Thameslink delays at London Bridge 11 March 2019

[MotCO]

There seems to have been massive delays at London Bridge today at lunchtime, e.g. 9P22 from Rainham to Luton was 11 late at Brunswick Court Junction, but 91 late at London Bridge ( http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G73625/2019/03/11/advanced ). Trains behind were similarly late.

Anyone know the reason for this?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Train sat down in the core and needed to be rescued.

 

[bramling]

There seems to have been massive delays at London Bridge today at lunchtime, e.g. 9P22 from Rainham to Luton was 11 late at Brunswick Court Junction, but 91 late at London Bridge ( http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G73625/2019/03/11/advanced ). Trains behind were similarly late.

Anyone know the reason for this?

Down as failure of electricity supply in the Blackfriars area.

As it happens I was caught up in all this. Turned up at Bedford, having already noticed the job was screwed. A very full 8-car Undesiro was about to leave for Gatwick Airport, which we left. Not much information on the station, but a 12-car turned up and (working on the basis that as Jowett sidings were full there wasn’t much else they could do with it!) we got on that which left after a few minutes. Some incoming services were listed as being 120-150 minutes late. Journey to London wasn’t bad at all, but a massive embarking scrum at St Pancras and Farringdon, with folk clearly having been waiting a while.

Went for a quick meal in London then aiming for 1R58 which initially looked like it might be cancelled, as the incoming service was marked as cancelled due to crew issues, but eventually the stock reappeared ex Letchworth reception road, meaning it was worth aiming for. Just as well, as most of the preceding ex-core services were cancelled. 1P56 1936 Peterborough had extra stops added. Bet that was cosy on an 8-car. 1R58 had a good run, no signal checks at all (it helps when all the ShamblesLink/ services are missing!), and surprisingly empty in the circumstances - 1P56 must have hoovered up many for Hitchin. So all in all not too bad an outcome, mainly thanks to the 365 services saving the day. However the core service seems to have been nothing other than dire at times today - as we have become accustomed to since last May multiple consecutive cancellations, and failure to recover for many many many hours. The Peterborough route really does need an hourly all-day KX/Peterborough “backstop” (know that’s a dirty word at the moment!) service for when the peak 365s aren’t available. We simply can’t have the whole of Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire and Sussex going into meltdown off the back of a core problem.

 

[Hadders]

The Peterborough route really does need an hourly all-day KX/Peterborough “backstop” (know that’s a dirty word at the moment!) service for when the peak 365s aren’t available.

Agreed, as long as they call at Stevenage!

 

[tsr]

Several incidents today:
- A lorry hit a bridge at Abbey Street (south of London Bridge) just after the morning peak, closing most lines, including those used by both the Southern and Thameslink routes
- A northbound TL train which should have been stopped for the bridge bash was then involved in some sort of related irregularity
- By this point everything was getting out of sync, with diversions via Tulse Hill etc. etc.
- Two trains became stuck in a stalemate at Blackfriars as they were due to swap drivers but neither train could be left unattended
- A tree fell on both lines around Faygate/Littlehaven and required extra staff to remove it
- The early turn TL drivers then started to need to head back homewards to finish their duties
- Blown fuses caused Battersea Pier Junction to shut down, causing congestion back at East Croydon as both Southern and TL were simultaneously turning services around in the East Croydon platforms
- A northbound Class 700 and the overhead lines at the former Kings Cross Thameslink had a major disagreement, but the culprit train took time to be identified as several were in the area; the poorly train then had to then be evacuated whilst waiting for a rescue unit, and was eventually dragged to Cricklewood at 5mph when it was realised it could only couple mechanically, despite numerous fitters working on it for several hours

 

[bramling]

Several incidents today:
- A lorry hit a bridge at Abbey Street (south of London Bridge) just after the morning peak, closing most lines, including those used by both the Southern and Thameslink routes
- A northbound TL train which should have been stopped for the bridge bash was then involved in some sort of related irregularity
- By this point everything was getting out of sync, with diversions via Tulse Hill etc. etc.
- Two trains became stuck in a stalemate at Blackfriars as they were due to swap drivers but neither train could be left unattended
- A tree fell on both lines around Faygate/Littlehaven and required extra staff to remove it
- The early turn TL drivers then started to need to head back homewards to finish their duties
- Blown fuses caused Battersea Pier Junction to shut down, causing congestion back at East Croydon as both Southern and TL were simultaneously turning services around in the East Croydon platforms
- A northbound Class 700 and the overhead lines at the former Kings Cross Thameslink had a major disagreement, but the culprit train took time to be identified as several were in the area; the poorly train then had to then be evacuated whilst waiting for a rescue unit, and was eventually dragged to Cricklewood at 5mph when it was realised it could only couple mechanically, despite numerous fitters working on it for several hours

Thanks for this. Clearly a bad day, although one can’t help but note none of this was on the GN side (or the Midland for that matter). Sad to see thousands of people disrupted all thanks to the Thameslink Programme.

 

[tsr]

Thanks for this. Clearly a bad day, although one can’t help but note none of this was on the GN side (or the Midland for that matter). Sad to see thousands of people disrupted all thanks to the Thameslink Programme.

No problem.

There were some less major incidents on the GN which didn’t help, including a balloon on the contact wire of the overhead lines (which is not something which readily attracts sympathy amongst those in third rail land!).

 

[bramling]

Agreed, as long as they call at Stevenage!

And also worth adding that the KX-Cambridge 2Cxx service clearly proved valuable today in its current form - although no use for people heading to the Peterborough side, and offering a horribly extended journey time for places like Hitchin and Letchworth especially in the northbound direction.

I really don’t think it’s realistic for both of these 2tph to run through the core. 1tph fine, but there needs to be some all-day GN service which doesn’t touch the core.

Arlesey appears to have had at least one 3-hour gap today.

 

[MotCO]

I really don’t think it’s realistic for both of these 2tph to run through the core. 1tph fine, but there needs to be some all-day GN service which doesn’t touch the core.

As a 'southerner', we do have parallel services which the 'northerners' do not have the luxury of. We have other trains from Sevenoaks, Orpington, Gatwick and Rainham to get to London - I don't think that this is true for all services north of the Thames, and therein lies the problem.

 

[Surreytraveller]

As a 'southerner', we do have parallel services which the 'northerners' do not have the luxury of. We have other trains from Sevenoaks, Orpington, Gatwick and Rainham to get to London - I don't think that this is true for all services north of the Thames, and therein lies the problem.

That's what I was going to say too. There's the Bognor trains via Horsham, alternative trains to Brighton. Although a lot of stations are only served by Thameslink trains, the Southern ones can be stopped if necessary. Parallel bus routes also exist in some parts of the Southern area too, which perhaps in GN don't exist

 

[bramling]

That's what I was going to say too. There's the Bognor trains via Horsham, alternative trains to Brighton. Although a lot of stations are only served by Thameslink trains, the Southern ones can be stopped if necessary. Parallel bus routes also exist in some parts of the Southern area too, which perhaps in GN don't exist

This is a lot of the problem. If you’re stuck at somewhere like Sandy and the ThamesLink/ fails to materialise, there’s zero else (except at peak times if extra stops get put on the 365s). Consecutive cancellations, or stops omitted which amounts to a cancellation, will very quickly lead to massive gaps developing.

The idea that the ThamesLink/ service magically transforms to a King’s Cross service at the drop of a hat is simply not viable in the real world.

Should we be taking bets in how long before the 387 services get calls at Letchworth and Royston all day every day, and how long before Hitchin gets added?

 

[ijmad]

An alternative to a backstop would be the ability to switch at short notice to terminating at Finsbury Park or diverting services to Kings Cross. I assume more drivers on standby at various places would be needed to make that workable.

 

[philjo]

Due to late running yesterday the 10:31 St Pancras to Cambridge service ran non-stop form Stevenage to Cambridge. Unfortunately some passengers travelling to Hitchin and Letchworth only discovered this after the train had left Stevenage so had to travel to Cambridge and back. They say there was no announcement on the train before the doors had closed at Stevenage.

 

[Ianno87]

Should we be taking bets in how long before the 387 services get calls at Letchworth and Royston all day every day, and how long before Hitchin gets added?

Why would they? Firstly the timetable won't work as the Down 1Txx would clash with the Down 9Sxx at Hitchin (and the Up Ely would clash with the XC at Cambridge if it departed earlier to encompass the calls)

Secondly, the Brighton-Cambridges are 2tph from May, so if one is late, the next is not far behind to 'mop up'. Quite literally no different to any half hourly service anywhere else on the network, irrespective of where it has come from. There is simply no need (disruption excepted) to plan for these additional calls all day every day.

Thirdly, GTR ain't going to lose revenue by slowing down their (probably) most commercially valuable GN service!

 

[Failed Unit]

Thirdly, GTR ain't going to lose revenue by slowing down their (probably) most commercially valuable GN service!

Agree with you post apart from the last point. GTR have already made it clear they don’t give a toss about revenue. They are on an management contract. Revenue goes down they get paid the same. DFTs problem.

Did they act with any urgency to fix the May 2018 timetable? No this will get back to pre May 2018 frequency 1 year later.?

GTR don’t care about passengers, they would be more than happy if all trains they ran were empty. (Especially in disruption when the first thing they do is skip stops)

 

[bramling]

Why would they? Firstly the timetable won't work as the Down 1Txx would clash with the Down 9Sxx at Hitchin (and the Up Ely would clash with the XC at Cambridge if it departed earlier to encompass the calls)

Secondly, the Brighton-Cambridges are 2tph from May, so if one is late, the next is not far behind to 'mop up'. Quite literally no different to any half hourly service anywhere else on the network, irrespective of where it has come from. There is simply no need (disruption excepted) to plan for these additional calls all day every day.

Thirdly, GTR ain't going to lose revenue by slowing down their (probably) most commercially valuable GN service!

Notwithstanding Hitchin, Letchworth and Royston calls can clearly be accommodated as they already happen at various times of day - increasingly so. Even if each service served one or the other it would allow Letchworth and Royston to receive an all-day non-stop London service. There's massive local pressure particularly in Letchworth for non-stop London services, this is why we've already seen changes in this respect.

It's all very well saying Brighton-Cambridge has 2tph from May (for most, not all, of the day), however this didn't help yesterday. Having a 2tph King's Cross service did help provide a service, which won't be the case when, or if, both the 2Cxx services run through the core.

A couple of extra minutes on the fast Cambridge services wouldn't affect revenue that much. The journey time is already not quite as sparkling as it might be. I seem to remember when line speed enhancements were carried out in the 1990s WAGN proudly announced the off-peak journey time would be 45 minutes. Can't remember if that was ever quite achieved.

 

[Ianno87]

(For interest, my personal fastest run King's Cross-Cambridge stands at 44mins 20seconds non-stop, achieved on a relatively quiet 365 on a fine Sunday afternoon pre-May 2017 with absolutely nothing in front of us the whole way, and via the flat route at Hitchin. Driver was on the money the whole way....lets just say it was a burning brakes approaching Shepreth Branch Jn sort of run!).

That was very much an outlier 45-something or 46-something being much more typical.

 

[Bald Rick]

Agree with you post apart from the last point. GTR have already made it clear they don’t give a toss about revenue. They are on an management contract. Revenue goes down they get paid the same. DFTs problem.

Even if it were the case that GTR “don’t give a toss” about revenue (it isn’t), DfT very much do care. And all planned long term plan timetable amendments have to be approved by DfT for that reason.

 

[Bikeman78]

Thirdly, GTR ain't going to lose revenue by slowing down their (probably) most commercially valuable GN service!

They already have. The typical non stop King's Cross to Cambridge schedule for a 365 was 46 minutes. The 387s are now booked for 48 or 50 minutes; from May both trains each hour are 50 minutes. A 317 could do it in 48 minutes no problem so a 387 ought to be able to achieve 45/46 minutes easily.

 

[Esker-pades]

They already have. The typical non stop King's Cross to Cambridge schedule for a 365 was 46 minutes. The 387s are now booked for 48 or 50 minutes; from May both trains each hour are 50 minutes. A 317 could do it in 48 minutes no problem so a 387 ought to be able to achieve 45/46 minutes easily.

It isn't the rolling stock, it's the timetable. The ECML is very full, so faster trains will get caught behind others. Then there's the Digswell viaduct 2 track bottleneck which doesn't help matters. If one made the Cambridge flyers as fast as possible then one would loose paths either out of Kings Cross or on the approach to Cambridge.

 

[bramling]

It isn't the rolling stock, it's the timetable. The ECML is very full, so faster trains will get caught behind others. Then there's the Digswell viaduct 2 track bottleneck which doesn't help matters. If one made the Cambridge flyers as fast as possible then one would loose paths either out of Kings Cross or on the approach to Cambridge.

Hence why adding stops between Hitchin and Cambridge wouldn’t be such a massive deal. It would make timetabling easier by reducing the time differential between the three different stopping patterns.

 

[Esker-pades]

Hence why adding stops between Hitchin and Cambridge wouldn’t be such a massive deal. It would make timetabling easier by reducing the time differential between the three different stopping patterns.

But it would remove non-stop London to Cambridge services which is pretty important. Especially at weekends with the tourist traffic, those services get very full.

It is not possible to add in Royston and Letchworth without adding more minutes in. A 45 minute journey time has already gone up to 48-49 minutes.

In practice, this would make the trains far too busy, and the timetable too tight and too unreliable.