Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I second that, Networkers really are dreadful.

Considering the role that they have been designed for, the 700s really aren't too bad.

Agreed. I’ve preferred them to every train they’ve replaced:

Class 317 - 3x2 seating
Class 319 - one word - Yuck!
Class 321 - 3x2 seating
Class 365 - Overated. Seats too thin. Has an old feel to it inside.

 

[jon0844]

Seats too thin on a 365? Are you sure you've been on one? And they look and feel like far more modern stock, especially in their current 'trim level'.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Seats too thin on a 365? Are you sure you've been on one? And they look and feel like far more modern stock, especially in their current 'trim level'.

This irrelevant conversation about my past experiences on 365s has popped up too many times and I don’t wish to have it again, so I will close it with a brief, yes - quite a few times since the GN refurb - i think it’s the PIS that makes it look dated it’s like the one on SE Networkers from years and years ago.

 

[Failed Unit]

Seats too thin on a 365? Are you sure you've been on one? And they look and feel like far more modern stock, especially in their current 'trim level'.

Yep. The ones with the 3+2 seating in them.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yep. The ones with the 3+2 seating in them.

Haha.

 

[jon0844]

This irrelevant conversation about my past experiences on 365s has popped up too many times and I don’t wish to have it again, so I will close it with a brief, yes - quite a few times since the GN refurb - i think it’s the PIS that makes it look dated it’s like the one on SE Networkers from years and years ago.

They have an all-new system, with new displays inside and out, new recordings and a bunch of other features.

Admittedly a few haven't been upgraded (I assume those going off lease - although I think even quite a few of those going have been done too, presumably so whoever leases them later will get the new system from day one) but we're talking about a year for many of them.

Plus the new toilets which I doubt you could have any complaints about as they're pretty decent for ANY train (including a pre-wash feature on the toilet).

Seriously, the 365s have aged spectacularly well in my view.

 

[samuelmorris]

This irrelevant conversation about my past experiences on 365s has popped up too many times and I don’t wish to have it again, so I will close it with a brief, yes - quite a few times since the GN refurb - i think it’s the PIS that makes it look dated it’s like the one on SE Networkers from years and years ago.

To be honest, it's not a popular opinion. You're perfectly entitled to it, but keep bringing it up is going to keep provoking responses like that, you may as well keep quiet about it :P I've probably been on a 365 maybe once or twice in my life so I can't really judge. 465 seats, if they're similar, are firm by old unit standards, but very plush compared to those on a 700.
Levels of comfort on different rolling stock is a fairly divisive subject, I don't mind 700s apart from the horrific legroom, but plenty of other people hate almost everything about them.

 

[Hadders]

Class 365 - Overated. Seats too thin. Has an old feel to it inside.

Really? Are these the same trains you think have got 3+2 seats Are you sure you've been on one?

If the seats on 365s are too thin then how would you describe those on a 700?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Really? Are these the same trains you think have got 3+2 seats Are you sure you've been on one?

If the seats on 365s are too thin then how would you describe those on a 700?

If you want to compare trains start a new thread. I’ll get in trouble if I answer irrelevant questions.

Oh and see post 8975...

 

[jon0844]

If you want to compare trains start a new thread. I’ll get in trouble if I answer irrelevant questions.

Oh and see post 8975...

What about 8971 where you compare trains?

 

[bramling]

Bloody hell, if it's like that at 1100 I hate to think what it's like in the peak!

A lot better in the peak, as longer trains run.

The weekend issue is simply that weekend travel has skyrocketed in the last decade, yet this particular service hasn’t had any extra capacity provided. It still has 4-car trains which were only just about adequate in the 1990s.

I’ve never really understood what has caused weekend travel to increase in the way that it has.

 

[Class465fan]

This irrelevant conversation about my past experiences on 365s has popped up too many times and I don’t wish to have it again, so I will close it with a brief, yes - quite a few times since the GN refurb - i think it’s the PIS that makes it look dated it’s like the one on SE Networkers from years and years ago.

And saying that they have 3+2 seating arrangement proves us that you have never travelled on one before. Class 365's never had 3+2 seating arrangement and was always 2+2.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

A lot better in the peak, as longer trains run.

The weekend issue is simply that weekend travel has skyrocketed in the last decade, yet this particular service hasn’t had any extra capacity provided. It still has 4-car trains which were only just about adequate in the 1990s.

I’ve never really understood what has caused weekend travel to increase in the way that it has.

i think one of the factors in this increase has to be the easy access to real-time information via, in more recent years, smartphone apps.

People who had a choice of car or train would - in the old days - only need a couple of experiences of turning up at the station to find the service disrupted to make them think 'why take the risk associated with the train?'
When you can see in real time that your train IS running, and what time to expect it, perhaps you're more likely to set off for the station, rather than drive to London ?

 

[superalbs]

i think one of the factors in this increase has to be the easy access to real-time information via, in more recent years, smartphone apps.

People who had a choice of car or train would - in the old days - only need a couple of experiences of turning up at the station to find the service disrupted to make them think 'why take the risk associated with the train?'
When you can see in real time that your train IS running, and what time to expect it, perhaps you're more likely to set off for the station, rather than drive to London ?

Parking costs a lot, therefore some families would probably be more likely to take the train for days out, which also allows them to relax on the journey.

 

[Failed Unit]

Parking costs a lot, therefore some families would probably be more likely to take the train for days out, which also allows them to relax on the journey.

I suspect traffic getting worse as well. I have 3 choices to get into London. 1. drive all the way, 2 drive to nearest tube station or 3. Train. Increased traffic certainly pushes towards 3.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And saying that they have 3+2 seating arrangement proves us that you have never travelled on one before. Class 365's never had 3+2 seating arrangement and was always 2+2.

Right. Let’s just clear this up now. I have been on a 365 numerous times for the short hop between Kings Cross and Finsbury Park in order to get some GN stock done. I made a mistake with the 3x2 ages ago. The pull down trays have been dirty every time, the PIS board looks dated and first class is what I can travel in with a Standard class ticket on a GWR turbo.

700s have a more open atmosphere, a modern PIS, less cramped, supportive seats (I quite like the ironing board seats believe it or not) and I do like first class as well. That has more space than on the 365s too. You are also crammed into four cars with no gangway on those, unlike with a 12 car walk through 700.

 

[Failed Unit]

700s have a more open atmosphere, a modern PIS, less cramped, supportive seats (I quite like the ironing board seats believe it or not) and I do like first class as well. That has more space than on the 365s too. You are also crammed into four cars with no gangway on those, unlike with a 12 car walk through 700.

Would recommend you look at first class on a 365. One of the best on the network. But in terms of capacity you are comparing apples and lemons.

The fact that 4 coach shoulder peak / weekend services will be a thing of the past is why I am looking forward to the 700s.

However in the peak they have less seats than anything before them. I would rather have a seat on a 317 then stand on anything else. Which is the experience most great northern users have. Example 0727 WGC to kings cross. 317 everyone who wanted a seat got one. Modern stock lots standing. We will see what happens when they are introduced. We will have winners and losers. On the services that have gone people at St Neots want the 365s back because and seat is better than standing. They don’t like the units because of capacity reduction. PIS open coaches etc are not important to those users. Capacity is. Of the seating kind.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Would recommend you look at first class on a 365. One of the best on the network. But in terms of capacity you are comparing apples and lemons.

The fact that 4 coach shoulder peak / weekend services will be a thing of the past is why I am looking forward to the 700s.

However in the peak they have less seats than anything before them. I would rather have a seat on a 317 then stand on anything else. Which is the experience most great northern users have. Example 0727 WGC to kings cross. 317 everyone who wanted a seat got one. Modern stock lots standing. We will see what happens when they are introduced. We will have winners and losers. On the services that have gone people at St Neots want the 365s back because and seat is better than standing. They don’t like the units because of capacity reduction. PIS open coaches etc are not important to those users. Capacity is. Of the seating kind.

I’ve just written about first class on a 365, so obviously I’ve already seen it! It’s the same as GWR 166 first class and it’s very nice - for Standard, which it now is on 165s (albeit a smaller table) and one end of a 166 (both ends on Bristol services)

 

[Skimble19]

Right. Let’s just clear this up now. I have been on a 365 numerous times for the short hop between Kings Cross and Finsbury Park in order to get some GN stock done. I made a mistake with the 3x2 ages ago. The pull down trays have been dirty every time, the PIS board looks dated and first class is what I can travel in with a Standard class ticket on a GWR turbo.

700s have a more open atmosphere, a modern PIS, less cramped, supportive seats (I quite like the ironing board seats believe it or not) and I do like first class as well. That has more space than on the 365s too. You are also crammed into four cars with no gangway on those, unlike with a 12 car walk through 700.

Can’t help but chuckle at this. A quick 5 minute hop (if that!) between Finsbury and Kings Cross is hardly enough time to judge anything, let alone base an entire opinion on.. but, to answer your points:

-The pull down tables are rarely dirty but then you can blame the passengers who make them dirty rather than the design for that, hardly a fault of the train.
-The PIS is new and has been recently replaced internally and externally.
-The first class is a proper commuter first class unlike any other GN stock including 700s, you can only travel in it on GWR as the area has been declassified and they haven’t changed the seats...!

-The 700 PIS is good when it works, unfortunately that’s not overly common at the moment on GN (or TL based on the constant complaints ), although in my opinion there is too much nonsense on it and I’d rather have a simpler system.
-less cramped?! You must be joking, the seats are squashed against the wall and against each other, with a lovely duct to get in the way on the window side.
-The 700 First Class is basically standard class on a 387 (where ironically First is exactly the same as standard but with a bit of cloth on the seat) and a massive amount of space wasted.

I won’t comment any more on this as it’s a waste of time, as it appears a number of others have realised..

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Can’t help but chuckle at this. A quick 5 minute hop (if that!) between Finsbury and Kings Cross is hardly enough time to judge anything, let alone base an entire opinion on.. but, to answer your points:

-The pull down tables are rarely dirty but then you can blame the passengers who make them dirty rather than the design for that, hardly a fault of the train.
-The PIS is new and has been recently replaced internally and externally.
-The first class is a proper commuter first class unlike any other GN stock including 700s, you can only travel in it on GWR as the area has been declassified and they haven’t changed the seats...!

-The 700 PIS is good when it works, unfortunately that’s not overly common at the moment on GN (or TL based on the constant complaints ), although in my opinion there is too much nonsense on it and I’d rather have a simpler system.
-less cramped?! You must be joking, the seats are squashed against the wall and against each other, with a lovely duct to get in the way on the window side.
-The 700 First Class is basically standard class on a 387 (where ironically First is exactly the same as standard but with a bit of cloth on the seat)

I won’t comment any more on this as it’s a waste of time, as it appears a number of others have realised..

Yes a five minute hop but I’ve done it absolutely loads of times!

 

[class387]

This irrelevant conversation about my past experiences on 365s has popped up too many times and I don’t wish to have it again, so I will close it with a brief, yes - quite a few times since the GN refurb - i think it’s the PIS that makes it look dated it’s like the one on SE Networkers from years and years ago.

What happened to not being controversial anymore?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Anyway, how is that controversial?

 

[class387]

Anyway, how is that controversial?

365s are (quite rightly) a EMU favourite of this forum as well as GN commuters, so to criticize them, especially without solid reasons, will naturally annoy people.

 

[jon0844]

365s are (quite rightly) a EMU favourite of this forum as well as GN commuters, so to criticize them, especially without solid reasons, will naturally annoy people.

There are things you can genuinely moan about, like the windows that often don't shut properly, the hopper vents that often don't work, the dumbed down interior, the mismatch of carpeting and vinyl flooring in the past, unreliable PIS (not really an issue with the new system, but it's not always on), lack of CCTV for security, no Wi-Fi or aircon.

I think the 365s are excellent trains and wish more had been built, but l would only moan about things actually worth moaning about. The seats are certainly not wafer thin, especially compared to modern seating. First class is also very nice, if rather small and tricky to use the airline seats.

 

[class387]

There are things you can genuinely moan about, like the windows that often don't shut properly, the hopper vents that often don't work, the dumbed down interior, the mismatch of carpeting and vinyl flooring in the past, unreliable PIS (not really an issue with the new system, but it's not always on), lack of CCTV for security, no Wi-Fi or aircon.

I think the 365s are excellent trains and wish more had been built, but l would only moan about things actually worth moaning about. The seats are certainly not wafer thin, especially compared to modern seating. First class is also very nice, if rather small and tricky to use the airline seats.

Agreed about the windows. I think the reason the new PIS is not switched on is when they are in a formation with unmodified ones, or to some extent drivers that have gotten used to the old PIS.

As a GN and TL commuter, I have never had any major problems with them. They are definitely my favourite GTR units if not my favourite BR built units. I love the spacious, yet comfortable interior, the brilliant compromise between outer and inner suburban and from an enthusiast's perspective the sounds of the GTO inverters. I was actually quite disappointed to find my (quiet) train changed from 1x365 to 2x387.

 

[jon0844]

Agreed about the windows. I think the reason the new PIS is not switched on is when they are in a formation with unmodified ones, or to some extent drivers that have gotten used to the old PIS.

As a GN and TL commuter, I have never had any major problems with them. They are definitely my favourite GTR units if not my favourite BR built units. I love the spacious, yet comfortable interior, the brilliant compromise between outer and inner suburban and from an enthusiast's perspective the sounds of the GTO inverters. I was actually quite disappointed to find my (quiet) train changed from 1x365 to 2x387.

Yes, an old system and new system won't work (2 units or more) but I think on some they're simply not set up, or broken. I've been on 4 car sets with the screens off entirely (inside and out).

I think when there was a new and old system hooked up, they just said 'Great Northern' and nothing else. Not seen any train saying Great Northern for weeks. Not sure I've seen any trains with the old displays either, so maybe they're all done now?

 

[Skimble19]

Yes, an old system and new system won't work (2 units or more) but I think on some they're simply not set up, or broken. I've been on 4 car sets with the screens off entirely (inside and out).

I think when there was a new and old system hooked up, they just said 'Great Northern' and nothing else. Not seen any train saying Great Northern for weeks. Not sure I've seen any trains with the old displays either, so maybe they're all done now?

Definitely not quite all done yet, West Anglia Great Northen is still alive as of a week or two ago on at least one unit

GN Commuters are still very unimpressed with the 700s, some are now actively avoiding them and swapping trains (probably wise at the moment though to be entirely honest!)

 

[urpert]

To be honest, it's not a popular opinion. You're perfectly entitled to it, but keep bringing it up is going to keep provoking responses like that, you may as well keep quiet about it :P I've probably been on a 365 maybe once or twice in my life so I can't really judge. 465 seats, if they're similar, are firm by old unit standards, but very plush compared to those on a 700.
Levels of comfort on different rolling stock is a fairly divisive subject, I don't mind 700s apart from the horrific legroom, but plenty of other people hate almost everything about them.

My issue with the 465s is the combination of low seat height and terrible pitch in the airline seats, making them incredibly uncomfortable for anyone approaching 6’.

 

[bramling]

GN Commuters are still very unimpressed with the 700s, some are now actively avoiding them and swapping trains (probably wise at the moment though to be entirely honest!)

One can say that again. Speaking to staff at my local station, they say they have received a lot of negative feedback from people who have come off the trains. "Tell your bosses we want the old trains back" is the basic gist of it. All entirely predictable of course.

 

[Hadders]

Definitely not quite all done yet, West Anglia Great Northen is still alive as of a week or two ago on at least one unit

GN Commuters are still very unimpressed with the 700s, some are now actively avoiding them and swapping trains (probably wise at the moment though to be entirely honest!)

Ah the original announcement:

'Welcome aboard the West Anglia Great Northern service to Peterborough calling at Finsbury Park, Stevenage, Hitchin, Arlesey, Biggleswade, Sandy, St Neots, Huntingdon AND Peterborough'.

Then there southbound one 'This train is for bLondon Kings Cross'

One can say that again. Speaking to staff at my local station, they say they have received a lot of negative feedback from people who have come off the trains. "Tell your bosses we want the old trains back" is the basic gist of it. All entirely predictable of course.

I've yet to hear anyone on the 0736 from Stevenage say they prefer the new train compared to the 365s.