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Thameslink services at Rainham

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700007

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I'm going to request to move this comment and make a new thread as I think this could become quite an interesting discussion so I will answer it there.
I use this service a lot more now than I even thought I would and I actually think it is quite a useful service. Granted it is slower than its predecessor (Gillingham semi fast) and doesn't serve Lewisham anymore however I do like the service and wanted this thread to explore whether people's opinions on the new TL services have changed since last May?
 

AM9

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I use this service a lot more now than I even thought I would and I actually think it is quite a useful service. Granted it is slower than its predecessor (Gillingham semi fast) and doesn't serve Lewisham anymore however I do like the service and wanted this thread to explore whether people's opinions on the new TL services have changed since last May?
I have used the Luton-Rainham service to get from St Albans to Greenwich. It was really useful, two through trains available per hour each taking less than an hour. Far better then faffing about at London Bridge waiting for a shabby SE 465.
 

800002

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Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/thameslink-class-700-progress.92632/page-346

What about the Rainham service? I overheard customer very angry about how slow her journey had become
Do you happen to know what journey she was talking about?

I use this service a lot more now than I even thought I would and I actually think it is quite a useful service. Granted it is slower than its predecessor (Gillingham semi fast) and doesn't serve Lewisham anymore however I do like the service and wanted this thread to explore whether people's opinions on the new TL services have changed since last May?
I only use the TL occasionally - and then only sit in First Class. 1st is marginally more hospitable than standard.
I don't have a particular need to use TL though. If I'm going to St Pancras, or north London it's the High Speed (which can be tremendously bad for over capacity issues) as it takes a quarter of the time. The price for this though, extortionate!
If I'm going to Charring Cross / London Bridge / south London, it's now quicker on the SouthEastern (change at Gravesend / Dartford). The Gravesend - Charring X is 55 minutes (via Sidcup, non-stop New Eltham - London Bridge).

It all depends on what you need to use it for - and where you're going from and to.

Sine TL took over the Gillingham / London Bridge services, options have narrowed.

Come Crossrail though, it may change again - TL and change at Abbey Wood. Time will tell.
 

387star

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Do you happen to know what journey she was talking about?


I only use the TL occasionally - and then only sit in First Class. 1st is marginally more hospitable than standard.
I don't have a particular need to use TL though. If I'm going to St Pancras, or north London it's the High Speed (which can be tremendously bad for over capacity issues) as it takes a quarter of the time. The price for this though, extortionate!
If I'm going to Charring Cross / London Bridge / south London, it's now quicker on the SouthEastern (change at Gravesend / Dartford). The Gravesend - Charring X is 55 minutes (via Sidcup, non-stop New Eltham - London Bridge).

It all depends on what you need to use it for - and where you're going from and to.

Sine TL took over the Gillingham / London Bridge services, options have narrowed.

Come Crossrail though, it may change again - TL and change at Abbey Wood. Time will tell.
She was on the train after London Bridge on the slow trundle around Greenwich clearly very upset about the changes

I'd never even heard of some of the stops before. Maze Hill? Turns out it's just another part of Greenwich and a stones through from the park.

The route is interesting as you crawl around Woolwich through a council estate awaiting demolition see https://853london.com/2019/07/03/morris-walk-estate-finally-set-for-demolition-a-year-late/

Abbey Wood is close to Thamesmead which is a no go zone made famous by the film The Clockwork Orange see https://failedarchitecture.com/ultr...n-the-enduring-myth-of-the-thamesmead-estate/


I think Stone Crossing and Northfleet could be skipped once an hour
 

700007

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She was on the train after London Bridge on the slow trundle around Greenwich clearly very upset about the changes

I'd never even heard of some of the stops before. Maze Hill? Turns out it's just another part of Greenwich and a stones through from the park.

The route is interesting as you crawl around Woolwich through a council estate awaiting demolition see https://853london.com/2019/07/03/morris-walk-estate-finally-set-for-demolition-a-year-late/

Abbey Wood is close to Thamesmead which is a no go zone made famous by the film The Clockwork Orange see https://failedarchitecture.com/ultr...n-the-enduring-myth-of-the-thamesmead-estate/


I think Stone Crossing and Northfleet could be skipped once an hour
Stone Crossing I could see this, yes - Northfleet at the moment yes however I believe Northfleet is to make up part of the Ebbsfleet new town so the additional services calling there might be worth retaining in the long run.
 

800002

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She was on the train after London Bridge on the slow trundle around Greenwich clearly very upset about the changes
Ahh, yes - it does feel remarkably slow! Indeed, much slower than running fast London Bridge / New Eltham!

I'd never even heard of some of the stops before. Maze Hill? Turns out it's just another part of Greenwich and a stones through from the park.
And with so little distance between them too, makes it feel even longer. The 1 1/2 minute Start-Stop SRT's between most of the stations, Depford - Abbey Wood really drag it out.

The route is interesting as you crawl around Woolwich through a council estate awaiting demolition see https://853london.com/2019/07/03/morris-walk-estate-finally-set-for-demolition-a-year-late/
To be honest - I've never really paid attention to the surroundings. It is amazing what you see isn't it.

Abbey Wood is close to Thamesmead which is a no go zone made famous by the film The Clockwork Orange see https://failedarchitecture.com/ultr...n-the-enduring-myth-of-the-thamesmead-estate/
HA - never knew that. Thanks!

I think Stone Crossing and Northfleet could be skipped once an hour
Don't forget Swanscombe - All getting 4 tph each way! (2 x TL; 2 x SE) - the argument could be had to either drop both from one of the 'Operators' or one from each... Not forgetting they are essentially the same company! They really don't need it.

I remember the days when you'd rattle through the whole section - Northfleet; Swanscombe; Greenhithe; and Stone Crossing on the fast services :)

Dropping the intermediate Dartford - Gravesend stops might also help with running the TL a little bit further ahead of the High Speed, from Gravesend - Strood instead of making the High Speed crawl through Higham and the Strood Tunnels, when the TL is a minute late.

And poor old Higham and Strood, loosing all of their SE (and non-high Speed, at Strood) services and having to rely upon TL to get you anywhere, outside of the peaks.
 

800002

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Stone Crossing I could see this, yes - Northfleet at the moment yes however I believe Northfleet is to make up part of the Ebbsfleet new town so the additional services calling there might be worth retaining in the long run.
But if you do that, you're not forcing passengers onto the (more expensive) High Speed service from Ebbsfleet. ;)

Do you think Northfleet could become the old Greenhithe? Before Bluewater opened, only the all-stopper stopped there, now it gets everything.
New stopping pattern of the fasts: Gravesend; Northfleet (for Ebbsfleet); Greenhithe (for Bluewater); Dartford and Vice Versa?
 

ScotGG

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Every single station has vast housing plans so any removals would need reinstatement. Stone Crossing has housing plans for thousands to south of station. Northfleet has ebbsfleet to south and two big Riverside sites to the north.

Odd thing is it skips Erith and belvedere - two other major areas of growth.

The line is really slow. The line has had ever more padding over the past 20 years, and Thameslink took this even further despite skipping Erith and Belvedere
 

bramling

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Stone Crossing I could see this, yes - Northfleet at the moment yes however I believe Northfleet is to make up part of the Ebbsfleet new town so the additional services calling there might be worth retaining in the long run.

Both these stations are surprisingly busy - Stone Crossing I never know where the people materialise from as there’s not that much there, yet on the (admittedly few) occasions I’ve used it there’s always been a fair crowd getting on and off, even at times like the middle of the day. Maybe my experience was atypical.
 

Aictos

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From Luton even in the peaks, the Rainhams aren't particularly busy although from St Albans they probably are so why not extend two Sutton services to Luton in place of the Rainhams off peak and terminate the Rainhams at St Albans instead?
 

800002

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Both these stations are surprisingly busy - Stone Crossing I never know where the people materialise from as there’s not that much there, yet on the (admittedly few) occasions I’ve used it there’s always been a fair crowd getting on and off, even at times like the middle of the day. Maybe my experience was atypical.
I could possibly be running on outdated information.
Lately I've only been through in the off-peak.
 

387star

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Surely no-one takes the thameslink from rainham Gillingham Chatham Rochester and strood to London anyway
Southeastern provides a comfy faster 375
 

Kite159

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Both these stations are surprisingly busy - Stone Crossing I never know where the people materialise from as there’s not that much there, yet on the (admittedly few) occasions I’ve used it there’s always been a fair crowd getting on and off, even at times like the middle of the day. Maybe my experience was atypical.

It's close enough to Greenhithe which if I recall has ticket barriers, so it might be popular with those members of the Pay when challenged club
 

800002

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Surely no-one takes the thameslink from rainham Gillingham Chatham Rochester and strood to London anyway
Southeastern provides a comfy faster 375
That is true, but if one isn't going into central London - perhaps east London / Lewisham or the city (via DLR) I think it's still quicker than appearing at Victoria and diaspearing onto a tube / SE Gravesend / Dartford service via Lewisham.
 

nw1

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I'm not really a regular Thameslink user (East Croydon to Gatwick about the extent of it) but the haphazardness and 'randomness' of the network south of the river and the seemingly random southern destinations (Horsham and Rainham, as well as the planned Maidstone terminus) always surprises me.

Just a theory - but I'd have thought, on reliability grounds, that it would be better for TL to have completely taken over some of the south London dead-end self-contained suburban lines (such as say Caterham, Tattenham or Hayes - particularly the first two as they call at the key interchange of East Croydon) rather than heading to Horsham or Rainham. These suburban lines, with less overall journey distance, could then end up with close to 100% TL service, reducing knock-on effects of late Thameslinks on longer-distance services south of the river and reducing the overall length of the TL journeys, hence less scope for delays - Peterborough to Horsham is an awfully long way for example and must be quite delay-prone. Under such an alternative pattern, there'd still have been a very frequent Thameslink service to East Croydon of at least 8tph so anyone heading to places further south could presumably still have changed there for frequent onward services.

On the other hand the longer-distance origins north of the river seem sensible, as for starters, the Bedford route sees no other commuter services, and the Great Northern route also has a relatively limited range of destinations and a low-complexity network compared to south of the river. I'd obviously have kept the 4tph Bedford-Brighton services as that route had been running for 25-odd years beforehand!

That way Thameslink would have been run a bit more like vaguely comparable services such as Crossrail, the Paris RER or (perhaps) the Birmingham Cross-City for example.
 
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swt_passenger

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I'm not really a regular Thameslink user (East Croydon to Gatwick about the extent of it) but the haphazardness and 'randomness' of the network with the seemingly random southern destinations (Horsham and Rainham, as well as the planned Maidstone terminus) always surprises me.

Just a theory - but I'd have thought, on reliability grounds, that it would be better for TL to have completely taken over some of the south London dead-end self-contained suburban lines (such as say Caterham, Tattenham or Hayes) which could then end up with close to 100% TL service, reducing knock-on effects of late Thameslinks on longer-distance services and reducing the overall length of the TL journeys, hence less scope for delays. Under such an alternative pattern, there'd still have been a very frequent Thameslink service to East Croydon of at least 8tph so anyone heading to places further south could presumably still have changed there for frequent onward services.

That way Thameslink would have been run a bit more like vaguely comparable services such as Crossrail, the Paris RER or the Birmingham Cross-City for example.
Tattenham Corner and Caterham were planned until only about 2 or 3 years ago, but Network Rail then found there was insufficient capacity through the New Cross Gate to East Croydon area, so they were binned and services such as Rainham appeared instead. Seems to me that just about everything that gets suggested now has already been suggested before...
 

Staffordian

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Both these stations are surprisingly busy - Stone Crossing I never know where the people materialise from as there’s not that much there, yet on the (admittedly few) occasions I’ve used it there’s always been a fair crowd getting on and off, even at times like the middle of the day. Maybe my experience was atypical.
Stone Crossing is within easy walking distance of Crossways Business Park, so is probably attracting a fair amount of inward commuting - including at shift start/end times in the middle of the day. The ORR station usage figures for 2017-18 show entrances/exits at stations in the area as :
Greenhithe 1,166,928 e/e per annum, an average of 1,599 boardings /day
Higham 196,936 e/e per annum, or 270 boardings /day
Stone Crossing 195,328 e/e per annum, or 268 boardings /day
Swanscombe 176,442 e/e per annum, or 242 boardings /day
Northfleet 110,000 e/e per annum, or 151 boardings /day
Stone Crossing turns out to be surprisingly busy and is the 54th busiest station in Kent, out of 105 - so is almost the 'typical' station in Kent in terms of usage. There is certainly no case for it having any less a service than Higham, Swanscombe or Northfleet.
 

bionic

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Abbey Wood is close to Thamesmead which is a no go zone made famous by the film The Clockwork Orange see https://failedarchitecture.com/ultr...n-the-enduring-myth-of-the-thamesmead-estate/

Thamesmead is not a "no go zone". Its a highly populated residential area which might have a bit of a poor reputation but it is populated and visited safely by many thousands of people. Throwaway remarks like "no go zone" are unhelpful and ignorant, and also clearly demonstrate the fact that you have never been there and therefore don't know what you are talking about.

Don't forget Swanscombe - All getting 4 tph each way! (2 x TL; 2 x SE) - the argument could be had to either drop both from one of the 'Operators' or one from each... Not forgetting they are essentially the same company! They really don't need it.

An RPI on duty at Swanscombe once told me that 100% of the people they had checked didn't have a ticket! :D
 

800002

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An RPI on duty at Swanscombe once told me that 100% of the people they had checked didn't have a ticket!
Of course!
1 - It's Swanscombe.
2 - They were all coming from Northfleet or Stone Crossing ;)
 

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Surely no-one takes the thameslink from rainham Gillingham Chatham Rochester and strood to London anyway
Southeastern provides a comfy faster 375

My friend from Medway does this as they cannot stand the Thameslink seating or slow speed

That is true, but if one isn't going into central London - perhaps east London / Lewisham or the city (via DLR) I think it's still quicker than appearing at Victoria and diaspearing onto a tube / SE Gravesend / Dartford service via Lewisham.
In the peaks there are direct services to Cannon Street which are fast from Rochester to London Bridge. As the journey time is half as long, it is a no brainer really to use them. Much more convenient too than going to St Pancras and Victoria and then getting the tube.

Passengers from Faversham, Sittingbourne, Rainham, Gillingham, Chatham and Rochester from what I have seen only use the Thameslink for local journeys as opposed to travelling to London.
 

Horizon22

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This really depends where passengers on the route are travelling from. Most people in Medway towns wouldn't (or shouldn't) be taking this service as there's a lot of better options such as the semi-fast Gravesend services. I've noticed going north from / coming south to London Bridge the Thameslink services to Rainham are incredibly quiet - they're still bedding in and they go via the North Kent lines which are already packed with lots of Cannon Street services (including rounders) or Charing Cross services (via Lewisham). I guess a lot of people living in SE London don't have a huge need to go north of the river on their general journeys or commutes.

Picking Rainham is more an operational decision than anything else as a good place to terminate. Also bad news if you get on at Higham though as practically you're only option is a TL service since May 2018. The service is ultimately a bit of an after thought by the DfT
 
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Not sure why there is a lack of capacity for Caterham and Tattenham Corner, because the trains from there already run to London Bridge. Albeit the fast services attach and detach at Purley now, but they still have the Coulsdon Town and Caterham slow services which could have no doubt be rearranged or repathed to suit Thameslink like the rest of the timetable. As long as the Caterham service was an 8 car 700 it would not have been a problem however I suppose they saw the Kent market as potentially more lucrative than the CAT/TAT branch which is relatively quiet off peak.
 

swt_passenger

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Not sure why there is a lack of capacity for Caterham and Tattenham Corner, because the trains from there already run to London Bridge. Albeit the fast services attach and detach at Purley now, but they still have the Coulsdon Town and Caterham slow services which could have no doubt be rearranged or repathed to suit Thameslink like the rest of the timetable. As long as the Caterham service was an 8 car 700 it would not have been a problem however I suppose they saw the Kent market as potentially more lucrative than the CAT/TAT branch which is relatively quiet off peak.
Back in 2016 it was explained as better matching route capacity to demand, in terms of maximising 12 car T/L services on available paths through East Croydon and Windmill Bridge, and finding somewhere else to send the T/L 8 car trains. It wasn’t explained then as being about different markets being more or less lucrative, or more suited to TfL takeover etc; I reckon that’s all an attempt to re-explain the decision for political reasons.
 

Class 466

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My friend from Medway does this as they cannot stand the Thameslink seating or slow speed


In the peaks there are direct services to Cannon Street which are fast from Rochester to London Bridge. As the journey time is half as long, it is a no brainer really to use them. Much more convenient too than going to St Pancras and Victoria and then getting the tube.

Passengers from Faversham, Sittingbourne, Rainham, Gillingham, Chatham and Rochester from what I have seen only use the Thameslink for local journeys as opposed to travelling to London.
This is nothing new, the old Gillingham - Charing X weren’t used by anyone in Medway apart from local journeys.
 

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An RPI on duty at Swanscombe once told me that 100% of the people they had checked didn't have a ticket! :D
Did the RPI not report this back to his boss and suggest further action is needed (i.e. barriers or more regular patrolling)? That said this is SE so if they had I wouldn't be surprised if nothing came out of it. :rolleyes:

I try to avoid the TL service where possible for most reasons already stated. Fortunately the Medway Valley line connects to the HS service first, then if I have to go towards Dartford a VIC train is waiting at Gravesend, which overall is a quicker journey with TL.

Also I know Govia run both franchises, but I once saw RPI checks on board a TL service by staff in SE uniform, suggesting TL either don't like sending staff into Kent or don't have the resources to do so. :s
 

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Did the RPI not report this back to his boss and suggest further action is needed (i.e. barriers or more regular patrolling)? That said this is SE so if they had I wouldn't be surprised if nothing came out of it. :rolleyes:

I doubt anyone cares. The problem in these areas isn't a secret.

I know Govia run both franchises, but I once saw RPI checks on board a TL service by staff in SE uniform, suggesting TL either don't like sending staff into Kent or don't have the resources to do so. :s

It's the same on TL between Swanley and Sevenoaks. On the rare occasions you do see revenue they are SE revenue.
 

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Did the RPI not report this back to his boss and suggest further action is needed (i.e. barriers or more regular patrolling)? That said this is SE so if they had I wouldn't be surprised if nothing came out of it. :rolleyes:

I try to avoid the TL service where possible for most reasons already stated. Fortunately the Medway Valley line connects to the HS service first, then if I have to go towards Dartford a VIC train is waiting at Gravesend, which overall is a quicker journey with TL.

Also I know Govia run both franchises, but I once saw RPI checks on board a TL service by staff in SE uniform, suggesting TL either don't like sending staff into Kent or don't have the resources to do so. :s

The Rainhams are jointly resourced by both Thameslink and SouthEastern specifically you can get a driver from either TOC as not sure on depot route knowledge but you can definitely get a SouthEastern driver at Luton and a Thameslink driver at Rainham.

So it doesn’t surprise me if revenue is done the same way because despite it being advertised as a Thameslink service if it works out to be beneficial for both to share resources then why not?

The only thing I cannot understand and I’m sure the likes of @Bald Rick @ChiefPlanner etc can explain but how come in disruption affecting Thameslink that the Rainhams are the last to be cancelled or altered?

Example recently, there was disruption affecting a number of Bedford to Brighton services and the Thameslink response was to make the Rainhams all stations even though the St Albans services weren’t affected as they were all running...

Surely in disruption, the Rainhams can be terminated at London Bridge, Blackfriars or Kentish Town as passengers wanting stations to St Albans can easily get the frequent stoppers while those wanting St Albans and stations north can easily get the frequent semi fasts?

Of capacity is a issue then alternate between terminating at Blackfriars and Kentish Town unless that’s not a option?
 

hwl

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The Rainhams are jointly resourced by both Thameslink and SouthEastern specifically you can get a driver from either TOC as not sure on depot route knowledge but you can definitely get a SouthEastern driver at Luton and a Thameslink driver at Rainham.

So it doesn’t surprise me if revenue is done the same way because despite it being advertised as a Thameslink service if it works out to be beneficial for both to share resources then why not?

The only thing I cannot understand and I’m sure the likes of @Bald Rick @ChiefPlanner etc can explain but how come in disruption affecting Thameslink that the Rainhams are the last to be cancelled or altered?

Example recently, there was disruption affecting a number of Bedford to Brighton services and the Thameslink response was to make the Rainhams all stations even though the St Albans services weren’t affected as they were all running...

Surely in disruption, the Rainhams can be terminated at London Bridge, Blackfriars or Kentish Town as passengers wanting stations to St Albans can easily get the frequent stoppers while those wanting St Albans and stations north can easily get the frequent semi fasts?

Of capacity is a issue then alternate between terminating at Blackfriars and Kentish Town unless that’s not a option?
The Blackfriars track layout effectively precludes terminating anything from the London Bridge being turnedback. Rainham are usually 8 car so ideal for shifting to stopping services due to 8car MML platform issues unlike many 12car.
 
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