Thameslink Class 700 - lack of USB/power facilities

[mmh]

USB was originally designed to be a universal connection (replacing serial/parallelFirewire ports etc.) but it has changed over the years and I think there are now 10 different types (including microUSB). Not to mention Apple's Lightning.

When does it all end? How could a train have truly universal charging points if there are so many different types of USB?

How long will it be until we have wireless charging?

You do what every supplier of USB power sockets does, provide a USB-A socket (the "socket" end that everybody is used to, their laptops and phone charger adapters will have one) and expect people to have the right cable to connect whatever it is they want to charge.

The only current theoretical change to that is USB-C to USB-C becoming commonplace, which won't happen in my lifetime, not least because its biggest proponent (Apple) will be reluctant to give up their business of selling 20p connectors for 20 quid while everyone else buys their cables in Poundland.

 

[londonteacher]

You do what every supplier of USB power sockets does, provide a USB-A socket (the "socket" end that everybody is used to, their laptops and phone charger adapters will have one) and expect people to have the right cable to connect whatever it is they want to charge.

The only current theoretical change to that is USB-C to USB-C becoming commonplace, which won't happen in my lifetime, not least because its biggest proponent (Apple) will be reluctant to give up their business of selling 20p connectors for 20 quid while everyone else buys their cables in Poundland.

Apple already is doing USB-C to HSBC in some devices. My Macbook Pro for example and some of the latest ipads and iPhones but not all.

 

[Bald Rick]

Unless we actually carry out a passenger census you or me won't know which one of our statements is nearest to the truth and if the vast majority of journeys on a 700 is sub 1 hour or not.

Well some of us do have access to passenger data. Clearly I’m not going to post it here, but I can say that the average journey time on Thameslink routes is well under 60 minutes. Indeed it’s under 30 minutes.

 

[SteveM70]

When does it all end? How could a train have truly universal charging points if there are so many different types of USB?

You provide a three pin plug socket, and the passenger has a suitable plug with him into which he plugs his cable of choice

 

[mmh]

Well some of us do have access to passenger data. Clearly I’m not going to post it here, but I can say that the average journey time on Thameslink routes is well under 60 minutes. Indeed it’s under 30 minutes.

What a strange sentence. "I'm clearly not going to say something, but I will." Meanwhile, I imagine most readers are perfectly aware of how averages work.

 

[bramling]

I suggest that the overlap in the venn diagram of

1) ‘number of times that a train is stranded for an hour or so by a fatality (or other reason)’ and
2) ‘my phone battery will die in that hour or so (but not before)’ and
3) ‘I have my charging cable / plug with me, but have neglected to charge the phone elsewhere previously’

... is negligibly small.



So no, I can’t see why.

Let’s be honest. For commuters, if you are leaving the house on the way to work without a fully charged phone, it’s your own fault. And if you have a job where you spend the day unable to charge (relatively unlikely, but no doubt it applies to some people, some of the time), then you take your own portable charger. Because otherwise you’d have to be pretty sure that you’d have enough battery for the whole day, but not enough for the commute home.

I see the 700 defence machine is switched up to the max tonight!

You make a perfectly good case for why sockets aren't *essential*. However I've outlined a real-life reason why they might be *useful*. Stuff like "if you leave the house without a fully charged phone, it's your own fault" smacks of rail users being a necessary irritant rather then valued customers.

For every time there's someone who needs to make a potentially quite important call during disruption, there will be plenty more who will value the facility to, for example, phone a relative to let them know their train is running a bit late (hardly unusual on Thameslink...), want to do something using other features of an iphone, or perhaps use their laptop that they didn't have an opportunity to charge, or whatever.

What did you do with the 319s / 377s / 387s?

What would you do if you commuted on just about any other line?

Which brings me to the next point, 700s are supposed to be better. There's already a body of opinion that they're several steps down from some of the trains which came before them in terms of comfort, introducing novel new features would have been one way of countering this. But no - indeed as you're essentially alluding to yourself they're no better than a 319. So much for three decades of progress.

 

[43096]

I see the 700 defence machine is switched up to the max tonight!

You make a perfectly good case for why sockets aren't *essential*. However I've outlined a real-life reason why they might be *useful*. Stuff like "if you leave the house without a fully charged phone, it's your own fault" smacks of rail users being a necessary irritant rather then valued customers.

It's the usual "the railway is always right and to hell with the customer" mentality.

The reality is that it's a DfT screw-up as they could have specified power sockets throughout and not just in first class. In the same way that they could have had WiFi cabling installed from the first unit, but chose not to. Siemens even asked (more than once) if they wanted the cabling for WiFi installing as it would be a lot cheaper than retro-fitting, but DfT decided not to. Then part way through the build DfT decided they wanted WiFi.

 

[AM9]

No. What he/she said was "I suspect most" (which is a subjective statment and I answered with another subjective statment).

Yes, passengers south of St Neots should have sub 1 hour journey providing they are travelling to London and not commuting to Gatwick Airport, which is entirely possible !

Unless we actually carry out a passenger census you or me won't know which one of our statements is nearest to the truth and if the vast majority of journeys on a 700 is sub 1 hour or not.

The actual and future projected average/mean journey time was known by the relevant TOCs (and presumably the DfT), when the class 700 trains were specified.
Bear in mind that the trains are used on both outer suburban and metro journeys, most of which take way less time than the runs out to the furthermost extremities. Journeys out to Huntingdon represent quite a small proportion of the total that the trains are providing and are thus not useful for assessing normal passenger needs.
This was all discussed years ago before the trains were in service. As I said above, I believe that it boiled down to something like 35 minutes for typical journey durations, e.g., the core to Stevenage/Luton, or Sutton/St Albans on metro runs.

 

[mmh]

I see the 700 defence machine is switched up to the max tonight!

You make a perfectly good case for why sockets aren't *essential*. However I've outlined a real-life reason why they might be *useful*. Stuff like "if you leave the house without a fully charged phone, it's your own fault" smacks of rail users being a necessary irritant rather then valued customers.

For every time there's someone who needs to make a potentially quite important call during disruption, there will be plenty more who will value the facility to, for example, phone a relative to let them know their train is running a bit late (hardly unusual on Thameslink...), want to do something using other features of an iphone, or perhaps use their laptop that they didn't have an opportunity to charge, or whatever.



Which brings me to the next point, 700s are supposed to be better. There's already a body of opinion that they're several steps down from some of the trains which came before them in terms of comfort, introducing novel new features would have been one way of countering this. But no - indeed as you're essentially alluding to yourself they're no better than a 319. So much for three decades of progress.

It is apparently OK because the average journey time on Thameslink is short. Because as we all know, all journeys are self-contained and people do not change trains. I'm afraid I find the "Thameslink is only used by London commuters" excuse so often repeated on the forum quite ridiculous. It's a large network, and if the only reason for its existence is for the operational benefit of the railway rather than passengers, can we have all that money it cost back please?

 

[Bald Rick]

I see the 700 defence machine is switched up to the max tonight!

Well, in my opinion the 700s are good trains, and do what they are designed to do very well. They are not perfect (no train is) - another couple of cm legroom in standard (airlines) wouldn’t go amiss, and I think there’s too much first class. But overall a good train. Certainly more comfortable than the 319s and 387s, and about level with the 377s. And a much better chance of getting on one (pre Covid).

But anyway, this is about the power. Yes, I can see how there might be circumstances where power would be needed. But - rarely. Very rarely. And I stand by what I said before - if you are leaving home for work without a full charge (or nearly so) - why? And why should ‘the railway’ come to the rescue? How far do we take it? Leaving home without breakfast so there should be a buffet car on every commuter train? Forgot to put the washing on, so I want a laundrette on every train? And so on (yes I’m being ridiculous, I know - but where do you draw the line?)

If it was up to me - it isn’t - commuter trains wouldn’t have ‘charger’ power on them, even at refurb. Nor WiFi. Why? Because it does cost money to provide and maintain, and it’s something else to go wrong - for passengers to think bad of the railway. Keep it simple.

I'm afraid I find the "Thameslink is only used by London commuters" excuse so often repeated on the forum quite ridiculous.

I don’t think that’s been said anywhere.

However it is true that a significant majority of journeys on Thameslink are (or at least were) by London commuters. And therefore that is what the trans were designed for.

 

[jfowkes]

What a strange sentence. "I'm clearly not going to say something, but I will." Meanwhile, I imagine most readers are perfectly aware of how averages work.

The sentence made perfect sense to me. @Bald Rick has access to data that they are not permitted to reveal any details about, but making a broad statement about average journey times is fine.

 

[bramling]

Well some of us do have access to passenger data. Clearly I’m not going to post it here, but I can say that the average journey time on Thameslink routes is well under 60 minutes. Indeed it’s under 30 minutes.

We’ve been here before on this. 30 minutes is irrelevant to someone who uses Thameslink from Hitchin to London, Letchworth to London, Baldock to London, Ashwell to London, Royston to London, Meldreth to London, Shepreth to London, Foxton to London, Cambridge to London, Arlesey to London, Biggleswade to London, Sandy to London, St Neots to London, Huntingdon to London, Welwyn Garden City to London, Welwyn North to London, Knebworth to London.

That’s a lot of real-life journeys, and is just one corner of the Thameslink operation - there’s plenty more such journeys elsewhere, and that’s before we look at those journeys which cross London.

It’s all very well mentioning how places like St Albans can fill endless numbers of 12-car trains for the 20-minute hop to London, however this means absolutely nothing to users from elsewhere. Or are St Albans users special?

 

[Steve Harris]

The actual and future projected average/mean journey time was known by the relevant TOCs (and presumably the DfT), when the class 700 trains were specified.
Bear in mind that the trains are used on both outer suburban and metro journeys, most of which take way less time than the runs out to the furthermost extremities. Journeys out to Huntingdon represent quite a small proportion of the total that the trains are providing and are thus not useful for assessing normal passenger needs.
This was all discussed years ago before the trains were in service. As I said above, I believe that it boiled down to something like 35 minutes for typical journey durations, e.g., the core to Stevenage/Luton, or Sutton/St Albans on metro runs.

So I'm not "a normal passenger" then? So it's fine that I can't plug my phone into a usb socket and I have to go and see a chiropractor weekly becuase the seats are so uncomfortable and give me backache?

Now there was me thinking the rail/bus/aerospace/transport industry was there to supply passenger journeys between 2 points with some degree of comfort, be that on a journey of 2 minutes or 5 hours. How silly of me to think that, let's go back to open top carriages and gettng cinders and smut in our eyes !! At least the passengers didn't complain then !

 

[BJames]

I suggest that the overlap in the venn diagram of

1) ‘number of times that a train is stranded for an hour or so by a fatality (or other reason)’ and
2) ‘my phone battery will die in that hour or so (but not before)’ and
3) ‘I have my charging cable / plug with me, but have neglected to charge the phone elsewhere previously’

... is negligibly small.



So no, I can’t see why.

Let’s be honest. For commuters, if you are leaving the house on the way to work without a fully charged phone, it’s your own fault. And if you have a job where you spend the day unable to charge (relatively unlikely, but no doubt it applies to some people, some of the time), then you take your own portable charger. Because otherwise you’d have to be pretty sure that you’d have enough battery for the whole day, but not enough for the commute home.



What did you do with the 319s / 377s / 387s?

What would you do if you commuted on just about any other line?

I am confused. Plug sockets are by their nature very obviously useful, I don't see how this is being argued against? E.g. see 710s 717s and as mentioned above even 377s now getting retrofitted (which I didn't know but am happy to hear). Using the argument of "we never used to need them/older rolling stock doesn't have them is trying to argue for a missing feature, not something that should not even be considered. Obviously, if I commuted on a line without a charging point, I wouldn't charge my device. If I commuted on a line with a charging port, I would. Do you not see why the option to charge your device is helpful?

Are they absolutely essential? Probably not, no. But how you are saying you can't see how they could be helpful to people to me just seems a bit like you think the railway should continue to adopt the attitude of "it's not my problem, why should we try and add convenient features to our rolling stock". This isn't the way to go, and certainly isn't the way to attract passengers back after the pandemic. The reality is, plug sockets and USB ports are helpful, I have used myself on commuter routes and see others doing so too (less so on 710s). It is not beyond the realms of possibility for people to need 700s for a relatively decent distance (e.g. Stevenage to Brighton), even if the majority use for shorter journeys. You surely can see why someone might need a charger here?

 

[Steve Harris]

We’ve been here before on this. 30 minutes is irrelevant to someone who uses Thameslink from Hitchin to London, Letchworth to London, Baldock to London, Ashwell to London, Royston to London, Meldreth to London, Shepreth to London, Foxton to London, Cambridge to London, Arlesey to London, Biggleswade to London, Sandy to London, St Neots to London, Huntingdon to London, Welwyn Garden City to London, Welwyn North to London, Knebworth to London.

That’s a lot of real-life journeys, and is just one corner of the Thameslink operation.

It’s all very well mentioning how places like St Albans can fill endless numbers of 12-car trains for the 20-minute hop to London, however this means absolutely nothing to users from elsewhere. Or are St Albans users special?

No their not special, their just "normal". While the rest of us just have to suffer becuase we are not normal aka. not average Joe.

 

[wellhouse]

How sad.

There are frequent threads exploring passenger on board facilities:

Power points
Catering
Toilets
Luggage storage
Wheelchair Accomodation
Bicycle storage
Pushchair Accommodation
Tables
First Class

Many responses follow the lines of 'I never need...' or on such a short journey' or 'most journeys are so short...' or just 'Why do people...?'

The reality is that passengers undertake numerous journeys with a variety of requirements, and that a respectable rail network should provide facilities to ease all their journeys as far as reasonably possible.

You may never take a bike on a train
You may never take a Pushchair on a train
You may never take large luggage on a train
You may wish to purchase hot food and/or drink on board more than an hour after the start of your journey
You may seldom spend more than 30 minutes on a train

But many do (or wish to do) some or all of the above. An issue that is often overlooked is that journeys can involve multiple connections on services that might in themselves be dismissed as 'local`, with minimal requirement for on board facilities, but perhaps passengers on such journeys should not be denied catering, or power points, or luggage storage just because their journey is not on a single train.

I'd like to think that Forum discussions serve to consider the requirements of all, rather than just ourselves

 

[bramling]

How sad.

There are frequent threads exploring passenger on board facilities:

Power points
Catering
Toilets
Luggage storage
Wheelchair Accomodation
Bicycle storage
Pushchair Accommodation
Tables
First Class

Many responses follow the lines of 'I never need...' or on such a short journey' or 'most journeys are so short...' or just 'Why do people...?'

The reality is that passengers undertake numerous journeys with a variety of requirements, and that a respectable rail network should provide facilities to ease all their journeys as far as reasonably possible.

You may never take a bike on a train
You may never take a Pushchair on a train
You may never take large luggage on a train
You may wish to purchase hot food and/or drink on board more than an hour after the start of your journey
You may seldom spend more than 30 minutes on a train

But many do (or wish to do) some or all of the above. An issue that is often overlooked is that journeys can involve multiple connections on services that might in themselves be dismissed as 'local`, with minimal requirement for on board facilities, but perhaps passengers on such journeys should not be denied catering, or power points, or luggage storage just because their journey is not on a single train.

I'd like to think that Forum discussions serve to consider the requirements of all, rather than just ourselves

One could put the above in slightly fewer words as “St Albans Thameslink users are only on the train for 20-25 minutes which isn’t long enough to be worth bothering to plug in a phone, and there’s quite a lot of St Albans users - so the whole of Thameslink should be designed around their exact needs, and stuff what everyone else might find useful”.

Or at least that’s how it feel like here some times!

 

[Robertj21a]

No. What he/she said was "I suspect most" (which is a subjective statment and I answered with another subjective statment).

Yes, passengers south of St Neots should have sub 1 hour journey providing they are travelling to London and not commuting to Gatwick Airport, which is entirely possible !

Unless we actually carry out a passenger census you or me won't know which one of our statements is nearest to the truth and if the vast majority of journeys on a 700 is sub 1 hour or not.

Do we really need an argument over such a silly issue?

 

[Fincra5]

With the increase in mobile ticketing, you'd think it would be wise to try and provide plugs or USB (B/C) on all trains... I've seen posters from Northern reminding passengers they must have charge, in order to show their ticket, or it can be a penalty fare.

It wouldn't be difficult to retrofit USB sockets (5v) at all. Just comes down to cost... Like the lack of Arm Rests or Fold Down Tables.

 

[Robertj21a]

With the increase in mobile ticketing, you'd think it would be wise to try and provide plugs or USB (B/C) on all trains... I've seen posters from Northern reminding passengers they must have charge, in order to show their ticket, or it can be a penalty fare.

It wouldn't be difficult to retrofit USB sockets (5v) at all. Just comes down to cost... Like the lack of Arm Rests or Fold Down Tables.

You'd also think it would be wise for passengers to ensure they have phones with some charge remaining, or at least carry a recharge unit with them!
Thameslink is hardly like a Penzance to Inverness trip.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I'd like my trains to have a socket to power my mobile phone. If it doesn't, it's not the end of the world.
However, the comment in #46 about Northern and penalty fares doesn't seem customer friendly. I wonder if there is a more customer friendly way of dealing with someone whose phone has failed?

 

[bramling]

You'd also think it would be wise for passengers to ensure they have phones with some charge remaining, or at least carry a recharge unit with them!
Thameslink is hardly like a Penzance to Inverness trip.

Whether it’s wise or not isn’t really the point. Bad or unforeseen stuff happens, and when it does it’s useful to have options. We keep hearing how the 700 is designed to suit the modern rail user after all. Given that other trains have them, as well as some competitors like coaches, benchmarked against other trains it’s rather remiss that the 700s don’t have them.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think I haven’t explained myself properly, as I’m trying to make two points. So I’ll have one last go, and then back out.

Point 1 is a matter of fact: when the Class 700s were specified, well over a decade ago, commuter trains did not come with power points (3 pin or USB) to all seats, if at all. There was little perceived need for them then, as the typical journey time is short. Yes there would be some longer journeys, and a very few over 90 minutes, but generally under 30. (As it happens, my commute on them was over 30 minutes, but that’s me). Because of the different jobs the Class 700 has to do - a combination of very high capacity commuting, intra-London short hops, and longer distance commuting - it is very much a train of compromises: seating arrangement, interior layout, info systems, standard of fittings, etc. And not having power, at the time of specification, was one of those compromises. Cost of provision would unquestionably have been part of it, on a fleet of over 1,000 vehicles it does add up. Some trains specified subsequently do have them - but they are newer...

Point 2 is a personal view of mine: I don’t understand why people need to charge stuff on commuter trains. I’ve read all the views above - and I’m sorry I still don’t understand! I can see why people might choose to, if they are provided, but that’s different. My view is different on long distance services.

 

[Fincra5]

You'd also think it would be wise for passengers to ensure they have phones with some charge remaining, or at least carry a recharge unit with them!
Thameslink is hardly like a Penzance to Inverness trip.

I agree but quite lot of people go for a day or night out in London, for example... So battery will be used. Sure you could carry a Recharge bank but they're bulky. Time has moved on since 700s were spec'd and really they should be upgraded! Even Northern 156s now have USBs (when all done)!

Also with the journey Times. Sure most are < 30mins in the Suburban areas but maybe the dynamic has changed. With a reduction on the BML for SN/GX more passenger may use TLK. Infact most passenger, even before, from Brighton would be going to Gatwick or Central London (STP is like1hr20).

Stuff happens. There's a reason 377s are getting plugs on all units...

 

[Steve Harris]

Do we really need an argument over such a silly issue?

Thanks for picking out only my post and no one elses when it's not just me who sees the point of quiet a lot of people travel on 700's for more than 30/35/60 minutes. You may think it's a silly argument but others may well think differently, that is what the forum is about I'm afraid (and I've seen far worse on here). If you don't like it why reply? Why not just report it (which the mod's are always repeatedly posting the message "don't reply, report").
Oh btw FYI your actually quoting the wrong post, as the "argument" started before that.

 

[C96]

Does the excuse of “average under 35 minute travel time” still stand now with fast charge allowing for adequate 50% charge in 30 minutes?

With mobile ticketing yes you may start your outbound ticket on a full charge but by the return journey, one may only have 1 hours battery left. Which doesn’t leave much room for use to display your ticket if you are delayed.

With the bus & coach operators using USB & charging as a selling point, does it not highlight this being something desired? (Even by short trip commuters on buses)

 

[AM9]

I agree but quite lot of people go for a day or night out in London, for example... So battery will be used. Sure you could carry a Recharge bank but they're bulky.

A 2 or 3 times phone capacity portable charger weighs about the same as a phone, so even for real wimps, hardly a problem if continuous battery draining phone use is so important to them.

Time has moved on since 700s were spec'd and really they should be upgraded! Even Northern 156s now have USBs (when all done)!

See below.

Also with the journey Times. Sure most are < 30mins in the Suburban areas but maybe the dynamic has changed. With a reduction on the BML for SN/GX more passenger may use TLK. Infact most passenger, even before, from Brighton would be going to Gatwick or Central London (STP is like1hr20).

I think you will find that Bald Rick's info about average journey times is valid up to at least March 2020.

Stuff happens. There's a reason 377s are getting plugs on all units...

377s, 156s and all the other classes of commuter trains being quoted as shining examples of retrofitted charging outlets, are at least halfway through their expected service life, (most of the refurb 377s are between 15 and 20 years old and even though they are not really commuter trains, the 156s are at least 32 years old so cosmetic changes are being added to eke out theoir remaining years' life. That involves withdrawing them from service which is luxury not available with the 700s as they are less than 6 years old. They might well have a mid-life update when they are about 15 years old so whatever is the fashion for charging phones in 10 years time could be fitted in then. Those passengers 'needing' that facility should keep a watch out for it, - it will probably be reported here well before the work is delivered.

Does the excuse of “average under 35 minute travel time” still stand now with fast charge allowing for adequate 50% charge in 30 minutes?

With mobile ticketing yes you may start your outbound ticket on a full charge but by the return journey, one may only have 1 hours battery left. Which doesn’t leave much room for use to display your ticket if you are delayed.

With the bus & coach operators using USB & charging as a selling point, does it not highlight this being something desired? (Even by short trip commuters on buses)

No it's nothing to do with the charge time, the discharge time on a genuine long distance journey is the issue. If bus operators choose to use charging facilities as a selling point, that's their marketing decision, and the passenger then has a clear choice if choosing between modes of public transport.

 

[Aictos]

I have commutes of around 20 mins usually 4 to 5 days a week so using a power plug on a Class 700 isn't much of a need however I do have a commute one day a week that's a 2.5hrs journey one way so I make the most of the power sockets on the Class 700 as I find them to be a useful bit of equipment. I just wish that for standardising that Siemens fitted power sockets to seats in Standard Class like they have with the Class 717s.

It's there so I use it, if the Class 700s didn't have power sockets I would simply just use a battery pack to charge any device.

 

[Domh245]

I think you will find that Bald Rick's info about average journey times is valid up to at least March 2020.

It's also a little bit useless. The relevant metric would be average journey time for seated passengers - the average of all journeys is dragged down by the vast numbers of short-distance standees, who rather obviously won't benefit from charging points under the seat.

I think anybody would struggle to justify the absence of charging points on the basis of "they're not needed" - whilst very few people have a genuine need for a charger even on the longer Thameslink services, some will have a genuine need for them, and others just appreciate the opportunity. It isn't so much about having a reason to provide chargers, so much as a reason not to provide them - it's almost expected that you can charge your device anywhere so long as you've bought the cable, so the railway not providing them just reflects badly.

The valid reason for the lack of chargers on the 700s was the spec - drawn up long before introduction and optimised for core dwell times* didn't include them, and doing a program to retrofit only chargers (or even more generously, chargers, seatback tables & WiFi) just doesn't make sense.

*stopping to have to unplug and pack away a USB cable will delay a person from getting off just as much as having to fold up an armrest - which was one of the reasons given for that choice of specification

 

[Bald Rick]

There's a reason 377s are getting plugs on all units...

Indeed - and that reason is that they were specified very recently for the refurbishment that is happening now. Class 700s were specified well over a decade ago and aren’t due for refurb anytime soon.

I agree but quite lot of people go for a day or night out in London, for example... So battery will be used. Sure you could carry a Recharge bank but they're bulky.

Ok... so why not charge it up wherever else you’re going to be? The restaurant, pub, theatre, sports arena, concert arena, etc etc. Because they don’t have them. Why should the train have to provide it and not these other places?