Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Bald Rick]

Unreliable, uncomfortable and dirty - sums Thameslink up pretty concisely.

I think we all know you have a beef about the future, expanded Thameslink not suiting your personal circumstances.

But:

1) the service is not unreliable, indeed it is now as good as I can remember it. It will be interesting to see how the 700s cope with Autumn, but I suspect they will do well.

2) Comfort is of course a subjective matter, subject to opinion, and covers many areas. On balance, I am finding the Thameslink service of today more comfortable than that of the previous 13 years of commuting. There are more seats at peak time (if not on every service), a lot more space on the train, and (in my opinion) the seats are better than the 319s, and not that much different to the 377s. Rarely now am I on a train which is crush loaded to the extent you cannot extra your phone from your pocket. Best of all, I can now get on pretty much the first train that arrives, rather than having to let one or two go.

3) 'Dirty' is a function of what passengers leave behind, and the cleaning regime. Given that it is the same operator, it would be reasonable to assume that the cleaning principles are the same on the GN and TL. Not much you can do about the passengers. However I will say that if you asked me which were the dirtiest services operated by GTR north of the river, I would say the Moorgates every time. I have also been on some very mucky 365s, albeit almost always heading north out of KX around 0800. In general, I find the 700s are generally clean, particularly in the morning. You do tend to take your life into your own hands if you board one ex the loop late on a Friday, but that's not something the GN side will have to worry about.


A prediction now - those who are against the TL concept will continue to moan, and when the service is in full swing will be quick to pounce on the very first delay in the TL core that delays the GN, or the first 700 that can't open its doors at Foxton, or the congestion at St Pancras during a major incident. However the same people will perhaps not be so forthcoming about the doubling of capacity to much of the GN (which will fill up, quickly), nor the vastly improved connectivity which those of us on the MML side take for granted, nor the much improved capacity within central London that helps the whole region. And I bet some of them will quite like getting a direct train to Gatwick, even if there is nowhere to put their espresso.

 

[Bald Rick]

Here I am on 365506, no cleaner been through, interior is perfect. Nothing but a couple of newspapers, tables clean and not stained, about 40% of the seat back tables folded down. Floor is quite dirty though, mainly chewing gum remains.

Am I in the real world?

Indeed you are. However that sounds somewhat dirtier than 700042 I was on tonight.

 

[bramling]

I think we all know you have a beef about the future, expanded Thameslink not suiting your personal circumstances.

But:

1) the service is not unreliable, indeed it is now as good as I can remember it. It will be interesting to see how the 700s cope with Autumn, but I suspect they will do well.

2) Comfort is of course a subjective matter, subject to opinion, and covers many areas. On balance, I am finding the Thameslink service of today more comfortable than that of the previous 13 years of commuting. There are more seats at peak time (if not on every service), a lot more space on the train, and (in my opinion) the seats are better than the 319s, and not that much different to the 377s. Rarely now am I on a train which is crush loaded to the extent you cannot extra your phone from your pocket. Best of all, I can now get on pretty much the first train that arrives, rather than having to let one or two go.

3) 'Dirty' is a function of what passengers leave behind, and the cleaning regime. Given that it is the same operator, it would be reasonable to assume that the cleaning principles are the same on the GN and TL. Not much you can do about the passengers. However I will say that if you asked me which were the dirtiest services operated by GTR north of the river, I would say the Moorgates every time. I have also been on some very mucky 365s, albeit almost always heading north out of KX around 0800. In general, I find the 700s are generally clean, particularly in the morning. You do tend to take your life into your own hands if you board one ex the loop late on a Friday, but that's not something the GN side will have to worry about.


A prediction now - those who are against the TL concept will continue to moan, and when the service is in full swing will be quick to pounce on the very first delay in the TL core that delays the GN, or the first 700 that can't open its doors at Foxton, or the congestion at St Pancras during a major incident. However the same people will perhaps not be so forthcoming about the doubling of capacity to much of the GN (which will fill up, quickly), nor the vastly improved connectivity which those of us on the MML side take for granted, nor the much improved capacity within central London that helps the whole region. And I bet some of them will quite like getting a direct train to Gatwick, even if there is nowhere to put their espresso.

All anyone is asking for is a bit of choice. Put the Thameslink service on top of the existing GN, and everyone would be more-than happy, even perhaps understanding of the odd reaction to an imported delay. The beef that I have is the lack of choice, especially for those who value reliability over through journey opportunities.

 

[bramling]

Indeed you are. However that sounds somewhat dirtier than 700042 I was on tonight.

Can hardly blame that on the presence of these pesky tables...

I've even got the nerve to rest a newspaper and bottle of water on one as I write this!

 

[AM9]

Whilst waiting at Blackfriars for the 23:22 last night, a couple of empty 8-car 700s passed through northwards slowly. One of them was 700121 with factory labels announcing it as "Zug 67" so we have well over half the class running on Thameslink track. We crawled from Kentish Town to almost Brent Cross flyover so I imagine that it took its time into Cricklewood sidings.

 

[fusionblue]

Having had the 700s now completely in place the main issue is where previously the 319's managed enough seats at midway stations in London (Bellingham, Herne Hill etc) on some lightly busy routes, now the 700s are always standing only in those same places.

Combined with the lack of lengthening or frequency increases (yes the sevenoaks route gets 4tph mid-2018 ish, but we'll see whether that improves matters or the strange timetabling doesn't) it seems both Sevenoaks/Sutton lines got the bad end of the deal with the 700s.

At least when the 376s came in - arguably the 700s spiritual predecessor in many ways - they replaced 6/8 car networkers.

 

[bramling]

Having had the 700s now completely in place the main issue is where previously the 319's managed enough seats at midway stations in London (Bellingham, Herne Hill etc) on some lightly busy routes, now the 700s are always standing only in those same places.

Combined with the lack of lengthening or frequency increases (yes the sevenoaks route gets 4tph mid-2018 ish, but we'll see whether that improves matters or the strange timetabling doesn't) it seems both Sevenoaks/Sutton lines got the bad end of the deal with the 700s.

At least when the 376s came in - arguably the 700s spiritual predecessor in many ways - they replaced 6/8 car networkers.

Yep, and watch for the same thing occurring at places like Knebworth and Welwyn Garden City, whose service is going to be mainly or entirely formed with RLUs. Those 12 cars can't be on every service, so someone has to get the short ones with a big reduction in seats compared to 8-car formations they replace.

 

[physics34]

Yep, and watch for the same thing occurring at places like Knebworth and Welwyn Garden City, whose service is going to be mainly or entirely formed with RLUs. Those 12 cars can't be on every service, so someone has to get the short ones with a big reduction in seats compared to 8-car formations they replace.

equally on grinstead and Littlehampton services. People at Oxted who currently get a seat will now have to stand for 50 mins.

 

[bramling]

equally on grinstead and Littlehampton services. People at Oxted who currently get a seat will now have to stand for 50 mins.

I'm sure the reaction will be priceless when the first one turns up at Dormans or Woldingham in the morning peak!

Hitchin and Royston will be others to watch too.

 

[urpert]

Having had the 700s now completely in place the main issue is where previously the 319's managed enough seats at midway stations in London (Bellingham, Herne Hill etc) on some lightly busy routes, now the 700s are always standing only in those same places.

Combined with the lack of lengthening or frequency increases (yes the sevenoaks route gets 4tph mid-2018 ish, but we'll see whether that improves matters or the strange timetabling doesn't) it seems both Sevenoaks/Sutton lines got the bad end of the deal with the 700s.

At least when the 376s came in - arguably the 700s spiritual predecessor in many ways - they replaced 6/8 car networkers.

A good point, though it should also be noted that GTR and their predecessors had a habit of sending out single 319s on busy Catford Loop services. At least they can’t do that any more.

 

[spark001uk]

Wow, what a few pages. I know where to come for a large bowl of cynic soup if I want it!

The tables are there because the company deems them to be of use to the customers. Yes we all have an opinion, and here is where to discuss it, but if you don't like the table or it gets in your way, find a bay seat, or stand up. You're not forced to sit there!

Personally I've sat in one of the airline seats and the table isn't in the way at all, it's above knee height anyway so don't see how it can be?

Anyone would think this is the first class in the core to have tables. Yes there are messy $£@%'s, and despite me being one of the individuals who always bins their rubbish, it gets left everywhere, on all public transport, there's no point blaming it on the tables!!

 

[Bald Rick]

Having had the 700s now completely in place the main issue is where previously the 319's managed enough seats at midway stations in London (Bellingham, Herne Hill etc) on some lightly busy routes, now the 700s are always standing only in those same places.

Combined with the lack of lengthening or frequency increases (yes the sevenoaks route gets 4tph mid-2018 ish, but we'll see whether that improves matters or the strange timetabling doesn't) it seems both Sevenoaks/Sutton lines got the bad end of the deal with the 700s.

At least when the 376s came in - arguably the 700s spiritual predecessor in many ways - they replaced 6/8 car networkers.

I can't believe passengers got seats at Herne Hill in the morning peak on TL services, given that services made of 319s routinely left people behind at Loughborough Jn. As they did at Denmark Hill, and sometimes as far out as Crofton Park. No such dramas now; yes standing starts one or two stations further out, but everyone gets on, bringing an effective journey time reduction of 15-30 minutes for those affected.

 

[Bishopstone]

I'm genuinely interested to see whether City commuters from Littlehampton-Hove inclusive sit on a 700 throughout, or actively avoid these services where possible, in favour of Southern 377 options.

70-90 minutes feels like a long time to spend in Standard class on a 700, though of course the 377s (most of them) have sections of 3+2 in varying proportion, which are arguably even less comfortable and more hemmed-in.

I reckon declassified First will be full before Hove, much to the chagrin of that elite set. ??????

 

[ComUtoR]

As they did at Denmark Hill, and sometimes as far out as Crofton Park. No such dramas now; yes standing starts one or two stations further out, but everyone gets on, bringing an effective journey time reduction of 15-30 minutes for those affected.

I can't remember the last time I left anyone at Crofton Park. That's pretty rare tbh. Denmark Hill happens and still does with 700's. Neither of which I would say routinely. Leaving people behind and heavy overcrowding is, to me, less about the stock and much more about the service. I only ever leave people behind when something has gone wrong. Issues with the service in front or the overlap of passengers from late runners.

I know there are a couple of services that are screwed every damn day but I have found they are still up the creek with 700's too.

With Herne Hill you get people using it as an interchange. You get a reasonable amount of people alighting for other services so space if freed up a little and the crowding eases. With the next stop being pretty much board only you tend to clear the platform as everyone is getting on and only a handful alight. Hence people getting space at Herne Hill and not Loughborough.

Same with Elephant. You tend not to leave anyone there because all the overcrowding that's come up from Denmark Hill and Loughborough is eased by the number of passengers alighting.

Passengers still alight at Denmark Hill and I find it incredulous that people stand around the entrance and get caught in the crowd. I often see people getting on casually at the back when passengers are trying to crowbar themselves through the crowd in the middle. Considering the number alighting there shouldn't be any boarding issues. Other than a couple of real bad services, most Denmark Hill passengers get on.

Overcrowding doesn't always increase along the journey. The interchanges will ease and there will be an ebb and flow.

Passenger behaviour is a lot to blame and they have started to realise you can board and move down the train. The whole standing at your door mentality breaks any benefits of a walk-through unit. This isn't even really stock specific as a change in passenger boarding and alighting behaviour would have benefited 319's just as easily.

With the Catford Loop already at capacity, in terms of train length, overcrowding will continue regardless of the stock running up and down it. RLU's all day, all the time, should help any off peak issues and where a 4-Car used to be too small to cope with any sort of service recovery.

 

[Bald Rick]

ComUtoR - you drive them and are south of the river more than I, so I'm happy to stand corrected.

I based my Crofton Park example on a colleague who lives there and often couldn't get on. I also see the reports from control - there were regular reports of morning peak services off the Catford loop that lost over 10 minutes north of Bellingham due to passenger loadings with people being left behind. But I didn't see it first hand.

North of the river I can say with certainty that I was routinely left behind at St Albans in the morning peak - most often when something was wrong. However in the last year before 700s it happened to me (over a number of months) on 5 of the 6 morning peak fast trains from the 0738 to 0828 in normal service, ie with no late running or cancellations. And it wasn't just me, the trains would leave a couple of hundred people behind who physically could not board. The 0756 and 0812 were particular offenders. In that last year I would say I couldn't board once a week on average.

Since the 700s it has never happened in normal service, and only once in disruption, because of two successive cancellations, with 28 coaches of people trying to get on an 8 car.

 

[radamfi]

I normally get the 1810 from London Bridge to Littlehampton and usually sit in the second coach from the front as it is usually half empty. But I was surprised to see it almost full yesterday evening. Maybe people have been switching from the 1757 since it became 700?

Also, the 1757 has left London Bridge late quite a few times since it started being a 700.

 

[387star]

I keep expecting the ludicrously crampt 3+2 seating to the replaced with 2+2 in 377 center cars in the same manner as C2C to improve passenger flow

 

[ComUtoR]

I based my Crofton Park example on a colleague who lives there and often couldn't get on. I also see the reports from control - there were regular reports of morning peak services off the Catford loop that lost over 10 minutes north of Bellingham due to passenger loadings with people being left behind. But I didn't see it first hand.

There is a couple that are late every single day. One that I drive frequently is a St Albans service that consistently gets to Blackfriars +20 and then goes fast St Panc to St Albans. That isn't specific to 319's. The service itself is just crowded. It hits Blackfriars right at the sweet spot for the morning peak. Passenger behaviour needs to change for that service to run on time and not be overcrowded.

And yes you typically start the late running after Bromley South and then up the loop. If your packed by Catford then its sardines right till Elephant. Again, this isn't as regular as you would believe. Yeah its packed but leaving people behind isn't something I do lightly or regularly. Again plenty of space at the rear because passengers board without problems. I watch passengers all day long so I can tell where they board/alight and where others are just casually stepping on.

It truly isn't as simple as 700's Vs 319s There is some benefit to RLU's and a unified fleet but the service is just broken and at capacity. The peak takes a huge hit but off peak it can become a ghost town at some stations.

We MUST change passenger behaviour and we MUST change the need/desire to commute into London every day. That's the biggest issue. No change in stock will make it better when we are already at capacity on some services. I spoke to a few passengers over the years and the sensible ones just get a different train. Get the earlier one and you see less crowding. Get the one that hits London at 0830 and your going to get squished regardless of any seating, longitudinal, 3+2, or otherwise

North of the river I can say with certainty that I was routinely left behind at St Albans in the morning peak - most often when something was wrong.

My peaks are South of the river Guv. So my turn to put a little trust in you too.

It is still very much the same mentality and service issues. Its always the one peak service train that is too perfectly timed into London that suffers the most.

Also the service through the peak is so insanely tight for passengers and units etc that the second something goes wrong then the impact just grows exponentially. With nothing on standby at critical points (where do you store a spare for St Albans) knocking out a single unit means 2/3 peak services get caped. Also with the morning peak you have units entering service from depots. You get more faults; or at least more have an opportunity to be found on prep. 700 are a nightmare on prep. 319's barely had problems when you first keyed it on.

I haven't checked the official numbers for passenger seating/standing but removing gangway doors allows more to squeeze on. I would like to see the official load data on numbers before making any real conclusions. 376's had the same benefit. More standing room was created.

Days without service disruption run pretty well and always have. I think 700's claims to be better over a 319 just isn't justified as yet. The service is broken every day so any realistic overcrowding issues can't be seen clearly other than our anecdotal evidence.

I can absolutely state that fixed formations will work for now but the loop is at capacity and its gonna take a platform extension and units longer than 8 to solve it. We both know its just the peak that is the issue so the investment means it won't happen till its too late and then with fixed 8's you can't run in multiple. Allow 12 car SDO on an 8 car platform and that will help.

 

[physics34]

I'm sure the reaction will be priceless when the first one turns up at Dormans or Woldingham in the morning peak!

Hitchin and Royston will be others to watch too.

they like a whinge on that line....... when the 377s were new they were accepted quite well.....they had taken over the Grinnies by this time, but then weeks after the last slammer had run down there in the peak a pair of Veps were sent down there one morning.... no lie at least 7 people came to my cab at victoria and asked why this "old rubbish" was back. Me personally, wouldve prefered the Veps of course!

 

[bramling]

ComUtoR - you drive them and are south of the river more than I, so I'm happy to stand corrected.

I based my Crofton Park example on a colleague who lives there and often couldn't get on. I also see the reports from control - there were regular reports of morning peak services off the Catford loop that lost over 10 minutes north of Bellingham due to passenger loadings with people being left behind. But I didn't see it first hand.

North of the river I can say with certainty that I was routinely left behind at St Albans in the morning peak - most often when something was wrong. However in the last year before 700s it happened to me (over a number of months) on 5 of the 6 morning peak fast trains from the 0738 to 0828 in normal service, ie with no late running or cancellations. And it wasn't just me, the trains would leave a couple of hundred people behind who physically could not board. The 0756 and 0812 were particular offenders. In that last year I would say I couldn't board once a week on average.

Since the 700s it has never happened in normal service, and only once in disruption, because of two successive cancellations, with 28 coaches of people trying to get on an 8 car.

Can I just add that in 35 years I have *never* been left behind at my local (GN) station, including during disruption or in the high peak. In fact the only time I've seen people being left behind onGN is when 4-cars turn up either at weekends, vice 8 cars, or straight after an Arsenal tip-out again most commonly when a 4-car turns up. Even one of the most crowded GN services, the 0755 Cambridge to KX, can still just about be boarded at its last stop before London.

The worst GN services at present tend to be those from/to the Hertford loop during the peaks.

PS - travelled on another two immaculate and clean 365s today, that makes a 100% success rate this week on that score, tables observed being used by a good proportion of passengers too...

 

[jon0844]

PS - travelled on another two immaculate and clean 365s today, that makes a 100% success rate this week on that score, tables observed being used by a good proportion of passengers too...

I was on a 365 last night (2330 or so at WGC) and it was pretty clean. Sadly the people on the train, most half asleep, nearly all had their feet up on the seats. Can't win 'em all!

 

[bramling]

I was on a 365 last night (2330 or so at WGC) and it was pretty clean. Sadly the people on the train, most half asleep, nearly all had their feet up on the seats. Can't win 'em all!

I'm just waiting for the post to appear from a certain person using this as justification to have all seats taken out of trains (*).

(* except that every train should retain a small proportion of first-class accommodation still retaining seats (and tables), half of which should be secretly declassified for him to use).

 

[jon0844]

I do wonder if the rear first class will remain declassified on the trains that serve GN destinations? Clearly TL would need to give sufficient notice if they intend to change this at any time.

 

[mrmatt]

Not sure if it was deliberate to highlight the seat back tables but every table on 125 this morning is in the down position!

 

[AM9]

I'm just waiting for the post to appear from a certain person using this as justification to have all seats taken out of trains (*).

(* except that every train should retain a small proportion of first-class accommodation still retaining seats (and tables), half of which should be secretly declassified for him to use).

The rear firsts are declassified because of complaining commuters. When I travel on class 700s on GN services, if they are still declassified, I will thank those long-suffering passengers for efforts on that route.

 

[AM9]

I do wonder if the rear first class will remain declassified on the trains that serve GN destinations? Clearly TL would need to give sufficient notice if they intend to change this at any time.

It would be difficult to have alternate trains on the BML with different rear first rules.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

I can absolutely state that fixed formations will work for now but the loop is at capacity and its gonna take a platform extension and units longer than 8 to solve it. We both know its just the peak that is the issue so the investment means it won't happen till its too late and then with fixed 8's you can't run in multiple. Allow 12 car SDO on an 8 car platform and that will help.

I'm a regular traveller of BMS to BFR in the AM and PM peaks and always try to grab the fast services that originated from Sole Street, Ramsgate, Dover or Ashford, etc. - That's one more bum that can find a seat on the 0818 BMS starter. But if one of the fast ones get cancelled, I end up taking that 0818 and finding a nice comfy spot in the back.

From my experience, the train "feels" full as soon as Bellingham, and this is for a train that started from Bromley South. It skips Nunhead, sure, but I do still see a number of people fail to board at Denmark Hill.

To be honest, I don't think anything short of SDO FLUs, or using a more aggressive skip-stop pattern to prevent services from becoming over-crowded will improve the AM commuting experience. E.g. Stop the first service at Beckenham Hill, Catford, Nunhead, and then the service behind it can call at Ravensbourne, Bellingham, Crofton Park, with both of them calling at Peckham Rye and/or Denmark Hill.

But what do I know? For all I know, this could make the service even worse. But it's a suggestion.

 

[AM9]

I'm a regular traveller of BMS to BFR in the AM and PM peaks and always try to grab the fast services that originated from Sole Street, Ramsgate, Dover or Ashford, etc. - That's one more bum that can find a seat on the 0818 BMS starter. But if one of the fast ones get cancelled, I end up taking that 0818 and finding a nice comfy spot in the back.

From my experience, the train "feels" full as soon as Bellingham, and this is for a train that started from Bromley South. It skips Nunhead, sure, but I do still see a number of people fail to board at Denmark Hill.

To be honest, I don't think anything short of SDO FLUs, or using a more aggressive skip-stop pattern to prevent services from becoming over-crowded will improve the AM commuting experience. E.g. Stop the first service at Beckenham Hill, Catford, Nunhead, and then the service behind it can call at Ravensbourne, Bellingham, Crofton Park, with both of them calling at Peckham Rye and/or Denmark Hill.

But what do I know? For all I know, this could make the service even worse. But it's a suggestion.

On a more general Thameslink level, I wonder if the ridiculous decision to put Sutton loop services through the core could be changed back to what was the original plan of terminating at Blackfriars allowing the displaced stock to be made 12-car and run longer main line. It's not as if there's a shortage of DC only trains for that. That might be part of a shuffle round when the 707s are released. Given the strategic importance of core traffic, there should be steps taken to make all class 700s 12-car to maximise capacity. The MML slows could run with SDO at Kentish Town, Cricklewood, Hendon and Mill Hill. It would be difficult to extend the St Albans centre siding but more challenging conditions have been dealt with elsewhere when needs arise. Maybe Flitwick could have a siding.
Yes, all speculation, and I'm sure there would be pathing and timetabling issues to deal with, but ultimately the investment between Kentish Town/Bell Isle Junction and London Bridge is the last step before very large infrastructure costs can increase it further. We don't yet know how the new services will need tweaking after the works are finished so there may be different pathing scenarios that could be optimised. These changes would be cheap compared with the next stage of core investment.

 

[lev441]

On a more general Thameslink level, I wonder if the ridiculous decision to put Sutton loop services through the core could be changed back to what was the original plan of terminating at Blackfriars allowing the displaced stock to be made 12-car and run longer main line. It's not as if there's a shortage of DC only trains for that. That might be part of a shuffle round when the 707s are released. Given the strategic importance of core traffic, there should be steps taken to make all class 700s 12-car to maximise capacity. The MML slows could run with SDO at Kentish Town, Cricklewood, Hendon and Mill Hill. It would be difficult to extend the St Albans centre siding but more challenging conditions have been dealt with elsewhere when needs arise. Maybe Flitwick could have a siding.
Yes, all speculation, and I'm sure there would be pathing and timetabling issues to deal with, but ultimately the investment between Kentish Town/Bell Isle Junction and London Bridge is the last step before very large infrastructure costs can increase it further. We don't yet know how the new services will need tweaking after the works are finished so there may be different pathing scenarios that could be optimised. These changes would be cheap compared with the next stage of core investment.

It's only Kentish town, cricklewood which has short platforms. Mill hill Broadway, Elstree, Radlett have been extended on the slows. Forgive me if i'm wrong, but i'm assuming that the stopping trains will all be RLU's (round the loop) and the semi-fasts will be FLU's (Which skip the short platform stations). So in normal service, SDO won't be used too often unless in disruption?

 

[Class2ldn]

Hendon is only 8 car but only opens 7