Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[bramling]

I imagine that’s because Great Northern generally has a higher proportion of first class travel?
.

The Cambridge route may, but I’d be surprised if Peterborough does. Apart from railway staff on various forms of pass!

 

[sarahj]

700 at West Worthing

 

[Skimble19]

Yes. Whether a PF would stand up in that situation is another matter, however GN’s RPIs can be quite fussy about first class so it’s quite possible the matter would be pursued to at least some extent.

For the time being there will obviously be a fair bit of discretion being used but it won’t last forever, especially not once the PIS issue is sorted (whilst I would hope that wouldn't take long this is the railway so may be a while yet..!).

As bramling says I’m not too sure how you’d stand if a Passenger Host did try and PF you, but can’t say I would advise risking it, the first class is basically standard class on a 387 but in blue...

 

[Wivenswold]

I may well be misremembering, but I’m sure at some point the GN ones were earmarked for LTS to replace the 302s. In the event WAGN got 25 365s, but LTS only ever got 17 317/1s. Was LTS ever a serious plan, or am I just remembering rumours rather than actual intentions?

I worked in LTS Rail operations at the time. The original NSE plan was for Networkers on LTS from around the 1998/99 mark as part of a huge line upgrade. As preparations for Privatisation took priority, the Networker plan went quiet amid rumours it had been completely shelved for AC lines. That was until the GN batch was announced along with the plan to cascade 24 x 317/1s to LTS which would replace the remaining 30 Class 302s. Work started on platform edges long before the 317s started to trickle across and further changes (I seem to recall it might have been to do with StanEx losing its 322s) meant we only got 17. The 302s clung on until summer 1998.

 

[APUK002]

https://flic.kr/p/jAW8B3
Today I found this image,is it still correct,could be helpful for some

 

[darkrising101]

700 at West Worthing

Yeah I have seen a few go past Durrington this week toward Littlehampton. Saw this one this morning: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G11102/2017/11/08/advanced . Saw a couple a few months ago but they seem to be increasing testing on the Coastway West

 

[Hadders]

I travelled on the 0736 from Stevenage to Kings Cross on both Monday and Tuesday this week.

The screens in the rear 1st class section on Monday said it was declassified, on Tuesday 1st was in operation.

Passengers are not impressed. Many more people having to stand and those with seats found them less comfortable than the train they caught the previous week. Fewer doors for standard class passengers to board the train through. Managers I spoke to at Kings Cross told me that the 700s on the 0736 are likely to be a short term thing and it will revert to 365 operation in the future. It's a simple out and back diagram from the depot - no SDO or anything complicated.

Passengers I spoke with on Tuesday thought that the reason standard class ambiance is so poor is a ploy by the train company to drive up sales of 1st class tickets!!!

The 1742 from Kings Cross on Monday was cancelled due to disruption and I just missed in on Tuesday so enjoyed the comfort of a 365 on my journey home.

 

[Fincra5]

Can drivers reboot just the PIS or would they have to do a full train reboot to reboot the PIS?

Makes no difference when the actual PIS info is missing in Mitrac.

I did hear the new style announcements. Dire IMO. Really don't need the whole spiel of a stopping pattern to then be followed by "Welcome Aboard this southern service to.. the next station is" about 2 mins after you depart a station. To then have that welcome aboard message repeated every couple of mins until you get "We're now approaching..." Its annoying lol.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’d be happy if I was a first class customer though - much better first class than on a 387.

 

[bramling]

I travelled on the 0736 from Stevenage to Kings Cross on both Monday and Tuesday this week.

The screens in the rear 1st class section on Monday said it was declassified, on Tuesday 1st was in operation.

Passengers are not impressed. Many more people having to stand and those with seats found them less comfortable than the train they caught the previous week. Fewer doors for standard class passengers to board the train through. Managers I spoke to at Kings Cross told me that the 700s on the 0736 are likely to be a short term thing and it will revert to 365 operation in the future. It's a simple out and back diagram from the depot - no SDO or anything complicated.

Passengers I spoke with on Tuesday thought that the reason standard class ambiance is so poor is a ploy by the train company to drive up sales of 1st class tickets!!!

The 1742 from Kings Cross on Monday was cancelled due to disruption and I just missed in on Tuesday so enjoyed the comfort of a 365 on my journey home.

My neighbour took one home today and was fuming. He used a window airline seat and found it extremely cramped and uncomfortable. He also reports passengers were making unfavourable remarks to station staff upon leaving the train along the lines of tell your bosses we want the old trains back.

Many people, my neighbour being one, have moved to the area attracted by the quality of the rail service. Downgrading the quality of that services is not going to be taken well.

 

[Hadders]

My neighbour took one home today and was fuming. He used a window airline seat and found it extremely cramped and uncomfortable. He also reports passengers were making unfavourable remarks to station staff upon leaving the train along the lines of tell your bosses we want the old trains back.

Many people, my neighbour being one, have moved to the area attracted by the quality of the rail service. Downgrading the quality of that services is not going to be taken well.

This is all so predictable. We've been saying it on here for years so you'd have thought that GTR and the DfT might have realised. The interior of the 700s is unsuitable. A 365 style would have been better.

Promises of extra services won't wash as commuters will soon realise that no extra services in the peaks are proposed. And don't forget the complete removal of services between Stevenage and Hertford North.

I suspect MPs from constituencies along the Great Northern route will be receiving many complaints.

 

[Skimble19]

I’d be happy if I was a first class customer though - much better first class than on a 387.

That’s because first on a 387 is just standard with a little silly napkin on the top of your seat. 700s First Class may be better than 387s but it’s worse than a 365s....! (Other than the precious plug sockets of course)

 

[class387]

I’d be happy if I was a first class customer though - much better first class than on a 387.

I actually find 700 first class to be worse than standard. Seats are even harder, unsupportive, have an extremely short base and are completely upright.

387 first is basically standard class (which I find to be quite nice as standard), but 365 first is brilliant.

 

[Hadders]

It’s interesting that GTR chose to use a photo of 1st class from a 365 in their publicity for WiFi on the 387s. You’d have thought they would be keen to show off the new Trains...

 

[bengley]

Yeah I have seen a few go past Durrington this week toward Littlehampton. Saw this one this morning: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G11102/2017/11/08/advanced . Saw a couple a few months ago but they seem to be increasing testing on the Coastway West

They're not testing, they are driver training trains

 

[adamedwards]

Now we have 700s running which I am seeing most days overtaking my humble 313, what services will they be on next and when will we see the first 8 cars on GN?

 

[jon0844]

That’s because first on a 387 is just standard with a little silly napkin on the top of your seat. 700s First Class may be better than 387s but it’s worse than a 365s....! (Other than the precious plug sockets of course)

I actually like first class on the 700s as it's less cramped, but on TL everyone knows the rear is declassified and so it's often hard to get in - even on a train otherwise half empty. On a 365, at least most trains that are declassified aren't advertised and it's amazing how many don't know after all these years! (I think there's also the fact that the declassified services to WGC follow faster trains, so people will take the faster, busier, services than enjoy 'first class').

Do the KGX-WGC services in the peak use 387s at all?

 

[adamedwards]

1743 from Oakleigh Park to WGC is a 4 car 387 (1728 ex KX?). Usually very full!

 

[Failed Unit]

1743 from Oakleigh Park to WGC is a 4 car 387 (1728 ex KX?). Usually very full!

Although you can’t call it peak 1542 London - Welwyn and 1639 return is an 8 Car 387. Although getting a seat isn’t a problem on either.

Going the other way 0844 is one. (WGC - London).

I think in the morning the rest are 8 Car 365s with the exception of the ex Letchworth service which is a 6 Car 313.

 

[bramling]

I actually like first class on the 700s as it's less cramped, but on TL everyone knows the rear is declassified and so it's often hard to get in - even on a train otherwise half empty. On a 365, at least most trains that are declassified aren't advertised and it's amazing how many don't know after all these years! (I think there's also the fact that the declassified services to WGC follow faster trains, so people will take the faster, busier, services than enjoy 'first class').

Do the KGX-WGC services in the peak use 387s at all?

I make it as follows:

2Y83 0703 Welwyn Garden City – King’s Cross - 2x365
2Y85 0813 Welwyn Garden City – King’s Cross - 2x365
2Y87 0844 Welwyn Garden City – King’s Cross - 2x387
2Y89 0941 Welwyn Garden City – King’s Cross - 2x365
2Y91 1639 Welwyn Garden City – King’s Cross - 2x365

2V82 0848 King’s Cross – Welwyn Garden City - 2x365
2V84 1542 King’s Cross – Welwyn Garden City - 2x387
2V86 1658 King’s Cross – Welwyn Garden City - 1x387
2V88 1728 King’s Cross – Welwyn Garden City - 1x387
2V90 1758 King’s Cross – Welwyn Garden City - 2x365

Everything else is 313s, which is of course how it generally used to be when these services were XX52 & XX22 KX to Letchworth, and is presumably the reason why first has never been advertised. Having said that, 1652 KX to Letchworth was always something other than 313s, for many years it was 1x317, but it was also booked 1x365 for various timetables.

 

[MML]

Why are the 1658 and 1728 KX-WGC only formed of a single unit ?
Surely northbound paths during peak periods are at a premium, so 2x or 3x 4-car units should be used instead.
Will arrival of 700's allow strengthening of these services with additional 365 or 387 ?

 

[bramling]

Why are the 1658 and 1728 KX-WGC only formed of a single unit ?
Surely northbound paths during peak periods are at a premium, so 2x or 3x 4-car units should be used instead.
Will arrival of 700's allow strengthening of these services with additional 365 or 387 ?

When it was 317s/321s/365s, I suspect the reason was simply that there weren't any units available without taking something off another busier service, or reducing maintenance time for those spending the midday period in Hornsey.

A couple of timetables ago, it might just about, on paper, have been possible to bring the units for the 18:23 KX-Royston out earlier in time to work the 16:58, but reducing maintenance time. In the current timetable the latest off Hornsey forms the 18:12, which is a 12-car so less suitable.

There's less reason now, as there should be increasing numbers of spare units, although the extension of many Cambridge services to Ely in the May timetable did account for a slight increase in units. It seems GTR simply wish to leave everything alone for now.

Diagrams would need rewriting at present for the two services concerned, as being operated by 387s both diagrams involve substantial joining and attaching, so an undesiro couldn't be easily substituted, and nor could the whole 387 diagram simply be doubled up.

 

[notverydeep]

Although you can’t call it peak 1542 London - Welwyn and 1639 return is an 8 Car 387. Although getting a seat isn’t a problem on either.

Going the other way 0844 is one. (WGC - London).

I think in the morning the rest are 8 Car 365s with the exception of the ex Letchworth service which is a 6 Car 313.

In the evening (at least) 2V92 1828 King's Cross - WGC and 2V94 1858 King's Cross - WGC are 313 + 313 as these are interworked with Moorgate diagrams.

 

[Failed Unit]

Why are the 1658 and 1728 KX-WGC only formed of a single unit ?
Surely northbound paths during peak periods are at a premium, so 2x or 3x 4-car units should be used instead.
Will arrival of 700's allow strengthening of these services with additional 365 or 387 ?

They will be converted to 700s and go through the core. As all traffic will be on the slow line once we run through the core traffic will probably balance out more between the ones going further north. The time difference will be down to 5 minutes rather than getting caught as they do now.

 

[carriageline]

Today the first 700 travelled through the core in ETCS in service.

It was an ECS service, but it ran during the day, whilst the core was open, outside of a T3!

 

[Bald Rick]

Today the first 700 travelled through the core in ETCS in service.

It was an ECS service, but it ran during the day, whilst the core was open, outside of a T3!

Excellent news. Was it just ETCS, or was the ATO switched on as well? I presume the former.

 

[carriageline]

Just ETCS. I don’t believe the trains are quite ready for ATO just yet. A big milestone none the less!

 

[Bungle965]

I was in the rear coach of a 700 which was advertised as the doors not opening at Elephant and Castle, what happened at Elephant and Caste?
The doors opened.
Unfortunately I did not get a picture of it with the 'door not in use' sign.
Sam

 

[louis97]

Today the first 700 travelled through the core in ETCS in service.

It was an ECS service, but it ran during the day, whilst the core was open, outside of a T3!

I'm pretty certain one of the overnight passenger service ran through the core using ETCS a week or so ago. It certainly reported moving through the block marker train describer berths, something that would not happen if it was not using ETCS.

I'm not sure if this link will work but you can see the train in question running through the ETCS berths - they begin with 5. http://trackit.uppyjc.co.uk/TrackIT...utoRefresh=False&DisplayMode=TD&Detailed=True

 

[Via Bank]

I was in the rear coach of a 700 which was advertised as the doors not opening at Elephant and Castle, what happened at Elephant and Caste?
The doors opened.
Unfortunately I did not get a picture of it with the 'door not in use' sign.
Sam

I’ve heard an identical announcement twice today on trains that have stopped at (I believe) Burgess Hill and Wivelsfield. All throughout the train.

This sounds like a defect.