Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Failed Unit]

My interpretation of his point is that people should disregard the 2Cxx services and just take the Moorgates, perhaps changing from the Underground at Highbury or Finsbury. Unfortunately this is a sad but realistic verdict on the current state of affairs.

As far as weekdays go, the 2Cxx services are slow and generally don’t overtake the Moorgates, so really the advice holds true there too - unless one particularly likes using the declassified first of course!

Looking at the outers, it’s interesting to observe how the KX 365 services fill up quite early at times - indicating people are taking them in preference to a sooner train from St Pancras. I took a 700
from London Bridge one evening last week just for a bit of variety, and was surprised just how empty the train was heading north onto the GN. Meanwhile Letchworth and Royston have already given their verdict on the new service, with further retrenchment to come in May.

Is this really travel transformed for good?

No it isn’t.

But one of the reasons I use kings cross now is to travel north via LNER. The tube isn’t ideal if you have baggage and bikes. Hence why I am not impressed with the constant removal is this option. In the past I would have taken a direct train to Peterborough. Now I must drive / cycle to Stevenage- transforming travel for good?

In the week I am heading for the core. I could change at Finsbury Park but when they change platforms at the last minute you miss the connection so still use kings cross and walk over.

 

[Aictos]

My interpretation of his point is that people should disregard the 2Cxx services and just take the Moorgates, perhaps changing from the Underground at Highbury or Finsbury. Unfortunately this is a sad but realistic verdict on the current state of affairs.

The point is though that for passengers travelling between London and Welwyn Garden City they have the Inners to fall back on, this isn't ideal for those travelling north of WGC as they don't have any alternatives unless they decide to go via Hertford to Stevenage and double back.

It's not perfect I agree but it's trying to make the best with the infrastructure that's available.

 

[Failed Unit]

The point is though that for passengers travelling between London and Welwyn Garden City they have the Inners to fall back on, this isn't ideal for those travelling north of WGC as they don't have any alternatives unless they decide to go via Hertford to Stevenage and double back.

It's not perfect I agree but it's trying to make the best with the infrastructure that's available.

Let’s say you are travelling with a bike? The inners are useless now.

Imagine you want to travel from Gatwick Airport- Hatfield.
You now have to haul all your baggage down the tube.

Not impossible. But definitely not acceptable when you used to have a half hourly direct service to kings cross and could connect with a 15 minute frequency service. As a said passengers are voting with their feet as a result. They are taking the sensible choice. Don’t use rail. Is this as what we really want?

Interesting how times have changed. This time last year the 2 problems with the service were.

1. Cancellation due to driver shortages.
2. Severe overcrowding of 4 coach trains that you could not physically board at times.

So GTR have solved issue 2 by making 1 so bad everyone has given up.

 

[jon0844]

Passenger numbers seem to be increasing now. Perhaps not opening an app and seeing loads of cancelled trains for the whole day due to a shortage of drivers is giving people confidence again.

And the figures posted earlier regarding PPM were from trains.im and follow a recognised standard (so late isn't under 1 hour as suggested, for example).

 

[jon0844]

That's rather concerning - it's something I've suspected for a while but it's plainly evident there. Is that the sort of thing that ought to be reported?

I don't think it's true that skip stop services aren't being counted. I don't know how the reporting works but can't believe a TOC can fiddle things as easy as not declaring it.

Once the amended stopping is entered into the system to show up on screens, apps etc, and signallers make any adjustments to the routing (such as running through stations like WGC on the fast) then it simply cannot be hidden.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't think it's true that skip stop services aren't being counted. I don't know how the reporting works but can't believe a TOC can fiddle things as easy as not declaring it.

Once the amended stopping is entered into the system to show up on screens, apps etc, and signallers make any adjustments to the routing (such as running through stations like WGC on the fast) then it simply cannot be hidden.

But your figures from yesterday were showing 0% cancellations. Which simply was not true as i posted a skip stopping (effectively cancelled) service. Ok this may be amended in the future so it is declared as cancelled. But you have a false impression of the service yesterday. As I would have done if I wasn’t on the cancellation. (Sorry skipped service).

 

[jon0844]

Maybe a rounding error, but those are the figures on the site. Maybe they'll be amended, but even so it's still an impressive performance and the sort of thing that will get people to go back to the train.

 

[Failed Unit]

Maybe a rounding error, but those are the figures on the site. Maybe they'll be amended, but even so it's still an impressive performance and the sort of thing that will get people to go back to the train.

I agree the figures are on the site. But I don’t think they are a correct reflection of the service. They don’t run many train at the weekend so it is not possible to round a single cancellation to get 0%

Personally using the service yesterday the figures you posted mean nothing as yet again I had to go across the tube to get home. Until this stops happening, I will only use the service if I have no alternative. How many others services didn’t observe their full stopping pattern? Nobody knows. I doubt I attempted to use the only one.

Until they get back to pre may 2018 frequency stopping at all the stations they should be they are failing passengers. I can’t believe that you can consider yesterday as successful are enough to get people returning to the route when the trains don’t stop where they should. Most weekends i have suffered from skip stopping. On the positive side you get better trains at weekends. Less 700s and more 365s.

What if you planned to travel from WGC to Stevenage yesterday for a 1730 film? You would have regretted taking the environmentally friendly option of the train as it passes through WGC empty and non-stop.

 

[grid56126]

PPM IM and other systems are NOT and I suspect will struggle ever to be accurate.
The industry still uses TRUST and Delay attribution systems to input "fail to stops" and these, along with terminations short and short starts do not show correctly on 3rd party systems like PM IM. Genuine figures are never available until day 2 once everything is tidied up. By tidying up, I do not mean fiddling. Some things like fail to stops and general tidying up due to duplicate schedules and numerous other issues have to be resolved.

I often had / have long discussions with colleagues in the industry trying to get them to understand why PPM figures, however gleaned are advisory until issued by performance teams. This is often in the context of service recovery when people expect to see an upturn in performance, but cancellations, fail to stops etc are being updated.

I can assure anyone with doubts that fail to stops do count, they are not and have never been used to hide stats and along with the misguided belief that controllers have enough time to work out how to get trains within delay repay time is a huge myth.

 

[jon0844]

Thank you. I am sure the stats will then be amended but regardless of a percentage here or there, the day still shows that it is now safe to make plans to use trains at weekends.

Today seems to be going quite well, despite someone causing issues at New Barnet this evening. I don't know if the cautioning of trains was long enough to impact later trains tonight.

 

[Failed Unit]

PPM IM and other systems are NOT and I suspect will struggle ever to be accurate.
The industry still uses TRUST and Delay attribution systems to input "fail to stops" and these, along with terminations short and short starts do not show correctly on 3rd party systems like PM IM. Genuine figures are never available until day 2 once everything is tidied up. By tidying up, I do not mean fiddling. Some things like fail to stops and general tidying up due to duplicate schedules and numerous other issues have to be resolved.

I often had / have long discussions with colleagues in the industry trying to get them to understand why PPM figures, however gleaned are advisory until issued by performance teams. This is often in the context of service recovery when people expect to see an upturn in performance, but cancellations, fail to stops etc are being updated.

I can assure anyone with doubts that fail to stops do count, they are not and have never been used to hide stats and along with the misguided belief that controllers have enough time to work out how to get trains within delay repay time is a huge myth.

Thanks for the insight. It is good to know these will be included so GTR are not totally getting away with it. I will never understand why controllers seem to think leaving stations with a 2 hour gap is a good thing, but suspect that as the return journey was on time 1 failure is better than 2. As they are only bothered by ppm statistics who care how the passengers suffer.

 

[Failed Unit]

Thank you. I am sure the stats will then be amended but regardless of a percentage here or there, the day still shows that it is now safe to make plans to use trains at weekends.

Today seems to be going quite well, despite someone causing issues at New Barnet this evening. I don't know if the cautioning of trains was long enough to impact later trains tonight.

How can you say that? My personal experience from yesterday shows that you still can’t rely on the service? Missing stops is still rife, you just don’t know about it unless you use the service. It is still totally unacceptable in terms for frequency. Would you use it to say go to a football match? What do you do when they decide to miss your station? Miss the match?

I know you are the forums GTR apologist, but please try using the service rather than making claims from your armchair, or at least get to the station and see what is really happening.

Surely any measure of success should at least be the same frequency and reliability as we enjoyed last year? Or is it only me that finds halving the frequency and missing stops as not a reason to celebrate?

Can anyone remember when the frequency was that poor on a Saturday? I can’t going back over 20 years. (Not as a normal service. Engineering works and disruption maybe. But at least missing stops wasn’t as bad even in those situations)

 

[jon0844]

You've spoken of one train and seemed to have extrapolated it to suggest almost nothing ran! If I'm the resident apologist, what are you?!

 

[Failed Unit]

You've spoken of one train and seemed to have extrapolated it to suggest almost nothing ran! If I'm the resident apologist, what are you?!

The poor suffering user of the service!

How do you know it is only one? I have demonstrated that the figures can’t be trusted. I only need 1 example to prove that point as we simply don’t know how many other trains didn’t stick to their calling pattern.

But as I said I will view every single Saturday as at least 50% cancellations on both great northern and Thameslink until we retain the services we had pre May 2018. If you are prepared to accept a lower standard that is your choice.

 

[jon0844]

I never said that. I've never said the weekend service is good. I simply said that the reduced service, with some unacceptable gaps, is at least pretty much running in full. You can plan a day out and consider yourself quite unlucky if the one or a few problem trains is the one you needed. Crikey, pre May 2018 it's not as if there weren't lots of cancelled services on mostly Sunday but also Saturday. That went back to the First days too.

You do seem to manage to misread what I say quite well, while giving specific examples of issues and trying to make out everything is like that. We've had it explained that the PPM may be adjusted, but I am not expecting it to drop significantly.

Like it or not, most trains are running. Few if any are being cancelled becuase of train crew issues. It's more likely the weather will throw a spanner in the works now, although that should be a good test of the 387/700/717s with better chances of coping with any sleet or snow possibly heading our way.

 

[londonteacher]

I will view every single Saturday as at least 50% cancellations on both great northern and Thameslink until we retain the services we had pre May 2018

I'm not a Thameslink apologist but if you insist on comparing against a timetable that is no longer valid then you can't keep complaining.

Yes the service is not in most cases to the same level as before, but what is timetabled is mostly running albeit with a few last minute changes.

 

[jon0844]

Indeed. There are lots of missing trains, mostly on Saturday, that must come back but they're not cancelled at the moment because they're not in the timetable!

 

[bramling]

I'm not a Thameslink apologist but if you insist on comparing against a timetable that is no longer valid then you can't keep complaining.

Yes the service is not in most cases to the same level as before, but what is timetabled is mostly running albeit with a few last minute changes.

He does have a point that (i) the weekend service is dire, (ii) it fails to deliver what was promised - both in terms of frequency and capacity, and, (iii) it’s worse than the pre-May service.

I’d say that’s more than enough grounds for users to be peeved.

And where’s the compensation for users who might have brought an annual season ticket in good faith on the basis that they might wish to travel to work at weekends, yet find the inadequate service means they end up driving?

 

[Bedpan]

He does have a point that (i) the weekend service is dire, (ii) it fails to deliver what was promised - both in terms of frequency and capacity, and, (iii) it’s worse than the pre-May service.

I’d say that’s more than enough grounds for users to be peeved.

And where’s the compensation for users who might have brought an annual season ticket in good faith on the basis that they might wish to travel to work at weekends, yet find the inadequate service means they end up driving?

Add to (ii) and lack of journey opportunities. I don’t think that I’ve been on a train at a weekend at all since May despite Sunday being the only day of the week now that I can get a direct train to Hendon or Wimbledon, two of the journeys I’ve made fairly frequently before which are now no longer available.

 

[jon0844]

The weekend service is indeed poor and I don't think anyone has defended it (literally not anyone!) but while trains have been removed from what should have been running, you still can't claim they're cancelled. They just don't exist, and a 2 hour gap for northbound services at Welwyn Garden City on a Saturday night is bad. It's when people are quite likely wanting to return home from London, and there's a two hour wait. While London passengers could go to get a slow stopper, those at Welwyn Garden City wanting Stevenage etc are out of luck. I think it might possibly be quicker to go into London and back out, but that's risky for obvious reasons.

My point, and getting me accused of being an apologist, was that at least the limited service now appears to run. That's a big change. With the December 2018 timetable not falling to bits in the week on the ECML, I have a bit more confidence that come May the weekends may run as was expected in May 2018.

Then, going forward, with more drivers available on a Sunday, we may even be able to look at increasing the service frequency. We all know that Sunday's are now very busy and I doubt that those who left will never come back. Frankly, that would be cutting off your nose to spite your face as surely people who have sought to drive would often prefer the convenience of using a train.

(I do sympathise with season ticket holders. I am not sure a solution for people who don't get a good weekend service even IF it's only for leisure travel. I recall when there were two years of major ECML OHLE works and weekend services were bustituted for almost six months at a time. That was a killer as the weekend 'free travel' was totally unusable as I didn't want to go on a bus from WGC or Hatfield to London and back).

 

[gingerheid]

Seems to confirm that weekends are now a lot more stable. Sure there are fewer trains, but at least you can trust the timetable and make some plans around it.

As a whole for GTR it was on time 96.4%, late 2.8% and very late or cancelled 0.8%.

I think we might have thread Stockholm syndrome!

If last April someone had told us that (allegedly) operating not-the-full *previous* timetable, on one particular day, would be seen as worthy of some kind of celebration,...

For the avoidance of doubt, it's not. GTR performance on that day was a disgrace and they ought to be ashamed of themselves.

I did not before, and I still do not now, understand how by representing that they could run the May 18 timetable (and Dec 18 & etc) when they were clearly nowhere at all close to anything of the sort, GTR did not act fraudulently.

 

[bramling]

I think we might have thread Stockholm syndrome!

If last April someone had told us that (allegedly) operating not-the-full *previous* timetable, on one particular day, would be seen as worthy of some kind of celebration,...

For the avoidance of doubt, it's not. GTR performance on that day was a disgrace and they ought to be ashamed of themselves.

I did not before, and I still do not now, understand how by representing that they could run the May 18 timetable (and Dec 18 & etc) when they were clearly nowhere at all close to anything of the sort, GTR did not act fraudulently.

A well-written post.

It’s not like the weekday service is a bed of roses either. Whilst the driver-related cancellations are now, mostly, a thing of the past, we’re still left with erratic underlying performance. It’s still a lottery whether a give Brighton-Cambridge or Horsham-Peterborough service will materialise on time. Lest anyone forget there’s still a further three off-peak and five peak trains per hour, each way, to be stuffed through the core and be subjected to whatever might be happening on the southern region.

 

[gingerheid]

I'm not a Thameslink apologist but if you insist on comparing against a timetable that is no longer valid then you can't keep complaining.

Yes the service is not in most cases to the same level as before, but what is timetabled is mostly running albeit with a few last minute changes.

That's illogical. A service that was supposed to improve got worse. If that's not grounds for complaint what is?

 

[bramling]

That's a bit disingenuous. The core-GN services are formed of either 8 or 12 car 700s, and run more frequently than the 365s out of Kings Cross. Being 700s they feel more empty due to the amount of space on board, but even if they are more empty than a 365, that'll be down to the fact that there's more of them. With an increased service of course there'll be less passengers per train. If the 365s ran through the core there would be no difference at all.

I think eventually, yes, rail travel will be transformed very much for the better. Thameslink opens up London to GN passengers, rather than dumping everyone at Kings Cross with the only alternative being Finsbury Park. Now and in the future, they'll still be able to alight at Finsbury Park, and St Pancras (in lieu of Kings Cross), but also have Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, and London Bridge. Speaking to my booking office colleagues, there are many passengers who are buying tickets to the core, as it's more convenient for them than KGX. Overtime I think most people will prefer a train that runs through due to the improved connections, or simply just taking them walking distance to their destination.
It would be good if there was interchange with the Central Line between City Thameslink and St Paul's, but once Crossrail opens at Farringdon that will provide the east-west link through the West End and the service will be favoured even more.

For the record, I was against TL taking over GN routes from when we first heard about it. Part of me still is. It used to be a running joke at work to look at the 'Our Service' page of the intranet - most days GN would be 'green' status and TL would be 'red' status. Now of course GN feels the delays from the TL network and TL feels the delays from the GN. That's why I didn't want to see the two joined, but I think by and large, it will work well... eventually. Control need to learn a plan B and have some ideas beyond cancelling stops before that happens though. (Speaking of which, where did this phrase 'skip-stopping' come from? I've done over a decade on the railway with three different TOCs and never once come across this term internally. In fact, I've only seen it on here...)

I get the point about 700s being longer, however this doesn’t provide a full explanation. At my station in the evening there would always be a large number of people alighting from any down service. The day I took a 700 home (with the preceding 700 service cancelled to add to it) just a handful got off.

If we take 1R66, the 2154 KX to Letchworth, 2x365. One might expect this service to run virtually empty to Hitchin and Letchworth, as it runs just 4 minutes behind a Horsham-Peterborough 700 for Hitchin users, and with 387 services either side for Letchworth users. In fact it’s very busy to Hitchin for all but the front couple of carriages, and a healthy number to Letchworth too. With this service being very much outside the standard pattern at that time of night, one might expect people to simply play safe and stick to the more frequent core service. However this hasn’t happened at all - loadings have held up.

Unless there’s a secret contingent of Networker fans who come out to play every night?!

 

[GoatSarah]

Speaking to my booking office colleagues, there are many passengers who are buying tickets to the core, as it's more convenient for them than KGX.

Those are still a thing? Last time I asked for a day return from CBG to BFR the machine sold me a London Terminals ticket.
I assumed they had scrapped the "London Thameslink" ticket as the machine didn't offer it.

 

[Fred26]

Those are still a thing? Last time I asked for a day return from CBG to BFR the machine sold me a London Terminals ticket.
I assumed they had scrapped the "London Thameslink" ticket as the machine didn't offer it.

I'm not sure how it works, or which stations are covered, but 'London Thameslink' tickets exist.

 

[Aictos]

Unless there’s a secret contingent of Networker fans who come out to play every night?!

I think you're quite right seeing how many on here keep on and on and on about the Class 365s, I doubt I need to say who though do I?

 

[swt_passenger]

Those are still a thing? Last time I asked for a day return from CBG to BFR the machine sold me a London Terminals ticket.
I assumed they had scrapped the "London Thameslink" ticket as the machine didn't offer it.

You need to exercise caution here because London Terminals is not supposed to be valid to Blackfriars from the north.

 

[Aictos]

I'm not sure how it works, or which stations are covered, but 'London Thameslink' tickets exist.

Indeed they do but you have to ask for the right ticket as there are three different types that can be retailed now for such a journey as Cambridge to Blackfriars which I'm sure your colleagues in the ticket office can verify...

Basically as far as I understand it, these tickets are routed Not Underground so they do exist as verified by Brfares.com

A example can be found further down in my post for you to use as a example...

You need to exercise caution here because London Terminals is not supposed to be valid to Blackfriars from the north.

Bearing in mind there has been changes to tickets now available, you need to ensure you get sold the right ticket because while London Terminals from north of the Thames is only valid as far as Farringdon?

However why would a Cambridge to Blackfriars ticket come up as a London Terminals option if it was not valid south of Farringdon for example?

You now have three choices that you may well be sold, talk about being spoilt for choice...

ANYTIME R
SOR Route
VIA CITY THAMESL Validity
Outward: FIVE DAYS
Return: ONE MONTH
Adult £52.20
Child £26.10
Fare Setter: THAMESLINK AND GT NORTHERN TL

ANYTIME R
SOR Route
NOT UNDERGROUND Validity
Outward: FIVE DAYS
Return: ONE MONTH
Adult £52.20
Child £26.10
Ticket issued to: LONDON THAMESLNK
Fare Setter: THAMESLINK AND GT NORTHERN TL

ANYTIME R
SOR Route
ANY PERMITTED Validity
Outward: FIVE DAYS
Return: ONE MONTH
Adult £50.20
Child £25.10
Ticket issued to: LONDON TERMINALS

From that we can see that the OP has three choices of the same ticket:

Cambridge to Blackfriars routed City Thameslink
Cambridge to London Thameslink routed Not Underground
Cambridge to London Terminals

The other point I don't get are the tickets routed Not Underground and Via City Thameslink now they cost the same, are valid the same route so why two separate options?

Why not get rid of the Via City Thameslink restriction and just have tickets routed to London Thameslink routed Not London Underground and tickets routed to London Terminals as if you're travelling between Finsbury Park and Blackfriars not using the Underground you have to pass though City Thameslink anyway...

I doubt the DfT will lose any sleep over the removal of the excess ticket option as both tickets cost the same, it just makes it more simple for the end user.

 

[GoatSarah]

You need to exercise caution here because London Terminals is not supposed to be valid to Blackfriars from the north.

London terminals is literally what the machine sells me when I ask for a BFR ticket. No other types are available.

I'll record video of it in case I ever get gripped. "I bought a ticket to Blackfriars, this is what the machine gave me, look."