Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[hwl]

Train launch in news year plus I'm sure thoses of us internal to Thameslink have seen the good news as well.

As Westcoaster says more to come out next year but it's good news that many on here may join in on.

They get delivered before the 387s?

 

[Nym]

They get delivered before the 387s?

Yes, they're not being built in Derby...

Also, since 387s aren't really a new train theres near to sod all testing to do, doesn't mean either will work out of the box though.

 

[Bald Rick]

They actually started construction on the pre-series before the contract was completely signed off.

There's no pre-series; that's unit 1.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The ATO section is significantly smaller than that, it only includes the four core stations and London Bridge. The boundaries are east of London Bridge, north of Elephant, and immediately north of St Pancras on both branches, and there's no ATO on the ECML.

...and yes, the driver will definitely stay on board - as he'll still have control of the doors, and will start the train after each call.

Almost right; the ATO will be engaged / disengaged at Finsbury Park or just south thereof.

 

[anthony263]

Good to see the 1st unit is completed. I have a feeling we could see this in the UK sooner than we think.

All credit to Seimens they got on quietly in the background constructing this 1st unit before the contract was even signed

 

[Bald Rick]

It's not complete. Just photographable.

 

[Nym]

It's not complete. Just photographable.

The same could be said of most BT Stock when it's delivered...

Post Delivery Mods are part of the course on BT trains...

 

[WatcherZero]

There's no pre-series; that's unit 1.

Shell yes, they built and fitted the electronics and traction components temporarily to other classes under construction at their test centre for testing first though, suppose you cant really say pre-series, testbeds perhaps better word? Hitachi did similar testing components designed for the UK on other Japanese trains first.

 

[Class377/5]

Shell yes, they built and fitted the electronics and traction components temporarily to other classes for testing first though, suppose you cant really say pre-series, testbeds perhaps better word?

No that's unit 1. The pre series is separate.

The picture is of the first unit. Once you read the magazine you'll see it actually states this is the first unit for Thameslink not the pre series unit you seem to believe it is.

Btw the pre series unit used the Desiro City body shell.

They get delivered before the 387s?

No, the surprise info I mentioned was linked to the first unit but can't say more at the moment.

First 387 arrives at Southern in October 2014 with all 29 in service in May 2015. Tho any further delay to the 377s & 378s on order will delay this.

Yes, they're not being built in Derby...

Also, since 387s aren't really a new train theres near to sod all testing to do, doesn't mean either will work out of the box though.

First testing for the 387s began tonight with 379006 running around on WCML at 110mph.

The same could be said of most BT Stock when it's delivered...

Post Delivery Mods are part of the course on BT trains...

Bombardier prefers not to build units at its own risk but rather use its customers units. Examples of this is the 379 above and the news that 377701/702 are to be tested on the WCML at 110mph as well.

 

[Bayum]

From this recent video by Siemens, it looks like the first Desiro City Shell isn't too far off completion.

[youtube]e52sCc1YbnE&app=desktop[/youtube]

Unfortunately the video is 'set to private'

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just as a brief aside, one of my sons who knows that I also visit the SSC website to review current architectural world-wide threads, casually asked what I was viewing and I said it was the Desiro City construction progress thread.

"Oh, he says, what country is that in"...:roll:

Couldn't help laughing...

 

[swt_passenger]

Almost right; the ATO will be engaged / disengaged at Finsbury Park or just south thereof.

Oh! I was just going by the sketch in the NCN about the London Bridge works. They show that boundary to be just off the ECML towards the Canal tunnels. One of the points made in the text is that trains on the 'ordinary' part of the network should not have to transition into an ETCS or ATO area and back out again.

But I'm happy to accept that anything from NR more than a few days old is subject to change...

 

[Bald Rick]

Ahem. Slight correction

The first beacons for ETCS then ATO will be south of Finsbury Park on the ECML, to enable the train to start converting. However ATO itself will only be operating from the Canal Tunnels southwards.

That is until ETCS is rolled out on the ECML, then there is nothing on a technical basis that would stop ATO being used on the ECML.

On a related note, trains not fitted with ETCS and ATO will still be permitted into the TL Core, as the signals remain. As an example plenty of non ETCS trains will transit the ETCS / ATO area from Blackfriars to Elephant.

 

[Railengineer]

The ATO section is significantly smaller than that, it only includes the four core stations and London Bridge. The boundaries are east of London Bridge, north of Elephant, and immediately north of St Pancras on both branches, and there's no ATO on the ECML.

...and yes, the driver will definitely stay on board - as he'll still have control of the doors, and will start the train after each call.

This is the beginning of the end as far as train drivers are concerned...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyone know when the new SWT Desiro City units are scheduled for delivery?

 

[Manchester77]

They're not for south west trains they're for Thameslink aka First Capital Connect and their TSGN successors

 

[EE Andy b1]

This is the beginning of the end as far as train drivers are concerned...

Yep and wouldn't Boris just like that!

 

[Pumbaa]

This is the beginning of the end as far as train drivers are concerned...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyone know when the new SWT Desiro City units are scheduled for delivery?

The OJEU has only just gone out; give em half a chance!

 

[swt_passenger]

The OJEU has only just gone out; give em half a chance!

Indeed doesn't the actual wording in the SWT OJEU notice (it was subsequently posted in a thread here somewhere) also allow for the use of cascaded stock, never mind that they can't actually explicitly ask for Desiros.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a few years back now another tender was issued for SWT 'new stock', which everyone expected to be either 450s or 450 trailers, and that panned out as the 458/460 merger, and the 456 transfer...

 

[WatcherZero]

You sometimes see tenders reissued if they initially specify new stock but get a good (cheap) cascaded offer and decide to be more flexible or vice versa.

 

[Pumbaa]

Indeed doesn't the actual wording in the SWT OJEU notice (it was subsequently posted in a thread here somewhere) also allow for the use of cascaded stock, never mind that they can't actually explicitly ask for Desiros.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a few years back now another tender was issued for SWT 'new stock', which everyone expected to be either 450s or 450 trailers, and that panned out as the 458/460 merger, and the 456 transfer...

Yes - some of the already over allocated 319s being mooted in various pressers in the last few weeks .

I think it was probably craftily timed to make full use of the 2017-2019 direct award period, and its T+Cs, meaning that pretty much whatever funding they can squeeze out of DafT will determine what they go for.

But lets not be naive; ask anyone in the business what they'd prefer given an open choice, and I'd imagine the answer would be the new Desiro. SWT have a good relationship with Siemens, customers like them and they are a proven industry partner.

 

[D7666]

, trains not fitted with ETCS and ATO will still be permitted into the TL Core, as the signals remain. As an example plenty of non ETCS trains will transit the ETCS / ATO area from Blackfriars to Elephant.

Are you sure about that ???

The WHOLE reason Wimbledon Loop trains - currently part of TL but always removed from TL Program core to run to Blackfriars bays - were restored to TLP in 2013 was EXACTLY because they won't allow non ATO trains even into the bays never mind the junctions area south of BFR.

I'm sure I have read somewhere - NR perhaps in a media release - that suggested there will be no trains north of Loughborough Junction that are not ATO and not heading for the core , only exceptions are any residual trains for BFR bays but those will be all TL franchise and all by 700s.

AFAIR the ATO rule only even includes those current ECS trains from Victoria to Cannon Street via Blackfriars siding, they too must take another route, be ATO fitted, or not run at all.


--
Nick

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought the Wimbledon loop coming back into Thameslink was primarily explained as giving in to local 'stakeholders'.

But surely all the services to/from the bays are going to be transferred back to the Southeastern TOC, and there's no suggestion so far that they are going to be using 700s for any services?

 

[FOH]

I thought that signals were there as ETCS is overlayed and if there is an ETCS failure degraded ops can run using the signals and AWS/TPWS rather than to allow interworking.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does this stuff below make any sense to those who understand all the jargon? It's part of a Network Change notice (only published in mid October) for the Thameslink 'High Capacity Infrastructure' - (HCI) which I expect is another set of initials that will become more frequently mentioned...

3.3.7
For the Thameslink Programme, the coloured light signals throughout the Core Area and in the London Bridge design will remain in-situ and operational for use in the event of a failure or perturbation. Retention of lineside signalling will also allow access for stock not fitted with on-board ETCS equipment. Rules will need to be put in place to determine driver-signaller behaviour as a result of a failure to either sub-system.
3.3.8
The Thameslink Programme will also provide support for Automatic Train Operation (ATO) of the new Class 700 rolling stock within the ETCS area. The Thameslink Automatic Train Supervision System (ATSS) will pass information to the train to set dwell time and trip time to allow the ATO system to control the train with minimal intervention by the train driver.
3.3.9
It should be noted that the ETCS signalling system will only be available to ETCS-fitted trains and should have no impact on non-fitted stock, which can continue to operate using the conventional lineside signalling. ATO will also only be possible with ATO-fitted Class 700 rolling stock. Transition borders for ETCS and ATO will have no impact upon existing TPWS and AWS train protection systems.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ormal cppn/ncg52013tlp001 hci formal cppn.pdf

 

[Class377/5]

Are you sure about that ???

The WHOLE reason Wimbledon Loop trains - currently part of TL but always removed from TL Program core to run to Blackfriars bays - were restored to TLP in 2013 was EXACTLY because they won't allow non ATO trains even into the bays never mind the junctions area south of BFR.

I'm sure I have read somewhere - NR perhaps in a media release - that suggested there will be no trains north of Loughborough Junction that are not ATO and not heading for the core , only exceptions are any residual trains for BFR bays but those will be all TL franchise and all by 700s.

AFAIR the ATO rule only even includes those current ECS trains from Victoria to Cannon Street via Blackfriars siding, they too must take another route, be ATO fitted, or not run at all.


--
Nick

The Loop trains suggestion had nothing to do with ATO, it was to reduce crossing between the Herne Hill and Denmark Hill routes heading into the Core.

The NR brief quietly clearly showed the ATO area starting at Elephant but just because its in the area doesn't mean its being controlled by ATO. For instance platforms 1/2 at Elephant can have the class 700 with ATO running but driver control.

What you've confused with the Cannon Street ECS is the simply fact the WTO will be in control of trains from/to London Bridge platforms all the way to Blackfriars and north of Elephant & Castle.

Also the Core can handle cleared non ATO trains post 2018 but it cannot operate in 24tph+ capacity.

Considering that the bay platforms will be for exclusive use of Southeastern services in the long run, that the much the DfT have confirmed. No class 700 will run into and out of the bay platforms under the current proposal/ITT (not mentioned but that's part of the franchise bidding process).

Does this stuff below make any sense to those who understand all the jargon? It's part of a Network Change notice (only published in mid October) for the Thameslink 'High Capacity Infrastructure' - (HCI) which I expect is another set of initials that will become more frequently mentioned...

Basically it means that the ATO system kicks in under driver control. The principle is that the system runs in shadow mode virtually control the train until a certain point at which the driver inputs are over ridden and train go automatic. Same happens when leaving with the driver taking actions at a certain in shadow mode then then it transferred.

This is to allow a unit to do a quick check that the auto systems are working correctly prior to entering the Core section. If the unit fails to operate in shadow mode then its stopped prior to entering the Core and doesn't bugger the entire service up.

Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[transmanche]

This is the beginning of the end as far as train drivers are concerned...

Yep and wouldn't Boris just like that!

Well ATO is hardly anything new, Boris's Victoria line has been doing it since the 1960s.

 

[Bald Rick]

Are you sure about that ???

The WHOLE reason Wimbledon Loop trains - currently part of TL but always removed from TL Program core to run to Blackfriars bays - were restored to TLP in 2013 was EXACTLY because they won't allow non ATO trains even into the bays never mind the junctions area south of BFR.

I'm sure I have read somewhere - NR perhaps in a media release - that suggested there will be no trains north of Loughborough Junction that are not ATO and not heading for the core , only exceptions are any residual trains for BFR bays but those will be all TL franchise and all by 700s.

AFAIR the ATO rule only even includes those current ECS trains from Victoria to Cannon Street via Blackfriars siding, they too must take another route, be ATO fitted, or not run at all.


--
Nick

Absolutely certain, yes.

(and thank you Class 377/5 (700) and swt passenger for the supporting answers!)

 

[ert47]

AFAIR the ATO rule only even includes those current ECS trains from Victoria to Cannon Street via Blackfriars siding, they too must take another route, be ATO fitted, or not run at all.

Is the track that allows access to Cannon Street from the West going to be retained after reconstruction around Borough Market?

 

[Class377/5]

Is the track that allows access to Cannon Street from the West going to be retained after reconstruction around Borough Market?

For emergency use only, yes.

See here for track layout.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mackenzieblu/8032234584/in/set-72157608407909058

 

[Class377/5]

The 700 mock up has been officially announced as open to the public at the end of the month.

https://www.facebook.com/WhistleStopTour/posts/681147605240968:0

 

[anthony263]

Only between 1400-2000 on 29th January