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Thameslink - is there something wrong with the timetable when:

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Bald Rick

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The issue in question is how passenger flows and train movements might interact at *core* stations, in particular how it will work when passengers are waiting on a *core* platform to board a train whilst other earlier trains arrive and depart from the self-same *core* platform. So there's absolutely no relevance to King's Cross departures - they won't be serving *core* platforms.

I'm not going to argue, but I will try to help explain.

Firstly, you are absolutely right that managing passenger flows and behaviour at core stations is crucial to the success of Thameslink. It is the same in Crossrail, albeit to a lesser extent.

The concern I think you have is for core stations northbound in the evening peak, where there are potentially 3 routes, with 6-7 train destinations on perhaps 8 calling patterns, some of which will be on a 30 minute frequency. And the ability of the stations to cope with the passengers arriving for these trains, particularly if the trains are out of sequence. In addition, there are two alternative London stations for some of the services on the GN side (KX and Moorgate), which adds to potential uncertainty for passengers, particularly during disruption.

To a certain extent this is similar to the situation faced evening peak southbound today, which sees 5 routes with 6-7 destinations on 6 (rough) calling patterns, almost all of which are on a not quite 30 minute interval. With 2 alternative London termini for most destinations (Victoria and London Bridge). Now that works pretty well, so the principle is relatively sound.

The difference post 2018 is that there will be almost twice as many trains in the system, and more than half as many passengers. So it is the passenger management that is key to managing the stations, rather than managing the train service (not that the latter is not important).

Much work has been done, and there is much more to do. But you can expect significantly more staff on the platforms to give info, help generally, but also to be more assertive when it comes to getting people along the platforms and on to trains. Anyone who has seen Canada Water ELL in the rush hour will get the concept. My personal suggestion that anyone who is first to board a train and then stands immediately in the doorway blocking the route for others, to be poked swiftly with a cattle prod was not met with general approval.

The customer information also needs to be top drawer. Passengers will need to be 100% sure that the train pulling in is 'theirs', indeed they will need to know a while before that theirs will be the nth train in the procession coming through. The new CIS is designed to do that.

Of course CIS is a classic example of "the info out is only as good as the info you put in". That's where Traffic Management (TM) comes in. TM does have a predictive element. Current CIS uses 'dumb' logic - the train is x minutes late at location A, and has y minutes recovery time between A and my station, it will therefore be x-y minutes late. It takes no account of any other delay potential en route, nor of any other trains that might be in the way / have priority at junctions etc.

TM (used properly) opens the crystal ball - trains will actually be routed by the signaller / controller up to an hour in advance on a train graph, resolving any conflicts along the way. TM can then predict when a train will arrive at your station, and is much more likely to be correct as trains will be signalled according to the order on the train graph. Where capacity is reduced, eg 2 lines out of 4 closed, it will take into account other trains' stopping patterns. (would have been handy this morning). It can also take into account speed restrictions etc. As an example, at least once a week I stand at Blackfriars Platfrom 2 with the CIS showing 2-3 trains arriving within a minute of each other, and the stopper coming first. I know that it is not possible to get trains in less than 2 minutes apart, and that the signaller at Three Bridges will route the fast in first. But the CIS doesn't know until the fast hits the track circuit at the immediate south end of the platform. TM will know.

What TM can't do is predict new incidents, but then nothing can do that reliably, not even me ;)

So, what I'm trying to say is that the level of information available to staff, and more importantly passengers, will be much better than today, and enable them to take better decisions about their journeys.

The final part of the jigsaw is robust contingency plans, such that when something major does go wrong on the network, there is a plan b that is a) predictable and b) easily and quickly communicated to passengers. Sometimes plan b will be very painful but that's the way it goes sometimes.

There is no doubt that Thameslink post 2018 will have bad days, and some of those bad days will affect the GN more than would have been the case without Thameslink. However if you ask the commuters south of Bedford if they would happily go back to the service as it was in 1987, there wouldn't be many takers.

It will be worth it, and GN commuters (particularly home owners) will reap significant benefit in the years to come.
 
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jon0844

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So if I were to summarise everything you said, it's that the one thing needed most isn't happening. Namely the use of cattle prods.

Sigh!

;)
 

Sunset route

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There was talk when Hitachi won the contract that apart from the core getting TMS Interfaced that the BML up to 20mins out from the core (and possibly onto Brighton) was getting TMS isolated so the core would know what was coming and if it was on time or not. But we haven't even had a site visit from the contractors yet. So I suppose the plan has changed even though we were told that this was central to the core and ATO working smoothly.
 

Class377/5

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I can't decide if you deliberately misinterpret and twist things to suit your own agenda or if you keep genuinely misunderstandings things which are perfectly clear.

I'm not sure how increase capacity is a bad thing but maybe my viewpoint and yours are so very different you cannot understand mine.

The issue in question is how passenger flows and train movements might interact at *core* stations, in particular how it will work when passengers are waiting on a *core* platform to board a train whilst other earlier trains arrive and depart from the self-same *core* platform. So there's absolutely no relevance to King's Cross departures - they won't be serving *core* platforms.

There is already trains operating at 30mins frequencies with shorter trains and less trains overall so I don't see the less frequent services on the outer edges being the issue you think it is. Especially when there have been trains that only operate once or twice a day and yet the doomsday view you have about it never came true. Yes there will be more passengers but great use of the full platform and more services will help that.

Right. So any assurances you give about how things will work are meaningless. Whereas we can look to today as a guide to how things may work in the future, on a railway which northwards from Copenhagen Junction will be barely changed from today.

So are your views of comparing things from today and tomorrow are meaningless then. Not that today's GN railway hasn't already received significant modifications for Thameslink anyway.

Moorgate is only really an option for a small handful of outer stations - Potters Bar, Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City, perhaps Stevenage if you're willing to heavily sacrifice journey time for a direct journey. In the grand scheme of things this is negligible. Perhaps there may be a shift which might reduce today's heavy overcrowding on Moorgate services (although the worst overcrowding is from the Hertford line), but you're talking about a drop in the ocean compared to the wider proposed TLP network.

Moorgate services with the increased services will be one of the alternative services. In major disruption, any alternative is worth a lot more than you believe from what you suggest in your post. Sorry but many deals of dealing with passengers travelling on alternative routes (fact base evidence here not opinion) shows people will use any and all alternatives they have.

Either you've misunderstood (yet again), or you're talking utter rubbish. My point was that the services in question have a comparatively greater risk of delay *on route*, *after the passenger boards them*. No app can reliably predict this!

Actually your doing the understanding here. The signalling system will be automatic and know 20mins before arrival into the Core where the train will slot in. This is plenty of time for the system to update the platforms. As the same data can be feed to the app, yes the app is able to give this info. Its one computer controlling the trains and CIS screens (same data that feeds the apps), its a change from today's where the signalling is separate system from the CIS which tries to guess based on the rules its programmed with.

So you're suggesting it's not "all that valid" that there will sometimes be trains serving core stations where the number of intending passengers exceeds the seating capability? Get real.

Of course seating capacity will be outnumbered one some if not all routes for at least part of the trip. That's what peak is known for. Not quite sure how the hell you got that idea.

This comment is rather revealing about your attitude to passengers.

Sorry but that is you twisting my comments to support your trashing of anything I've put. People standing in the way is a rude behaviour, I never applies that to passengers in general just a situation. But hey twist away, doesn't mean your correct.

All the above is hope. The proposed Thameslink throughput has not been tested to the level that it will be expected to perform, day in day out.

Maybe the Core hasn't but the network is already starting to run with the future TL trains already. Sussex already has almost all the 2018 timetable running along with MML (that gets a 1tph extra plus extra capacity from longer trains). While passengers are the biggest unknown but thats the whole point of ramping up services.

Regarding the Northern Line:

In the southbound direction the entire City branch service is timetabled to run to Morden, so completely irrelevant to Thameslink. On the less-busy Charing Cross branch one train in four runs to Morden, the remainder terminate short at Kennington. So not a multi-branch setup.

In the northbound direction there are just two main branches, Edgware or High Barnet, with a very small handful of short workings to Golders Green or Finchley Central, plus a small proportion of trains to Mill Hill East (which still serve the entire central area plus over half of the High Barnet branch). So just 2 main flows, not the 5+ that core stations will see.

Nonetheless, since you think this is a good indicator of how Thameslink may turn out in reality .. perhaps you might wish to pay a visit to somewhere like Bank northbound at 18:00 on a weekday. Barely any trains get in and out within the timetabled dwell time (some go *way* over), and at times the driver has difficulty getting the doors closed and fully carrying out the 'safety check' before moving off due to passengers on the platform. Quite a bit of pushing and shoving between competing passenger flows. All in all hardly a good passenger experience.

The same happens at other busy platforms, such as London Bridge, Moorgate, King's Cross, Euston. The number of doorway positions on an 8-car class 700 will actually be less than a Northern Line 95 stock, and a 12-car class 700 will only have one more. LU has acknowledged that it will be very hard to further uplift the Northern Line without changes to the service pattern, likely further segregation, although this too is not necessarily viable due to entrenched passenger flows.

On the subject of the 'safety check' before moving off, if you pay a visit to the southern end of the Northern Line you'll find a range of trial measures in place aimed at influencing passenger behaviour following a dragging incident that was very close to being fatal, a significant underlying cause of which was passengers clustering around doorway positions on a crowded platform. Whilst some of these measures have had some impact, generally they have not been successful.

So far from plain sailing on the Northern Line, despite being a far less ambitious arrangement than Thameslink Programme.

Having spend many years (its only been two years since I stopped commuting on the Northern Line) on the line I know just what its like. However I maintain that the scales mean it support Thameslink 2018 timetable with smaller trains, stations coping with loads like Thameslink will be capable of. Ok the destinations are much less but that's part of my point, its a ramp up so smaller platforms mean less time is needed to fill them supporting my point here. And talking about separating the lines is true thread drift or did you lose track of your point?

However you bringing in the doors ignores the door width as IIRC the 700s have the widest doors in the UK. Not to mention those single doors at the ends of Northern Line also affects dwell times in peak and the 700s do not have this issue. So there two points that frankly from where I sit dismiss your whole point on the comparing doors as your trying to compare apples with oranges!

And as for dragging, how is this relevant? Sounds like a desperate attempt to try and throw some mud at Thameslink. Plus consider the TL platforms will generally be better fit with the trains and step free access for those with difficulties have.

Let's hope they do something about the useless Redhill timetable otherwise London Bridge will be 9 minute gap followed by 21 minutes from Redhill all day. Very uneven.

Current timetable is the 2018 one. The Thameslink services are technically 4tph but three minutes apart then 27mins wait.

There was talk when Hitachi won the contract that apart from the core getting TMS Interfaced that the BML up to 20mins out from the core (and possibly onto Brighton) was getting TMS isolated so the core would know what was coming and if it was on time or not. But we haven't even had a site visit from the contractors yet. So I suppose the plan has changed even though we were told that this was central to the core and ATO working smoothly.

I didn't think you were supposed to be getting any version until later next year. There was a briefing showing the outer edge a while back so they have an idea what they are doing.
 

Bletchleyite

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Ideally all central London stations would have been 4-track.

With 24tph it would just take a pull of the cord or a wheelchair passenger requiring assistance to knacker the entire peak.
 

Sunset route

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Ideally all central London stations would have been 4-track.

With 24tph it would just take a pull of the cord or a wheelchair passenger requiring assistance to knacker the entire peak.

There are many (if not all) at the coalface that are still not convinced this is going to work, but no doubt there will be a lot of pressure from above to try and force it to work. Two and a half years to go and the clock is ticking down.
 

jon0844

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I'm very grateful to learn about the new systems being put into place that will at least ensure the information screens relay accurate information.

I obviously still think the weak link is going to be the general public, but at least there's a fighting chance of success - unless that system fails and the fallback is a manual system that will cause chaos.

I will, and always have, had plan Bs and Cs to fall back to. Hopefully most regular passengers do, so if the **** hits the fan, I'll be off. I rarely wait to hear of ticket acceptance on other routes and have never yet had a problem.

I also accept that sometimes getting on your way and paying for a taxi out of your own money just to get home, rather than wait for buses, is worth the investment.

It's going to be interesting to see how it all pans out. The real impact may not be noticed for a while (after initial teething problems) as the increased capacity begins to fill. Maybe in 10 or 20 years down the line, it will be my son who is more concerned about things than me.
 

Bald Rick

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Ideally all central London stations would have been 4-track.

With 24tph it would just take a pull of the cord or a wheelchair passenger requiring assistance to knacker the entire peak.

On that basis, most of the tube in central Lonodn should be 4 track!
 

Bletchleyite

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On that basis, most of the tube in central Lonodn should be 4 track!

If building it from scratch it would be a lot better if it was - the New York slow-fast system works brilliantly. But Thameslink is not the Tube (or indeed Crossrail) - it has a wide range of origins and destinations and interfaces with loads of other services. With a simplified network where nobody cares about the timetable as a passenger, 24tph is workable, as nobody really notices when it drops to 20tph when something slows it down (other than staff, of course). With Thameslink they will notice.
 
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hwl

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With 24tph it would just take a pull of the cord or a wheelchair passenger requiring assistance to knacker the entire peak.

Raised platforms in the core stations next to the cars with wheelchair spaces should sort the later.

The core should be able to support the equivalent of 30tph in recovery mode.
 

Sunset route

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I didn't think you were supposed to be getting any version until later next year. There was a briefing showing the outer edge a while back so they have an idea what they are doing.

Just over two years until go live date, not including what I hope will be a nice shake down period to get all the tec working and singing from the same song sheet. We've had the scheme signalling plan and the panel mods diagram for Thameslink Horsham sidings for years former and moths latter and for ergonomics evaluation before they get commissioned. But as of yet no ergonomics or consultation on what and where any new TMS signaller screens are going to go on our panels. If it's been decided that we are not getting them now, does that mean that the first the TMS driven custermer information system for the core knows about the order and latenes of the service northbound is when it steps on to "The Core Workstaion South" at bricklayers and Elephant & Castle, thus only providing information about 5mis out from Blackfriars, not much better than today.

When Tfl altered West Croydon for "The East London Line" the ergonomics and consultation went back years before they even got round to the panel mods, but with the core outer limits TMS mods its total radio silence.
 

physics34

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Nothing will change. Redhill will continue to be the sacrificial lamb to the all-important BML!

I still believe Caterham and Tattenhams in the peak should be reduced to half hourly, with a shuttle filling in the other slots allowing more trains via the Redhill lines and the Brighton slows.......

THe point is that you cant please everyone. A half hourly service on the cats and tatts direct to london in the peak is good enough. Remember Coulsodn Town people have got Coulsdon SOuth and Whyteleafe people have got Upper Warlingham. Change at purley at other times.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here are the new screens at St Pancras (video) and also the old ones.

https://youtu.be/EFuRUTTeiWw

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

So much better!!
 
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jon0844

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Only issue I noticed with

Only issue I noticed with

Only issue I noticed with the display is the age old problem where the information resets/restarts part

Only issue I noticed with the display is the age old problem where the information resets/restarts part way though so you might miss details about the length of the train or if it has first class etc.

Should be easy to fix. You'd hope.
 

NSEFAN

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jonmorris0844 said:
Only issue I noticed with

Only issue I noticed with

Only issue I noticed with the display is the age old problem where the information resets/restarts part

Only issue I noticed with the display is the age old problem where the information resets/restarts part way though so you might miss details about the length of the train or if it has first class etc.
Only issue I noticed with

mobile devices. ;)

(Sorry, I couldn't resist!)
 

Class377/5

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Just over two years until go live date, not including what I hope will be a nice shake down period to get all the tec working and singing from the same song sheet. We've had the scheme signalling plan and the panel mods diagram for Thameslink Horsham sidings for years former and moths latter and for ergonomics evaluation before they get commissioned. But as of yet no ergonomics or consultation on what and where any new TMS signaller screens are going to go on our panels. If it's been decided that we are not getting them now, does that mean that the first the TMS driven custermer information system for the core knows about the order and latenes of the service northbound is when it steps on to "The Core Workstaion South" at bricklayers and Elephant & Castle, thus only providing information about 5mis out from Blackfriars, not much better than today.

When Tfl altered West Croydon for "The East London Line" the ergonomics and consultation went back years before they even got round to the panel mods, but with the core outer limits TMS mods its total radio silence.

That's not that helpful for you guys. Sorry I don't know anything else. Places like WHP PSB have had TSM like graph systems for a few years now.
 

CMS

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Forgive me if this question has already been asked but why are the Bedfords only running every 30 mins today and on a few Sundays recently? I thought they were every 15 mins even on Sundays? Is it due to driver shortage? The Bedford-Three Bridges services every 30 mins appear in the timetables but are not cancelled in RTT or displayed as "cancelled" publicly. I seem to remember that TL would increase Sunday services to Brighton in the summer but I these were just extensions of Bedford-St Pancras trains.
 

Sunset route

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Forgive me if this question has already been asked but why are the Bedfords only running every 30 mins today and on a few Sundays recently? I thought they were every 15 mins even on Sundays? Is it due to driver shortage? The Bedford-Three Bridges services every 30 mins appear in the timetables but are not cancelled in RTT or displayed as "cancelled" publicly. I seem to remember that TL would increase Sunday services to Brighton in the summer but I these were just extensions of Bedford-St Pancras trains.

It might have something to do with half the railway through East Croydon is closed with engineering works, so therefore you can't run a full timetable.
 

swt_passenger

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It might have something to do with half the railway through East Croydon is closed with engineering works, so therefore you can't run a full timetable.

Cancellation of the Bedford to Three Bridges service was on Thameslink's website under 'planned engineering works' yesterday as well.

With the current Thameslink route going through or near the Streatham resignalling project (that has been going on recently) it isn't much of a surprise.
 

Class377/5

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Forgive me if this question has already been asked but why are the Bedfords only running every 30 mins today and on a few Sundays recently? I thought they were every 15 mins even on Sundays? Is it due to driver shortage? The Bedford-Three Bridges services every 30 mins appear in the timetables but are not cancelled in RTT or displayed as "cancelled" publicly. I seem to remember that TL would increase Sunday services to Brighton in the summer but I these were just extensions of Bedford-St Pancras trains.

The Bedford Brighton has only ever been every 30mins with another 2tph from Bedford to elsewhere. The last weekend I did it was 2tph Bedford to Brighton and 2tph Bedford to Wimbledon via West Croydon due to engineering work. If the the Three Bridges services don't run then there is normally Bedford to St Pancras (some of which run every Sunday anyway before through trains through the Core).
 
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