• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Thameslink - fraud mentioned - settlement possible?

Status
Not open for further replies.

CloudySkies

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2021
Messages
8
Location
South
Mod note: Originally posted on https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...on-or-interview-under-caution-confused.218996


Hi all, I'm new here. Saw this thread online after experiencing the same thing as the OP (I'm guessing OP means the person who started the thread - please correct me if wrong). My case is actually worse because I was caught short faring for a far longer period of time than the OP. Just wanted to ask the experts here if you think there is a chance that I can still settle out of court or is court unavoidable for me? My situation is very similar to the OP (nurse, short faring during the pandemic, not really a bad person - just obviously naive and made a really stupid decision, really panicking now that this has happened, willing to pay just to not be brought to court). The term fraud was mentioned a lot during the interview and that's what's making me so anxious - as far as I know you can go to jail minimum 10 years for fraud? :'( I have yet to receive a letter from thameslink and it wasn't really clear from the interview whether I should expect an offer to settle from the railway company or a summons to court? I'm about to die of anxiety - please help. Is there a chance for me or should I be getting ready for prison?

(Just a little background, before the pandemic I was paying the correct fare. But when covid started, there weren't many people travelling and all the barriers were open! And my friends told me that they're not even paying for their fares cos of the open barriers. Thats when this idea of short faring formed. I know its bad and I never should've done it - but once started, it just became easier to carry on. I never got caught. Until now. Yep, really stupid me.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
Mod note: Originally posted on https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...on-or-interview-under-caution-confused.218996


Hi all, I'm new here. Saw this thread online after experiencing the same thing as the OP (I'm guessing OP means the person who started the thread - please correct me if wrong). My case is actually worse because I was caught short faring for a far longer period of time than the OP. Just wanted to ask the experts here if you think there is a chance that I can still settle out of court or is court unavoidable for me? My situation is very similar to the OP (nurse, short faring during the pandemic, not really a bad person - just obviously naive and made a really stupid decision, really panicking now that this has happened, willing to pay just to not be brought to court). The term fraud was mentioned a lot during the interview and that's what's making me so anxious - as far as I know you can go to jail minimum 10 years for fraud? :'( I have yet to receive a letter from thameslink and it wasn't really clear from the interview whether I should expect an offer to settle from the railway company or a summons to court? I'm about to die of anxiety - please help. Is there a chance for me or should I be getting ready for prison?

(Just a little background, before the pandemic I was paying the correct fare. But when covid started, there weren't many people travelling and all the barriers were open! And my friends told me that they're not even paying for their fares cos of the open barriers. Thats when this idea of short faring formed. I know its bad and I never should've done it - but once started, it just became easier to carry on. I never got caught. Until now. Yep, really stupid me.)
Welcome to the forum.
Well, you are v unlikely to go to prison.

You need to await the letter from Thameslink about this. In the meantime the only thing you should do is prepare for how to respond to that, for example if you have been doing this for some time I suggest you work out how many instances of short faring you committed so you know the facts from your side, calculate the difference in fare between what you have been paying and what you should have paid (that would be the full 'Anytime' fare, not an off peak return fare for example, if you work shifts at off peak hours say). You may now wish to state your journey but if you are not sure how to work that sum out, people here can do that, but you would need to state your to and from travel in order to do that.

Perhaps it will help people advise you if you can put some detail in about what you said to railway staff when you were caught too.

Also, if you are still using the train and you need to travel most days I would immediately go and buy a season ticket for your travel, or ensure you always buy correct tickets from now on (and keep receipts or evidence that you have done so for the foreseeable future). This will help demonstrate that you have learned the 'error of your ways', and won't necessarily solve the problem you now face, but will certainly not make things worse.

Try not to panic or get over anxious about this.
 
Last edited:

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,984
Welcome to the forum!

I've put below the advice I normally give to people who request help from the forum in similar circumstances to yours.

You are likely to receive a letter from the train company (or an investigation company acting on their behalf) which will probably take a few weeks to arrive saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

An aggravating factor in your case is the timescale of which this potentially has been going on, and the train company might decide to take this into account. It would be interesting to know who interviewed you and exactly what was said (i.e. what exactly did you admit to?) I'm assuming this interview was with the ticket inspector who actually caught you rather than a formal arranged interview?

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.
 

CloudySkies

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2021
Messages
8
Location
South
Welcome to the forum.
Well, you are v unlikely to go to prison.

You need to await the letter from Thameslink about this. In the meantime the only thing you should do is prepare for how to respond to that, for example if you have been doing this for some time I suggest you work out how many instances of short faring you committed so you know the facts from your side, calculate the difference in fare between what you have been paying and what you should have paid (that would be the full 'Anytime' fare, not an off peak return fare for example, if you work shifts at off peak hours say). You may now wish to state your journey but if you are not sure how to work that sum out, people here can do that, but you would need to state your to and from travel in order to do that.

Perhaps it will help people advise you if you can put some detail in about what you said to railway staff when you were caught too.

Also, if you are still using the train and you need to travel most days I would immediately go and buy a season ticket for your travel, or ensure you always buy correct tickets from now on (and keep receipts or evidence that you have done so for the foreseeable future). This will help demonstrate that you have learned the 'error of your ways', and won't necessarily solve the problem you now face, but will certainly not make things worse.

Try not to panic or get over anxious about this.
Hi there, thanks for your reply. I really hope you are right about me not going to prison. The wait for the letter is agonising but I understand that's what I have to do for now.

So I didn't pay for the middle part of my journey. I am really ashamed and really want to make amends.

Yes, will definitely start paying for the tickets in full. It's really embarrassing to be caught redhanded like that.
 
Last edited:

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
14,881
I really hope you are right about me not going to prison. The wait for the letter is agonising but I understand that's what I have to do for now.
He's right - the chances of that are vanishingly small. What you do have to do now is prepare yourself for a financial shock - GTR will almost certainly offer you an opportunity to settle and keep this out of court but how much that will cost is entirely in their hands.
 

CloudySkies

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2021
Messages
8
Location
South
Hi there Hadders, thanks for your reply - really helpful.
Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before.
My partner and I are of different minds regarding this. My partner says to play the 'nurse card' and explain that I've only done this during the pandemic and that I'm a key worker etc. But like you said, I don't think they care about the sob story / background story of why I did what I did.

An aggravating factor in your case is the timescale of which this potentially has been going on, and the train company might decide to take this into account. It would be interesting to know who interviewed you and exactly what was said (i.e. what exactly did you admit to?) I'm assuming this interview was with the ticket inspector who actually caught you rather than a formal arranged interview?
That's exactly my worry as it has been going on for a long while, not a one off. To be honest, I couldn't really remember who interviewed me - I guess I was in shock and was really scared that he was going to haul me to prison right then and there. But he was in plain clothes, he did show me his badge but for the life of me, can't remember his name or the company he works for.
I was stopped in London Bridge after scanning my ticket and passed through the barrier. He asked to see my e-ticket again and then pulled me aside and said that I was under investigation for fraud and that he has been looking for me for some time. The main questions that I remember were: my details (name, DOB, address, email add, mobile), how long I have been doing this - to which I said shortly after the pandemic begun, & would I be wiling to settle out of court if the company is willing to give that chance - I said yes.

He's right - the chances of that are vanishingly small. What you do have to do now is prepare yourself for a financial shock - GTR will almost certainly offer you an opportunity to settle and keep this out of court but how much that will cost is entirely in their hands.
Hi Haywain, thanks for this.
I hope prison is really out of the question - my constitution couldn't withstand prison.
Yes, I am expecting it to be a ridiculous amount - whether I can afford it remains to be seen - but I guess I just have to find a way. It'll be better than going to jail or be convicted.
 
Last edited:

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
11,954
Location
UK
My partner and I are of different minds regarding this. My partner says to play the 'nurse card' and explain that I've only done this during the pandemic and that I'm a key worker etc. But like you said, I don't think they care about the sob story / background story of why I did what I did.
Pulling the "nurse card" won't help you. At best, it will be irrelevant. They don't care whether you're a saint - they're only interested in things like:
  • Did this person evade fares?
  • What proof do we have?
  • What do they owe?
  • Are we better off settling with them or taking them to Court?
With repeated cases of evasion like this, it often ends up with a settlement. The TOC's overriding aim is to recover the fares avoided, and they have more certainty of getting everything they think they are owed with a settlement, than by "gambling" on what a Court will find or award.

That's not to say you are guaranteed a settlement offer by any means - but in a perverse way, it does actually make it more likely. Consider for example this case of a man who repaid £43,000 in evaded fares to avoid prosecution.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
11,954
Location
UK
I'm not sure that this example is appropriate to calm the nerves of the OP.
My point is that, even when the amount evaded is very large, it is still possible to reach a settlement.
 

Tazi Hupefi

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
823
Location
Nottinghamshire
Seeing as you’ve given us the origin and destination and details of the “fraud” - what value do you calculate the fraud to total?


If this has been going on for over a year, surely its well into 4 figures?

I definitely wouldn’t play the nurse card. Firstly, it shows you are a professional who should know better. Second, it shows that you have a career at very real risk of ending if convicted, which could lead them to conclude you would be willing to pay more than usual to avoid court. I also suspect it’s probably a breach of your nursing ethics and profession to seek to gain an advantage by relying on your job, and your regulator may take a dim view of that, in addition to the fraud. I’d steer clear of mentioning your job.

I think you can avoid court entirely, but it’s going to be very costly, and if you don’t have the money available to pay a settlement in 4 figures, they are unlikely to be sympathetic and will prosecute, especially if this has been going on for some time already, as for some offences, (fare evasion) they only have 6 months to get in to court, although fraud as an offence itself does not have any limitations.

You aren’t going to prison unless you’ve got a string of previous offences or there’s other things going on like counterfeiting etc.

Even if it got to court, given the potential amount, it’s probably too serious for a fine, (and the court would probably consider the money would be better used as compensation), you’d end up with a medium level community order - but you shouldn’t even get to court if you follow some of the advice here, I.e. reply apologetically to a letter, be sincere, act quick, and hand over whatever £ they ask for.
 

Mcr Warrior

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
11,649
Presumably a multiple of the daily Gatwick Airport - East Croydon Anytime Return (SOR) fare of £11.40 will now be claimed to be due?
 

madjack

Member
Joined
27 Jul 2012
Messages
82
Location
Ealing, London
Be aware that railway staff read this forum so be very careful about saying anything that incriminates you further - certainly the extent of what you've been doing. That's for you to discuss with Thameslink. We don't need to know the detail.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,984
I strongly advise replying to the letter as per my post upthread.

Do not give a sob story - they’ve heard it all before.
 

Tazi Hupefi

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
823
Location
Nottinghamshire
Presumably a multiple of the daily Gatwick Airport - East Croydon Anytime Return (SOR) fare of £11.40 will now be claimed to be due?
Not necessarily.

There is no set formula, the operator is free to name their price, but they will no doubt try to base it on at least something like what you say, but theoretically, had they been caught on the day, they would have been potentially liable for a penalty fare, which seems to be at least £20, for a single journey only, so you can base it on all sorts. That’s not to say that they won’t base it on £11.40 of course, it really is at their discretion! National Rail show a 12 month season ticket as costing just under £2,500- so it’s going to be at least that much (plus their costs).

If they got to court, however, the compensation would have to be based on actual losses, and they have no discretion in “naming their price” in that case.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
Yes, OP may want to edit out the station info given for reasons of anonymity. But obv mulitples of the fare cited plus the admin costs levelled will give an idea of the sum that will be requested, so best to prepare for that and also the letter of apology. I tend to agree with other posts on 'the nurse card' - put yourself in their shoes, the key workers who are railway staff need to be paid too, and thus they need the fares, (just like NHS staff need people to pay their taxes if they expect to get paid by the NHS), they (the railway) are not going to offer a lower settlement due to the job really.
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
19,157
Location
West of Andover
Be aware that railway staff read this forum so be very careful about saying anything that incriminates you further - certainly the extent of what you've been doing. That's for you to discuss with Thameslink. We don't need to know the detail.

Agreed, someone from GTR could easily be reading this thread making notes to pass onto the relevant team who are dealing with the case, which might make things worse in terms of a settlement figure.
 

CloudySkies

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2021
Messages
8
Location
South
I strongly advise replying to the letter as per my post upthread.

Do not give a sob story - they’ve heard it all before.
Thank you - I will heed your advice.

Yes, OP may want to edit out the station info given for reasons of anonymity. But obv mulitples of the fare cited plus the admin costs levelled will give an idea of the sum that will be requested, so best to prepare for that and also the letter of apology. I tend to agree with other posts on 'the nurse card' - put yourself in their shoes, the key workers who are railway staff need to be paid too, and thus they need the fares, (just like NHS staff need people to pay their taxes if they expect to get paid by the NHS), they (the railway) are not going to offer a lower settlement due to the job really.
You're right - I forgot that they are key workers too. But yes, I never wanted to go along with playing the nurse card anyway - just feels wrong.

Agreed, someone from GTR could easily be reading this thread making notes to pass onto the relevant team who are dealing with the case, which might make things worse in terms of a settlement figure.
Fudge, that didn't occur to me. Will be editing the post with the stations. I'm willing to pay but I'm on a nurses salary so I just hope the settlement is a bit reasonable. Thanks for the tip!
 
Last edited:

Tazi Hupefi

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
823
Location
Nottinghamshire
Thank you - I will heed your advice.


You're right - I forgot that they are key workers too. But yes, I never wanted to go along with playing the nurse card anyway - just feels wrong.


Fudge, that didn't occur to me. Will be editing the post with the stations. I'm willing to pay but I'm on a nurses salary so I just hope the settlement is a bit reasonable. Thanks for the tip!
I'm afraid it's not going to be "reasonable". They're probably going to suggest a punitive amount, above and beyond the fares you've evaded, as above, it's going to be in excess of £2500, probably substantially more.

You have to remember that if they prosecute you, and you are convicted, the court will award a Compensation Order on top of your sentence, which means GTR will get paid by you anyway. However, at court, they can only claim actual fares and court costs, and not a punitive amount, so you'd still end up paying 4 figures, with a conviction as well.

If they're going to get £2500 plus probably £100-£200 in prosecution costs at court, the out of court settlement will need to be attractive enough to Thameslink, and also apply a significant penalty to you, so that you don't just end up repaying what you should have in the first place, otherwise you've not been punished. If it was me, I'd be expecting £3000-£5000.

You might get lucky and they don't realise the full extent, so proceed cautiously with what you say.
 

CloudySkies

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2021
Messages
8
Location
South
I'm afraid it's not going to be "reasonable". They're probably going to suggest a punitive amount, above and beyond the fares you've evaded, as above, it's going to be in excess of £2500, probably substantially more.

You have to remember that if they prosecute you, and you are convicted, the court will award a Compensation Order on top of your sentence, which means GTR will get paid by you anyway. However, at court, they can only claim actual fares and court costs, and not a punitive amount, so you'd still end up paying 4 figures, with a conviction as well.

If they're going to get £2500 plus probably £100-£200 in prosecution costs at court, the out of court settlement will need to be attractive enough to Thameslink, and also apply a significant penalty to you, so that you don't just end up repaying what you should have in the first place, otherwise you've not been punished. If it was me, I'd be expecting £3000-£5000.
Does out of court settlement mean that the train company can just ask me for however much they think I owe, based on the length of time I said during the interview? Or will they base it on actual figures? I had thought that they would look up my Thameslink account or Trainline, etc to find out how many journeys I made and get the figure from that?
 

Tazi Hupefi

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
823
Location
Nottinghamshire
Does out of court settlement mean that the train company can just ask me for however much they think I owe, based on the length of time I said during the interview? Or will they base it on actual figures? I had thought that they would look up my Thameslink account or Trainline, etc to find out how many journeys I made and get the figure from that?
They can ask for any amount they like whatsoever. The journeys you did pay for will make little to no difference in my view. I'd say that they certainly also won't just calculate "the difference". It will be brand new, full fare tickets.

They will eventually work out exactly what you've been up to, and come up with a suitable figure, but it really will be up to them how they calculate it, and what your bill ultimately is. If there's over a year of unlawful travel, it's going to take them a while to investigate, and build the case, which increases their time and costs - which will be passed on to you. There's no standard procedure from what I can gather. They could do what you say, see you've made X number of journeys, and multiply that by the fare evaded, plus their costs. Alternatively, they might just look and say you've made X number of journeys, it's serious and persistent, so we are going to charge a fixed amount of £whatever they like. All you can do is be polite, consistent and honest, and see what they come up with. If you can't afford what they suggest, they may agree a payment plan, but it would be very generous if they did.

As I say, based on what you said earlier - I think it's going to be £2-5k.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
They can ask for any amount they like whatsoever. The journeys you did pay for will make little to no difference in my view. I'd say that they certainly also won't just calculate "the difference". It will be brand new, full fare tickets.

They will eventually work out exactly what you've been up to, and come up with a suitable figure, but it really will be up to them how they calculate it, and what your bill ultimately is. If there's over a year of unlawful travel, it's going to take them a while to investigate, and build the case, which increases their time and costs - which will be passed on to you. There's no standard procedure from what I can gather. They could do what you say, see you've made X number of journeys, and multiply that by the fare evaded, plus their costs. Alternatively, they might just look and say you've made X number of journeys, it's serious and persistent, so we are going to charge a fixed amount of £whatever they like. All you can do is be polite, consistent and honest, and see what they come up with. If you can't afford what they suggest, they may agree a payment plan, but it would be very generous if they did.

As I say, based on what you said earlier - I think it's going to be £2-5k.
I generally agree with this (it's what I'd do if I worked in their revenue protection team) but it's also a trade off for them to some extent, there would be a point where the offender might be prepared to let the court deal with it, and pay what the court decides as set out above, since a chunk of that goes to the court service (not the train operator as I understand it, the train operator then does not get as much money as they would with the settlement offer). They will be seeking that point in money terms. Of course the OP is in a profession where avoiding a prosecution in court (that might be career limiting later on) could or would be important to the OP.

I think it was stated up thread that tickets were bought on an app, which if for a regular journey like this, it's going to be easy for them to see the pattern of 'doughnutting' via the IT for all the dates on which it was done.

In any case @CloudySkies, good luck with this, you clearly are seeking to put things right. You need to prepare your thoughts, list the dates, recall what you told them in terms of what they might then be studying on your ticket purchase records etc. When you get the letter from them people here will no doubt advise on a reply that you can draft. It may be some weeks before you get that so it would bee a good idea to try and get your thoughts in order now, whilst you wait for that.
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
3,480
Location
Reading
Does out of court settlement mean that the train company can just ask me for however much they think I owe, based on the length of time I said during the interview?

As an out-of-court settlement in place of a criminal prosecution, I think they can ask for the amount of money that puts them back into the position they would have been in if the person concerned had not committed the offences alleged. Both sides would expect that a court would enforce such an agreement i.e. once paid, any attempt to prosecute could easily be blocked, and an attempt to ask the courts to force the money to be returned would fail. That means paying the total difference between what was actually paid and what would have been paid if the correct tickets were bought in the first place, plus any costs that are not unreasonable and were specifically incurred dealing with the case. The company is not meant to use the threat of a private prosecution to make any profit, nor abuse its position as a company permitted to operate trains to make money in ways outside the parameters of its operating agreement with the government such as attempting to impose any "penalty". (If they want you to pay any penalty, then they should prosecute and allow the court to decide the level to set that at.) So in short, yes, that means working out how much you avoided paying and paying that back, plus some administration costs.

Now, separately under civil law, the train company might argue that a higher amount is owed according to the contract set out in the National Rail Conditions of Travel, perhaps based on the cost of Anytime single tickets and potentially disregarding some or all of the fares already paid. So the two figures - a lower one based on criminal law, and a more uncertain higher one based on civil law - provide a range within which it may be possible to negotiate a settlement figure. With a prosecution, the criminal court is more likely to award compensation based on the lower figure, but with a negotiated settlement the company might get something closer to the higher figure and avoid the uncertainty of leaving it to the courts to determine the amount. The £43,000 settlement mentioned earlier appeared to be based on paying new single fares and probably at the top end of the range that a civil court might have awarded. After the press coverage, some people called for prosecution but that got nowhere - people couldn't find a way around the out-of-court settlement. There was a separate Chiltern case in the press where, after conviction, the criminal courts only awarded an amount at the low end of the range, calculated on the basis that the offender would have bought season tickets not singles.
 
Last edited:

HelpMe406

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2020
Messages
28
Location
Stratford
Hi there Hadders, thanks for your reply - really helpful.

My partner and I are of different minds regarding this. My partner says to play the 'nurse card' and explain that I've only done this during the pandemic and that I'm a key worker etc. But like you said, I don't think they care about the sob story / background story of why I did what I did.


That's exactly my worry as it has been going on for a long while, not a one off. To be honest, I couldn't really remember who interviewed me - I guess I was in shock and was really scared that he was going to haul me to prison right then and there. But he was in plain clothes, he did show me his badge but for the life of me, can't remember his name or the company he works for.
I was stopped in London Bridge after scanning my ticket and passed through the barrier. He asked to see my e-ticket again and then pulled me aside and said that I was under investigation for fraud and that he has been looking for me for some time. The main questions that I remember were: my details (name, DOB, address, email add, mobile), how long I have been doing this - to which I said shortly after the pandemic begun, & would I be wiling to settle out of court if the company is willing to give that chance - I said yes.


Hi Haywain, thanks for this.
I hope prison is really out of the question - my constitution couldn't withstand prison.
Yes, I am expecting it to be a ridiculous amount - whether I can afford it remains to be seen - but I guess I just have to find a way. It'll be better than going to jail or be convicted.
Sorry what was wrong with your E ticket? And why have they been looking for you for a long time?
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
15,982
Location
0036
That's exactly my worry as it has been going on for a long while, not a one off. To be honest, I couldn't really remember who interviewed me - I guess I was in shock and was really scared that he was going to haul me to prison right then and there. But he was in plain clothes, he did show me his badge but for the life of me, can't remember his name or the company he works for.
For personal security reasons revenue protection staff IDs tend to only show a staff number and not a name.

Sorry what was wrong with your E ticket? And why have they been looking for you for a long time?
I would suggest reading the thread in full – in short, the ticket did not cover the OP’s entire journey, and they had been looking for the OP for a long time because the OP had been doing this for a long time.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,037
Location
No longer here
I really don't recommend mentioning that you are a nurse, which is a regulated profession. This will lead to the legal team considering that you are more strongly motivated to settle out of court than the average punter, which will in turn affect the amount they get you to settle for.

Sorry what was wrong with your E ticket? And why have they been looking for you for a long time?
The OP mentioned that they have been doughnutting - paying for a ticket for the beginning and end of each journey to get past the barriers, but not the middle.

It's possible that the revenue protection team were looking for the OP specifically, but also likely they just programmed the barriers to flag anyone with a ticket from [very close station] for the team to check and go from there.

Doughnutting is one of the most elementary ticket dodges it's possible to commit on the railway, although I don't believe it is, legally, fraud. Fraud requires that someone make "a false representation" which would cover things like forging a ticket or overwriting important information on a pass. Basically, you have to tell a lie either directly or by omission, which isn't what's happened here. The OP merely has been intentionally avoiding fares by buying A-B and C-D tickets without the B-C portion being covered.

I'll repeat advice I often give which is too late for the OP but which may assist people in future: DO NOT do the prosecuting team's work for them. Let them find out what you've been up to, if they can. You are legally obliged to hand over your ticket for inspection, and to give your correct name and address. You are not obliged to do anything else at all, you are not under arrest, and you should leave and answer no more questions. Wilfully admitting to over a year of evading fares when you have been presented with no evidence by the accuser is naive. Don't give them your phone number. Don't give them your email address. Don't tell them where you work. Don't say anything at all.
 
Last edited:

CloudySkies

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2021
Messages
8
Location
South
Thank you everyone for your thoughts on this matter - really appreciate it.

Do you guys know of a similar case to mine (long term 'doughnutting') and successfully settled out of court? Just curious.
Also, as I haven't received the letter yet (not sure if this would be a summons to court or an offer to settle out of court), do you think it helps if I just contact the railway prosecution department myself and ask to settle? Would that help or would I be jumping the gun?
Also, would you suggest I get a lawyer? Not sure I can afford one but I feel like I'm in a very deep hole and need all the help I can get.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
Thank you everyone for your thoughts on this matter - really appreciate it.

Do you guys know of a similar case to mine (long term 'doughnutting') and successfully settled out of court? Just curious.
Also, as I haven't received the letter yet (not sure if this would be a summons to court or an offer to settle out of court), do you think it helps if I just contact the railway prosecution department myself and ask to settle? Would that help or would I be jumping the gun?
Also, would you suggest I get a lawyer? Not sure I can afford one but I feel like I'm in a very deep hole and need all the help I can get.
1) Do you guys know of a similar case to mine (long term 'doughnutting') and successfully settled out of court?

Not sure, but they seem to settle various stuff out of court. Chances of out of court agreement are reduced if you have been caught before and re-offended with further fares dodges, rather than long term dodging but not caught (until this offence)

2) Also, as I haven't received the letter yet (not sure if this would be a summons to court or an offer to settle out of court), do you think it helps if I just contact the railway prosecution department myself and ask to settle?

General advice on here seems to be not to do that, wait for the letter and for them to contact you and se what they say. You may even slow things down by trying to contact them. I would not do that if it was me.

3) Would that help or would I be jumping the gun?


It would be jumping the gun IMHO

4) would you suggest I get a lawyer?

Probably Not at this stage unless the railway indicate they are going straight to court with your case, then consider it (been one or 2 cases on here in last year where people have paid for legal help and it has worked, but basically you are paying at least in 1st instance for a good letter to be written on your behalf)

However, if you are in a union at work they may have free legal advice for non work problems. Ask the union or your rep. If they do it may be worth contacting them at this stage as it would be at no cost to you I would assume.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,439
Location
Yorkshire

CloudySkies

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2021
Messages
8
Location
South
1) Do you guys know of a similar case to mine (long term 'doughnutting') and successfully settled out of court?

Not sure, but they seem to settle various stuff out of court. Chances of out of court agreement are reduced if you have been caught before and re-offended with further fares dodges, rather than long term dodging but not caught (until this offence)

2) Also, as I haven't received the letter yet (not sure if this would be a summons to court or an offer to settle out of court), do you think it helps if I just contact the railway prosecution department myself and ask to settle?

General advice on here seems to be not to do that, wait for the letter and for them to contact you and se what they say. You may even slow things down by trying to contact them. I would not do that if it was me.

3) Would that help or would I be jumping the gun?

It would be jumping the gun IMHO

4) would you suggest I get a lawyer?

Probably Not at this stage unless the railway indicate they are going straight to court with your case, then consider it (been one or 2 cases on here in last year where people have paid for legal help and it has worked, but basically you are paying at least in 1st instance for a good letter to be written on your behalf)

However, if you are in a union at work they may have free legal advice for non work problems. Ask the union or your rep. If they do it may be worth contacting them at this stage as it would be at no cost to you I would assume.
@WesternLancer Thank you so much for this - I will heed your advice. I'll also let you guys know how I get on. Really hoping for a positive outcome despite everything. Thanks again!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top