Maybe you have. But as has been pointed out, such trains can't fit into the suburban platforms at KX, there are other stations where they can't stop due to platform lengths and no SDO. So I'm guessing there are only a limited number of turns they could cover - and those aren't the ones you're thinking about.
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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress
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Maybe you have. But as has been pointed out, such trains can't fit into the suburban platforms at KX, there are other stations where they can't stop due to platform lengths and no SDO. So I'm guessing there are only a limited number of turns they could cover - and those aren't the ones you're thinking about.
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Yes, they do operate. I travel on them regularly but the only stations that can handle them are Peterborough, Huntingdon, St Neots, Sandy, Arlesey, Hitchin, Stevenage, Cambridge, Royston, Letchworth (I think), Finsbury Park and Kings Cross (platforms 0-8). I might have missed an odd station but they definitely can't operate at places like Knebworth, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield etc.
Even where 12-car trains do operate they have to be manually dispatched by station staff which aren't always available to do this at all times.
D365
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I see them every day up my way. As above, they do not fit in Platforms 9-11.
Class313:)
Member
Point taken. All services 8-car? (0756 from Cambridge)
In the peak practically everything is 8-car but any odd bits of strengthening would help, although remember that the 'village' stations can only take 4-car trains.
What they really need to do is strengthen the 4-car stopper services at weekends.
Okay, but I'd be stunned if there was capacity for terminating services at St Pancras when the full timetable is in operation. It's not practical I'm afraid.
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Wont happen. Thameslink North (Bedford side) is and will remain 700 only.
365s operate as 12 cars on GN Monday to Friday during the peak, mainly to Peterborough now with the Cambridge services being worked by 387s. Of course this will change shortly but from May the 365s that remain will be working GN peak extra services to and from Peterborough.
tsr
Established Member
Quite. Out-of-course yes, but in full operation, no! I believe terminating at St Pancras and shunting stock into the Canal Tunnels is a key part of some new contingency plans for service recovery during or after disruption.
But other than that, though, it's almost certainly not possible!
Class313:)
Member
What stations can only take 4-car trains?
Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton. They're being extended in one direction only so the 8-car 700s don't foul adjacent level crossings but only in one direction. They will use SDO in the other direction.
Some services towards London in the morning peak calling at these stations are 8-car but with one unit locked out.
Some services towards London in the morning peak calling at these stations are 8-car but with one unit locked out.
Class313:)
Member
If they can extend the platforms in one direction then why not the other
Would it be OK for passengers to board (say) just four coaches yet increase dwell times if they had to alight on just four? If that is the case then there is a cash saving by only having to do half of the extension work.
Class313:)
Member
However, if everyone were to take that cash saving attitude we wouldnt have this thread and class700s wouldnt exist. Sometimes its best to knuckle down and do it. Also, its incredibly inconvinient if you want to get off at one of those stops but your unit gets locked out.
Money basically. It's not just the platforms but potentially signalling adjustments need to be made.
The locked out units only ever ran empty. They'd be opened up after they'd called at the village stations.
Also Foxton station is next to the A10 road. Blocking the A10 for an extended period of time with an overhanging train isn't an option so the platform's been extended in one direction but not the other as SDO can be used without fouling the crossing.
The locked out units only ever ran empty. They'd be opened up after they'd called at the village stations.
Also Foxton station is next to the A10 road. Blocking the A10 for an extended period of time with an overhanging train isn't an option so the platform's been extended in one direction but not the other as SDO can be used without fouling the crossing.
If the service is provided by class 700s (8 or even 12-car), there is no second unit to be locked-out.
Wikipedia:
Royston 1.48 m
Meldreth 0.27m
Shepreth 0.11m
Foxton 0.09m
In fact the only other station on the Hitchin - Cambridge line which exceeds 1m passengers is Letchworth.
This probably goes some way to explaining why spending a lot of money on the stations between Royston and Cambridge isn't about to happen.
The trains are busy in both directions as anyone travelling from an intermediate station to Cambridge uses them.
But not many people board or alight at each of these stations per train even if the trains are packed standing room only.
Good luck lengthening the NCL platforms. If you mean 8 car Hertford services to Kings Cross then that rather defeats the object of diverting services away to make room for longer distance services. It also messes up any future devolution of the Hertford loop. Thameslink is just one piece of a much bigger puzzle.
Quite - the NCL is going to prove to be problematic in the years ahead......
It was fine when the off-peak service of 4 tph using 3 car 313s was sufficient, not so much now.
And extending the platforms would be neither cheap nor easy.
bramling
Veteran Member
Making room for long distance services - a market which doesn’t seem to be taking off. Three East Coast franchises have now learned that lesson.
What I was alluding to was running some Thameslink services from the Hertford loop. 8 cars SDO 700s along the loop, then running into the core and beyond, providing relief to the grossly overcrowded 6-car Moorgate services which cannot be extended nor run more frequently. Then more 365s (or equivalent) towards Cambridge and Peterborough which are far more suitable.
Unable to board is common on the Moorgate services. It simply isn’t on the outer suburbans. I notice no one has yet provided examples of all these too-full-to-board services which keep being referred to as justification for various things.
I understand why the Northern City line can't have longer carriages but why can't it have more frequent services? The Victoria line manages more than 12tph with what looks like a similar terminus to me, although it probably has overrun tunnels. Stepping back drivers perhaps?
bramling
Veteran Member
Basically no overrun at Moorgate, so a highly restrictive approach is required. Might be able to screw a bit more with a continuous ATP system, but that's it. One also has to allow times for the platforms to clear of passengers.
1) the new trains have something like 15% extra passenger capacity than the 313s
2) the new timetable has an extra 2tph to/from Moorgate in the high peak (or it did last time I looked).
3) ETCS is coming to the NCL relatively soon. Expect ATO to follow shortly thereafter. That will get capacity up to 18tph or thereabouts.
1) + 2) = 30% extra capacity compared to today, by the end of next year.
Add in 3 = 60% extra capacity compared to today.
One of the options I have heard discussed by politicians (not railway folk) is to split the loop between Thameslink and TfL. TfL provide an all stations seven days a week service from Gordon Hill to Moorgate whilst Thameslink provide the service northwards towards Hertford. On the southern leg, the latter would only stop at Ally Pally and Finsbury Park. This is predicated upon all Welwyn services being diverted onto Thameslink so that TfL can take exclusive control of the Northen City Line and to provide the enhanced levels of service that the Overground desire. Nice in theory but no one could tell me how the fast services would overtake the slow ones.
Been that way since the tragedy. I believe any idea of mnaually digging out some sort of run off tunnel to get rid of approach control is now out of the question as Crossrail is in the way.
D365
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The theoretical maximum in 1977 I’ve seen quoted as being 18tph. There was a discussion about this a while back but I can’t remember what the outcome of this was.
Obviously this is off-topic for the 700s though.
Obviously this is off-topic for the 700s though.
jhy44
Member
It is quite odd how under-utilised the NCL is. Most Londoners I know don't even know it exists because it doesn't feature on the tube map. I had a friend who lived a few minutes from Essex Road station and not her nor any of her housemates knew it existed!
Surely it could easily justify being taken over by TfL and given the Thameslink treatment to become a major high-frequency line? Another station between Moorgate and Essex Road would be useful for a patch of relatively-central London that doesn't have great services, an extension from Moorgate to Bank or even London Bridge would also provide some much improved connectivity and help take some of the strain off a very busy stretch of the Northern Line too.
bramling
Veteran Member
Whatever happens, 18 tph would be a pretty major feat with 25
trains. I can’t see ATO delivering that much benefit either - the throughput isn’t just determined by the NCL section, but the entire
railway stretching out to Welwyn and Hertford. That is very unlikely to be getting ATO any time soon.
traji00
Member
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A station near the Hoxton/Baring Street area would be at a reasonable distance.
Unfortunately as mentioned 2 posts previously there's no scope to extend further than Moorgate due to the presence of the Crossrail tunnels.
Anyway, back to 700s...
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