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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

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bramling

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Ah the original announcement:

'Welcome aboard the West Anglia Great Northern service to Peterborough calling at Finsbury Park, Stevenage, Hitchin, Arlesey, Biggleswade, Sandy, St Neots, Huntingdon AND Peterborough'.

Then there southbound one 'This train is for bLondon Kings Cross' :D

It's a shame no one has ever been able to make a recording of all the original 365 messages. Some of the manually selected messages are quite quaintly old-fashioned, like the one about how to use the door open buttons!

I've yet to hear anyone on the 0736 from Stevenage say they prefer the new train compared to the 365s.
[/QUOTE]

Sssshh, mustn't criticise the class 700s... My local paper is also filled with a few non-complimentary letters about them, mainly focusing on the uncomfortable and cramped seating, and the lack of seat availability on them.
 
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D365

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It's a shame no one has ever been able to make a recording of all the original 365 messages. Some of the manually selected messages are quite quaintly old-fashioned, like the one about how to use the door open buttons!

Didn’t you guys keep hold of the floppies? ;)
 

Hadders

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It's a shame no one has ever been able to make a recording of all the original 365 messages. Some of the manually selected messages are quite quaintly old-fashioned, like the one about how to use the door open buttons!

The original messages were sort of reassuring. Get on the train at Kings Cross after a night out and it was reassuring to hear the announcement - I think it's ingrained on my mind! :D Was never the same after FCC got the franchise and the announcement simply said 'This train is for Cambridge, via Stevenage'.

I agree about the manually selected messages. I can't say I remember the one about door buttons but upon arrival at Kings Cross one day the announcement said 'This train is empty to the depot'.

Didn’t you guys keep hold of the floppies? ;)

Rumour has it that FCC lost the floppies. Amazing really that the system lasted unaltered for 20 years.
 

Mikey C

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Seeing that everyone else has had their opinion, to me the 700s feel like inner London units, rather than something to be used on longer commutes, but that's the compromise which has made the units slightly flawed.

The heating ducts seemed rather intrusive for window seats, are they actually larger or is it just the position of the window seats?
 

bramling

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Seeing that everyone else has had their opinion, to me the 700s feel like inner London units, rather than something to be used on longer commutes, but that's the compromise which has made the units slightly flawed.

The heating ducts seemed rather intrusive for window seats, are they actually larger or is it just the position of the window seats?

As a London inner suburban train they’re not so bad, although the seating comfort is still way below acceptable. It should be possible to find a seat design which is agreeable to more people, plus the legroom is inadequate especially in the window seats.

The problem is that Cambridge, Peterborough, Littlehampton, Horsham, Brighton etc are not inner suburban. Quite simply people expect something different and better for these sorts of journeys - maximum chance of a reasonably comfortable seat. Not really too much to ask is it?
 

Failed Unit

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Sssshh, mustn't criticise the class 700s... My local paper is also filled with a few non-complimentary letters about them, mainly focusing on the uncomfortable and cramped seating, and the lack of seat availability on them.

Must admit I have seen very little complementary about the new trains. (I guess introducing them in the autumn the don’t have the “at least they are air conditioned line the 387s got”) most people are complaining about yet more reductions in capacity. Great northern respond with when (if) Thameslink is completed we will get more capacity.

Makes me wonder if the reaction would be more positive if they had replaced 8 coach 365s with 12 coach 700s Or 4 coaches with 8 so passengers see an improvement.

Now it is many people who previously got a seat need to stand for 40 mins. Own goal really.
 

MML

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Travelled again yesterday on 700 for an hour and a half. Was ready to get off.
Airline window seat with limited space at floor level resulted in feet and legs slightly twisted due to ducting. Seats rock hard. Such an opportunity to improve the level of customer experience and totally missed.

Probably acceptable on the 8-car units used for the shorter inner-suburban services such as St.Albans to Sutton where journey time more often 30 minutes. But the 12-car units used on Bedford-Brighton runs really are not fit for purpose.
I was even looking to see whether the seats on the 12-car units could be adjusted to move them 1-2 inches away from the window. That would at least minimise the impact of the floor level ducting.

If they really want to improve capacity, increase the length of platforms to allow 8-car units to be extended to a common 12-car unit. And for the addition 4 carriages fit some comfortable seating with decent seat pitch.
 

J-2739

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I suppose a 365 configuration would have not been hard to work into (though I don't mind the 700 seats), but what has been done, has been done.

I don't believe that the 700s are perfect trains, but I do agree that the 365s are a bit overrated, controversial or not...
 

APUK002

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They have an all-new system, with new displays inside and out, new recordings and a bunch of other features.

Admittedly a few haven't been upgraded (I assume those going off lease - although I think even quite a few of those going have been done too, presumably so whoever leases them later will get the new system from day one) but we're talking about a year for many of them.

Plus the new toilets which I doubt you could have any complaints about as they're pretty decent for ANY train (including a pre-wash feature on the toilet).

Seriously, the 365s have aged spectacularly well in my view.
I like the fully refurb units
 

jon0844

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It's a shame no one has ever been able to make a recording of all the original 365 messages. Some of the manually selected messages are quite quaintly old-fashioned, like the one about how to use the door open buttons!

There's one about the hustle alarm too, and I think also about keeping seats free and/or using luggage racks.

Earlier this week, I was on a GN 387 that had a few messages I'd not heard before. One about 'in this hot weather....' that had the train laughing - it wasn't hot - and told people about not using the alarm if you feel unwell, but to get off at a station for help, followed by a request to move bags and coats from seats and then to move down to let other people on. The driver did that one two or three times and NOBODY took a blind bit of notice even though the train was busy.

I sort of pictured the driver scrolling through a list in the cab and picking random ones for fun!
 

Hadders

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The 365 interior is pretty much ideal for the type of services they operate:

- 2+2 seating throughout that gives a decent amount of standing space in the aisles
- Seats with a small gap between them and the side of the train so that passengers feet don’t get in the way of the heating duct
- No arm rests to slow down boarding and alighting
- Small tables to aid speedy boarding and alighting
- Airline style seats have a seat back table
- Decent seats (the padding is actually not as think as it looks due to a recess in the backs of thebseatsvthat adds about half an inch to the leg room
- Small first class compartments with a degree of privacy at each end of the train so it is always in a consistent position, regardless of which way round the train is
- Two doors per carriage which are all available for use by standard class passengers
- Large windows with good seat alignment.

What could be improved:

- Air conditioning
- Slightly wider doors
- Larger vestibule area for standing (which could be achieved by removing a set of seats nearest the doors as done in some of the refreshed trains)
- Larger bins

Considering the 365s are over 20 years old they really have stood the test of time. If the 700s has a 365 style layout with my suggestions they would have been superb Trains and so much better than what we’ve ended up with. We really shouldn’t have fewer seats in a class 700 when you consider there is more space due to them being walk through and up to four fewer drivers cabs per train.
 
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The 700s are by no stretch perfect and I understand the intentions and what they were trying to acheive with having the maximum capacity possible so they can last the next 30 or so years but it all depends on if Passenger growth continuities to grow... working habits are changing more people are working remotely or from home and flexible hours and that will only continue
 

bramling

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The 700s are by no stretch perfect and I understand the intentions and what they were trying to acheive with having the maximum capacity possible so they can last the next 30 or so years but it all depends on if Passenger growth continuities to grow... working habits are changing more people are working remotely or from home and flexible hours and that will only continue

One thing which irritates is we keep hearing on here about how the trains are designed for future demand, which may not actually materialise. Modern modular trains are designed so things like seating layouts can be altered relatively easily. There’s simply no need for the cramped and uncomfortable interior layout.
 

class387

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I always think that Thameslink/DfT should have specced seperately for the 8 and 12 car units. The RLUs could have their cheap, awful interior, possibly even standard class only, while the FLUs should have been given tables, more legroom and bays, plug sockets etc. But that would cost money...
 

absolutelymilk

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One thing which irritates is we keep hearing on here about how the trains are designed for future demand, which may not actually materialise. Modern modular trains are designed so things like seating layouts can be altered relatively easily. There’s simply no need for the cramped and uncomfortable interior layout.
If this demand was predicted for more than ten years away then I would agree, but IMO the high capacity layout will be needed in the next couple of years, especially as we won't see 24tph straight away.
 

Goldfish62

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The 700s are by no stretch perfect and I understand the intentions and what they were trying to acheive with having the maximum capacity possible so they can last the next 30 or so years but it all depends on if Passenger growth continuities to grow... working habits are changing more people are working remotely or from home and flexible hours and that will only continue
Agreed. South of the river, especially on South Western, there has been a huge decline in passenger numbers over the past year. Part of that must be due to flexible working. The economic outlook is not good either, which is likely to impact on passenger numbers.

The excuse used for nasty cramped trains is that they are a compromise to allow for future growth. If growth goes negative will we see better appointed new trains with more comfortable and better spaced seats? I doubt it. We'll just have the same level of discomfort in a shorter or less frequent train.
 

Hadders

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I always think that Thameslink/DfT should have specced seperately for the 8 and 12 car units. The RLUs could have their cheap, awful interior, possibly even standard class only, while the FLUs should have been given tables, more legroom and bays, plug sockets etc. But that would cost money...

But the 8-car units aren’t exclusive to inner suburban services. They will travel as far as Bedford, Peterborough and Cambridge.
 

jon0844

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If passenger numbers do fall, more people will get a seat so it's not all bad news.

365s also nicely roast your leg in a window seat by the way. They're pretty close to the wall, just not as much as a 700.
 

D365

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It most certainly. The majority of services on the GN side will be 8-car.

The majority of class 700s are 8-car not 12....

Aren't the majority of these 8-car Class 700 services going to be the Cambridge and WGC stoppers?
 

387star

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No coat hangers ? No problem bring a coat hook! The rivets under the overhead luggage racks are being put to good purpose by one passenger
 

387star

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There's one about the hustle alarm too, and I think also about keeping seats free and/or using luggage racks.

Earlier this week, I was on a GN 387 that had a few messages I'd not heard before. One about 'in this hot weather....' that had the train laughing - it wasn't hot - and told people about not using the alarm if you feel unwell, but to get off at a station for help, followed by a request to move bags and coats from seats and then to move down to let other people on. The driver did that one two or three times and NOBODY took a blind bit of notice even though the train was busy.

I sort of pictured the driver scrolling through a list in the cab and picking random ones for fun!

when will.the 387s receive blue doors ?
 

class387

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But the 8-car units aren’t exclusive to inner suburban services. They will travel as far as Bedford, Peterborough and Cambridge.
And there lies yet another problem with the Thameslink programme...
 

Hadders

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Aren't the majority of these 8-car Class 700 services going to be the Cambridge and WGC stoppers?

Cambridge cruiser services will be 387s. The remaining Cambridge services will be 8-car. These aren’t all stoppers as many are fast from Stevenage.

There is a large increase in the number of trains running off Peak but no more can be run in the peaks as the line is at capacity.
 

Minstral25

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Cambridge cruiser services will be 387s. The remaining Cambridge services will be 8-car. These aren’t all stoppers as many are fast from Stevenage.

There is a large increase in the number of trains running off Peak but no more can be run in the peaks as the line is at capacity.

I thought that the main line services are all 12 car, which would make Cambridge to Brighton services 12 car as well as Peterborough to Horsham services 12 car. Actually I assume that means Peterborough will only be served by 12 car trains doesn't it?
 

Hadders

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I thought that the main line services are all 12 car, which would make Cambridge to Brighton services 12 car as well as Peterborough to Horsham services 12 car. Actually I assume that means Peterborough will only be served by 12 car trains doesn't it?

That’s about right. Thing is everyone thinks all the class 700 long distance services are going to be 12-car but how can they be when most of them are only 8-car. GTR/DfT don’t want us to know this!

I’ve been asking this question for years but no-one’s managed to come with an answer yet.

How much extra capacity is there going to be in the peaks?

No more services can operate so enhancements have to come from lengthening trains. Currently every service in the peaks is 8 or 12-car (there are a very small number in the shoulder peak that are 4 but it isn’t really relevant in the grand scheme of things)

A 12-car 700 has fewer seats than a 12-car 365
An 8-car 700 has fewer seats than an 8-car 365

What we need are 12-car 700s replacing 8-car 365s but we know this isn’t possible in many cases because the majority of 700s only have 8.

It’s starting to unravel and that’s before we look at the robustness of the service when it starts running through the core...
 

otomous

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That’s about right. Thing is everyone thinks all the class 700 long distance services are going to be 12-car but how can they be when most of them are only 8-car. GTR/DfT don’t want us to know this!

I’ve been asking this question for years but no-one’s managed to come with an answer yet.

How much extra capacity is there going to be in the peaks?

No more services can operate so enhancements have to come from lengthening trains. Currently every service in the peaks is 8 or 12-car (there are a very small number in the shoulder peak that are 4 but it isn’t really relevant in the grand scheme of things)

A 12-car 700 has fewer seats than a 12-car 365
An 8-car 700 has fewer seats than an 8-car 365

What we need are 12-car 700s replacing 8-car 365s but we know this isn’t possible in many cases because the majority of 700s only have 8.

It’s starting to unravel and that’s before we look at the robustness of the service when it starts running through the core...

But the 700s will carry more standing passengers and that’s where the extra capacity is coming from.
 

jon0844

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But the 700s will carry more standing passengers and that’s where the extra capacity is coming from.

Exactly.

I don't expect anyone to say 'oh great' to that obviously, but more capacity comes at the expense of seated passengers. The same happened on London Overground services when the 313s became 378s, and will happen when the 313s become 717s.

Of course, if the country implodes after Brexit and rail travel drops and loads of people leave the country, maybe we can modify the interiors as appropriate.
 
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