Thameslink London Bridge Last Train - Too Early?

[JonathanH]

When is Blackfriars-Farringdon maintained, as there doesn't seem to be any similar closure for that stretch?

Blocked overnight Saturday into Sunday morning. Services through the core don't start until after 9am.

I note this: BUT we are not talking about all night, rather the 2330-0030/0100 ish slot.

We are only talking one train - Victoria now shuts from 0015. Thameslink through London Bridge shuts after 2335 northbound / 2337 southbound. The first train that misses London Bridge would go through about half an hour later.

I guess the gripe of the OP is connections into the last Southeastern services from the Thameslink core. The other issue is that the 0017 from London Bridge to Caterham misses connections into Brighton line services and a wait at East Croydon is needed. However, in the grand scheme of things both are relatively small issues.

 

[The Planner]

Given that other parts of the route are open - through Blackfriars, and from LBG to ECR - what are the EXCEPTIONAL and SUSTAINED disruptive maintenance requirements for this (short) stretch?

If they weren't exceptional, the rest of the route would similarly need to be closed; if they weren't sustained, closure would only be needed intermittently.

If there aren't any such, then the railway is being run for the convenience of the engineers, not the customers.

I note this: BUT we are not talking about all night, rather the 2330-0030/0100 ish slot.

When is Blackfriars-Farringdon maintained, as there doesn't seem to be any similar closure for that stretch?

What isn't to say that removal of the hour makes any meaningful work difficult or efficient to complete? If the TOC doesn't believe the blocks are acceptable or utilised for work then they are quite within their rights to challenge them.

 

[Bald Rick]

Given that other parts of the route are open - through Blackfriars, and from LBG to ECR - what are the EXCEPTIONAL and SUSTAINED disruptive maintenance requirements for this (short) stretch?

If they weren't exceptional, the rest of the route would similarly need to be closed; if they weren't sustained, closure would only be needed intermittently.

If there aren't any such, then the railway is being run for the convenience of the engineers, not the customers.

I note this: BUT we are not talking about all night, rather the 2330-0030/0100 ish slot.

When is Blackfriars-Farringdon maintained, as there doesn't seem to be any similar closure for that stretch?

AIUI It’s for patrolling.

The patrolling down there is quite awkward, due to the 11 lines east of London Bridge. The other three ‘sets’ of lines have 3 tracks each (1-3 for Cannon St, 6-9 for Charing Cross, 9-11 for the Sussex side) and any one of the three can be taken out for patrolling when the service starts to wind down, but before the service ends, without affecting services. This isn’t the case for the Thameslink lines 4 and 5. So the block starts earlier to compensate.

The patrolling is scheduled for different groups of lines on different nights of the week, but you have to allow some flex in case the patrollers are diverted elsewhere, or there’s an emergency job that prevents the patrolling. Given that it is literally one train we are talking about, it is a better result for passengers to have that one train diverted permanently than to have it via London’s Bridge on (say) Monday, Wednesday and Friday, but not Tuesday of Thursday, and also not at 24 hours notice if there is an emergency job on (happens quite a bit).

It’s the same guys who patrol the core Saturday night.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Its not like the section 4 blocks at London Bridge aren't used either unlike other Section 4's. They happen consistently every week on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday with the limits changing every so often depending on other possessions going on in Kent and Sussex.

Also TL services can also use Platform 2 at London Bridge.

 

[etr221]

Given that it is literally one train we are talking about,

Under normal circumstances, rather more.

Normally, London Bridge has a 'normal' (though running down) service (on SE and - to a lesser extent - Southern) until about 0100: my expectation (as a customer/passenger) is that it should have Thameslink services in the same period - which means about four-five trains that should serve London Bridge (between 2345 and 0045) don't.

As a result of priority being given to the engineers.

 

[43074]

Under normal circumstances, rather more.

Normally, London Bridge has a 'normal' (though running down) service (on SE and - to a lesser extent - Southern) until about 0100: my expectation (as a customer/passenger) is that it should have Thameslink services in the same period - which means about four-five trains that should serve London Bridge (between 2345 and 0045) don't.

As a result of priority being given to the engineers.

Okay so to put it another way those 4 to 5 trains (in that period anyway) are planned via Herne Hill to allow 250 other Thameslink trains during the day to operate safely via London Bridge. If you are travelling from London Bridge to the Croydon area there are Southern services which continue to run past midnight, so it isn't as if there is no alternative.

 

[JonathanH]

Normally, London Bridge has a 'normal' (though running down) service (on SE and - to a lesser extent - Southern) until about 0100: my expectation (as a customer/passenger) is that it should have Thameslink services in the same period - which means about four-five trains that should serve London Bridge (between 2345 and 0045) don't.

The number of trains possible between 2345 and 0100 is limited in any case because of two track railway both sides of London. Two-track railway on the MML starts, broadly speaking, around 2300 after the last 9Rxx Gatwick Airport to Bedford service. Something similar happens on the ECML. On the south side, everything goes via Redhill (or Quarry if Redhill is shut) after about midnight. You might expect two trains via London Bridge in each direction after the 2335 northbound / 2337 southbound - most people can get to Blackfriars instead.

 

[Taunton]

While the situation has been clarified, nobody has actually answered my question as to why..

You are correct to question it. It does seem perplexing that after some 10 years of engineering work here, so much overnight work is so regularly needed that the normal finish time of the rest of the route somehow cannot be handled on this little bit, especially as other services from Charing Cross, or London Bridge, which share almost all of the tracks, continue to normal finishing time. It means in the normal timetable I can't get a train from Gatwick Airport back to the key station of London Bridge after about 11pm (ie just when many of the late flights are returning), to connect onto the Jubilee Line back home.

I suppose the normal response to any London transport issues nowadays, that I ought to use a bicycle instead, applies.

 

[30907]

I suppose the normal response to any London transport issues nowadays, that I ought to use a bicycle instead, applies.

Or allow the extra 15 mins or so for having to access the Tube at Blackfriars instead?

 

[Bald Rick]

Perhaps I’m in a bad mood today, but it seems quite a few forum members are being quite antagonistic this week.

As a result of priority being given to the engineers.

Yes, to enable the continued safety of passengers on some of the most intensively operated lines in the country.

Normally, London Bridge has a 'normal' (though running down) service (on SE and - to a lesser extent - Southern) until about 0100:

From May the last trains on Southeastern are all before midnight, with the exception of the 0002 to Dartford. Same for Southern except the 0001 to Crystal Palace, 0017 Caterham, and 0035 East Croydon.

Even if the next southbound Croydon bound Thameslink service in the timetable did go via London Bridge, you’d miss everything except these last two, which are going the same way anyway.

It means in the normal timetable I can't get a train from Gatwick Airport back to the key station of London Bridge after about 11pm (ie just when many of the late flights are returning), to connect onto the Jubilee Line back home.

But you can get to Blackfriars, and connect on to the District line, and change where necessary.

 

[OFFDN]

I’m not going to entertain the arguments but for clarity...

The Thameslink paths are booked via Selhurst overnight due to section 4 opportunities in EAS via London Bridge. That said, there are section 5 blocks every other week of the route via Selhurst (be that blocks of the Selhurst corridor, of Tulse Hill, of Herne Hill or the Holborns through Elephant & Castle), that mean the overnights are diverted via London Bridge. For those au fait with the railway week numbering system - even weeks via London Bridge, odd weeks as WTT via Selhurst.

When diverting via London Bridge there are two routes. Monday night into Tuesday morning runs the ‘normal’ Thameslink route of lines 4/5, through platforms 4&5, whilst Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday nights into Wednesday/Thursday/Friday mornings the services run via the slow lines, line 9/10, then onto lines 7/8 at Spa Road Jn, through platforms 7&8 and out on the Up Charing Cross.

There are reasons the trains do not call even when diverted to go via London Bridge, namely that there are not enough staff to open the platforms and class 700s are not cleared for passenger services in platforms 7/8/9.

 

[hkstudent]

Blocked overnight Saturday into Sunday morning. Services through the core don't start until after 9am.


We are only talking one train - Victoria now shuts from 0015. Thameslink through London Bridge shuts after 2335 northbound / 2337 southbound. The first train that misses London Bridge would go through about half an hour later.

I guess the gripe of the OP is connections into the last Southeastern services from the Thameslink core. The other issue is that the 0017 from London Bridge to Caterham misses connections into Brighton line services and a wait at East Croydon is needed. However, in the grand scheme of things both are relatively small issues.

I am actually more concerned about the connective from the two airports (Gatwick and Luton).
Especially TfL is not providing a walking OSI between Blackfriars and London Bridge, while the last service from Bank to London Bridge ends at 0038 (which means the latest LU train to get from Blackfriars is 0026); you still have the trains from Gatwick at about 2320 - 2355 not be able to catch the last Southeastern service just because of not calling at London Bridge (in pre-COVID or post-COVID times)

 

[londonteacher]

I am actually more concerned about the connective from the two airports (Gatwick and Luton).
Especially TfL is not providing a walking OSI between Blackfriars and London Bridge, while the last service from Bank to London Bridge ends at 0038 (which means the latest LU train to get from Blackfriars is 0026); you still have the trains from Gatwick at about 2320 - 2355 not be able to catch the last Southeastern service just because of not calling at London Bridge (in pre-COVID or post-COVID times)

But there are many options. If travelling from Gatwick on the BML you still have a direct service. From London Bridge I'm pretty sure there is a coach or failing that a short walk or bus to Blackfriars or other stations with services to Luton Airport.

An OSI would not be a good idea as the distance is quite far between the stations.

 

[30907]

I am actually more concerned about the connective from the two airports (Gatwick and Luton).

You seem to mean between the two airports - is this a significant late-night flow?

 

[etr221]

Especially TfL is not providing a walking OSI between Blackfriars and London Bridge, while the last service from Bank to London Bridge ends at 0038 (which means the latest LU train to get from Blackfriars is 0026); you still have the trains from Gatwick at about 2320 - 2355 not be able to catch the last Southeastern service just because of not calling at London Bridge (in pre-COVID or post-COVID times)

An OSI would not be a good idea as the distance is quite far between the stations.

But looking the National Rail website, there are - throughout the night - services (times) shown between London Bridge and Thameslink (north and south) - walk to or from Blackfriars. And at least one Farringdon - New Cross Gate offering, involving a Blackfriars - London Bridge walk! (23 minutes - is there adequate signage to stop you getting lost?)

 

[hkstudent]

You seem to mean between the two airports - is this a significant late-night flow?

What I meant is, transport from the two airports to Southeastern Railway region.

 

[Bald Rick]

What I meant is, transport from the two airports to Southeastern Railway region.

As I mentioned upthread, the last southbound train via London Bridge from Luton is the connection for the last trains off Cannon St / Charing Cross. The next southbound train would miss all the last trains.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I’m not going to entertain the arguments but for clarity...

The Thameslink paths are booked via Selhurst overnight due to section 4 opportunities in EAS via London Bridge. That said, there are section 5 blocks every other week of the route via Selhurst (be that blocks of the Selhurst corridor, of Tulse Hill, of Herne Hill or the Holborns through Elephant & Castle), that mean the overnights are diverted via London Bridge. For those au fait with the railway week numbering system - even weeks via London Bridge, odd weeks as WTT via Selhurst.

When diverting via London Bridge there are two routes. Monday night into Tuesday morning runs the ‘normal’ Thameslink route of lines 4/5, through platforms 4&5, whilst Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday nights into Wednesday/Thursday/Friday mornings the services run via the slow lines, line 9/10, then onto lines 7/8 at Spa Road Jn, through platforms 7&8 and out on the Up Charing Cross.

There are reasons the trains do not call even when diverted to go via London Bridge, namely that there are not enough staff to open the platforms and class 700s are not cleared for passenger services in platforms 7/8/9.

The real issue here is the railway is available on many nights but the industry doesn't want the aggravation of having to provide an alternative services if its published. There are many routes where late services aren't advertised to call at stations so on the week when its down for engineering access there's no need to lay on a bus. There is some sense to this policy where traffic levels are lower as it won't materially make a difference to fare revenue but given the need to effect modal shift to public transport to support climate change the policy ought to be reviewed on a key route like this.

 

[JonathanH]

given the need to effect modal shift to public transport to support climate change the policy ought to be reviewed on a key route like this.

How does not running a few trains through London Bridge after midnight have any impact on either modal shift or climate change? In fact, you could argue that slightly inconveniencing people making journeys late at night might actually have the positive effect of discouraging some 'discretionary' travel. At the worst a few people take a taxi who wouldn't otherwise.

The real issue here is the railway is available on many nights but the industry doesn't want the aggravation of having to provide an alternative services if its published. There are many routes where late services aren't advertised to call at stations so on the week when its down for engineering access there's no need to lay on a bus.

Laying on a bus doesn't help with climate change either. When the Redhill route shuts early, there are very few passengers at Purley for the late bus connections. By 2337, London Bridge is generally quite quiet. It would be even more quiet at 0015. We just aren't talking about large numbers of passengers. There might be an argument for doing something different on Friday or Saturday night but it is much more straightforward to operate the same service each night.

 

[dk1]

While the situation has been clarified, nobody has actually answered my question as to why...

The bottom line seems to be that the railway is being run for the engineers, rather than its customers...

It’s a necessity and hardly an inconvenience for the passengers. Other stations are only round the corner.

 

[londonteacher]

It’s a necessity and hardly an inconvenience for the passengers. Other stations are only round the corner.

Exactly. I'm sure also if there was enough demand at that time then they would have a service.

Because of the low demand they instead use the lul for engineering so they don't disrupt at times where demand is most needed.

 

[dk1]

Exactly. I'm sure also if there was enough demand at that time then they would have a service.

Because of the low demand they instead use the lul for engineering so they don't disrupt at times where demand is most needed.

London Bridge punters using Thameslink are spoiled rotten these days. I remember until a few years ago when next to nothing northbound called there in the evening peak.

 

[Bald Rick]

London Bridge punters using Thameslink are spoiled rotten these days. I remember until a few years ago when next to nothing northbound called there in the evening peak.

1727. Next one 1827. Both had about 30-40 people boarding.

 

[dk1]

1727. Next one 1827. Both had about 30-40 people boarding.

It was so poor the passengers used other stations instead.

 

[Bald Rick]

It was so poor the passengers used other stations instead.

Yes I did! A lovely walk to Blackfriars twice a day. It only took a few minutes longer, and got me an extra couple of miles a day in.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Yes I did! A lovely walk to Blackfriars twice a day. It only took a few minutes longer, and got me an extra couple of miles a day in.

That part of the Southbank is lovely to walk along too!

 

[Bald Rick]

That part of the Southbank is lovely to walk along too!

Less so in sideways rain, but that was rare. Very busy in the evenings from March to September, it was an ‘active slalom’ course if you were rushing for a particular train.

 

[dk1]

Less so in sideways rain, but that was rare. Very busy in the evenings from March to September, it was an ‘active slalom’ course if you were rushing for a particular train.

I used to have to go to the Southbank every month walking to/from Liverpool St up until 2017. Remember returning one afternoon during a heatwave and having to get on a bus as it was unbearably hot to walk but as you say, during sideways rain...