Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[ChiefPlanner]

Thanks for your response, you will be surprised that my head isn’t totally in the sand.

I have just experienced GTR skipping stops for delays as low as 7 minutes. Then never actually recover 1 minute (or even lose further time). This could be a breakdown in communication as the controller may have hoped the train would use the fast, but remained on the slow behind the stopping train.

Do GTR actually get any punishment for PPM failure as this is a management contract? They don’t care if passengers stop using the service as they don’t have revenue risk, as we can see by their refusal to sort out the weekend service.

I see in Scotland political pressure has came into force to only miss stops if the operator has no choice. Other users may disagree but on great northern it seems to be the default reaction if the train is only slightly late, which could be recovered in the turnaround assuming the train didn’t get any later.

All of these "service recovery intiatives" have to handed to the DfT , - that very well known area of total and expert railway expertise to be agreed and signed off. There has to be some explanation as to why these things were incurred (and yes - I have done this job on both sides) - and whether it is permissible in the terms of the franchise. If not agreed , they go (eventually) into breach or default.

I suspect that the sheer volume of SRI's over the last has probably overwhelmed things (in all areas , to all parties)

Of course - the whole thing about holding operators free of blame for capes and missed calls , was trialed way back on the MML and then rolled out nationwide. Perhaps too eagerly pounced on and implemented in my opinion , where , absolute punctuality is a dream , reasonable punctuality is expected, but at the end of the day it is all about getting people home or to work.

I write this having had a good tidy up at home - my December 1998 franchise performance pack for the Silverlink franchise showed I (as Operations Manager) , upped performance to over 95% on the Metro routes and Northampton line - with 99% reliabilty. We had rubbish class 117's on some lines and a tight traincrew base. We did not have service recovery. We took the hit on performance , and I do not think we did badly. Yes we caught it on the inevitable big incident.

 

[bramling]

That's your personal opinion though, the Class 365s lost their claim to being comfortable when the WAGN refurbishment was ripped out by FCC/GTR with the only comfort being the few priority only seats which is mine.

Not quite sure what your point is here. The 365s remained with their original interior until a "refresh" carried out by FCC in the late 2000s, which basically involved replacing carpet, seat covers and some interior repainting - the seat layout remained unchanged. This remained the case until the mid 2010s, when they received a leasing company inspired further refresh, replacing carpet with lino, again new seat covers, and accessibility modifications in particular revising the seat layout. I wouldn't say this made them less comfortable - what it did so was remove two table bays per vehicle and replace with airline seating, which can cause squabbles on occasions when a family board and find all the table seats taken. Hardly losing their claim to be comfortable, even if a downgrade on what they were before.

As to your claims of windswept Farringdon you make it sound like worse then it actually is, it's not that bad and as to the deafened by the squeal at St Pancras claim, that's just the infrastructure so again you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

The point is that it's hardly desirable compared to turning up at King's Cross, finding the train is on time and already in the platform, and sitting on the train until departure time. Clearly people are finding this, otherwise we wouldn't have a situation where someone turns up for example at 20:25 and boards the 20:54 service to travel to Hitchin, allowing two core services to come and go in the meantime both of which offer an earlier arrival.

Of course forgetting that Thameslink also run from Kings Cross which with the St Pancras ones actually gives you timetabled 3tph which is acceptable especially when you also consider the 2tph that Great Northern also runs from Kings Cross so for Hitchin, Letchworth users they are spoilt for choice with 5tph.

Few are using the 2Cxx services to travel to somewhere like Hitchin I can assure you, especially in the down direction, as the journey is so painfully long.

As to the unpredictability of the Thameslink service, as TL serve both stations there's nothing stopping you from picking one up at the other station other then your well advertised hatred of the Class 700s and the GTR timetable.
Indeed but that does seem like hard work for some although it really isn't unless you're the type of person who leaves everything until the last minute?
Plus with Open Time Trains etc you can see where your train is too so bar last minute alterations at the Cross there's plenty of time to be on the platform.

I'm afraid the above doesn't really make sense to me so can't comment further.

 

[bramling]

All of these "service recovery intiatives" have to handed to the DfT , - that very well known area of total and expert railway expertise to be agreed and signed off. There has to be some explanation as to why these things were incurred (and yes - I have done this job on both sides) - and whether it is permissible in the terms of the franchise. If not agreed , they go (eventually) into breach or default.

I suspect that the sheer volume of SRI's over the last has probably overwhelmed things (in all areas , to all parties)

Of course - the whole thing about holding operators free of blame for capes and missed calls , was trialed way back on the MML and then rolled out nationwide. Perhaps too eagerly pounced on and implemented in my opinion , where , absolute punctuality is a dream , reasonable punctuality is expected, but at the end of the day it is all about getting people home or to work.

I write this having had a good tidy up at home - my December 1998 franchise performance pack for the Silverlink franchise showed I (as Operations Manager) , upped performance to over 95% on the Metro routes and Northampton line - with 99% reliabilty. We had rubbish class 117's on some lines and a tight traincrew base. We did not have service recovery. We took the hit on performance , and I do not think we did badly. Yes we caught it on the inevitable big incident.

For me the issue isn't so much about how the service recovery is done, but the fact that there's a need for it in the first place. Anyone reasonable can appreciate that it's best to get the service back "on book", and (barring occasions where they do something daft like cut stops from a service and then route is behind a stopping service) generally the measures adopted are effective at achieving that, and can be justified on the basis that it's in the greater good.

*However*, there bigger issue is that this service (i) has a greater likelihood of going wrong due to the through running, (ii) seems to take a massively long time to recover, and (iii) clearly doesn't have enough resilience built into it such that delays run out naturally. There's then the difficulty that recovery measures can hit some stations or journeys particularly hard due to the half-hourly GN service pattern, compared to the 4tph Midland service pattern.

Still, it's only going to get worse as more services materialise including more through running. More late running introduced and less breathing space in the infrastructure.

 

[GoatSarah]

Indeed, as you can see here >

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...19/06/03/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Ta! Hopefully that’s not just a placeholder.

 

[Aictos]

Few are using the 2Cxx services to travel to somewhere like Hitchin I can assure you, especially in the down direction, as the journey is so painfully long.

As long as you get a seat does it really matter?

I'm afraid the above doesn't really make sense to me so can't comment further.

Without having my post deleted again, I will explain just why I said what I said and why it actually makes sense if not to you...

You state that the TL service is unreliable and you don't know how late your train will be unless you board one of the GN peak services from Kings Cross to Letchworth?

I was merely pointing out that if the hourly Brighton to Cambridge happens to be late then you still have the 2tph from Kings Cross that TL operate which okay are slow but they get you from A to B and also a a backup you also have the 2tph from Kings Cross that GN operate.

So in short was trying to explain that even if you do get delays from the Core you still have TL services from Kings Cross which are just as reliable as the GN services because they started from there and the only reason why you don't use them is simply because of your well known hatred to the Class 700s.

Ta! Hopefully that’s not just a placeholder.

You're welcome, I did try it before posting and it seem to work okay.

 

[samuelmorris]

As long as you get a seat does it really matter?

Yes, it's more time out of your day, and the seats aren't particularly comfortable anyway due to the legroom intrusion.

 

[Failed Unit]

Ta! Hopefully that’s not just a placeholder.

Unfortunately take this as desirable rather than what will happen. Ahead of the December timetable change GTR had a full weekend service in the planners.

GTR have a habit of updating such information late. Take for example the 2nd and 3rd March. No trains are running through WGC. All other operators on the ECML have their amended service on journey planners - not GTR of course. They still show trains through WGC they wont run.

You can actually book advance tickets on them. So basically don’t trust that source of information. GTR don’t treat providing information that helps passengers plan journeys as a high priority. If you book a journey that is not possible tough luck.

Looking at my local station. We could be back to May 2018 frequency. 1 tph to Royston 1 tph to Cambridge. Hopefully the Royston one can be substituted for something other than a 700. However had my hopes raised before so I will wait until May before I get too excited. GTR have a habit of promising stuff but failing to actually deliver it.

 

[bramling]

As long as you get a seat does it really matter?



Without having my post deleted again, I will explain just why I said what I said and why it actually makes sense if not to you...

You state that the TL service is unreliable and you don't know how late your train will be unless you board one of the GN peak services from Kings Cross to Letchworth?

I was merely pointing out that if the hourly Brighton to Cambridge happens to be late then you still have the 2tph from Kings Cross that TL operate which okay are slow but they get you from A to B and also a a backup you also have the 2tph from Kings Cross that GN operate.

So in short was trying to explain that even if you do get delays from the Core you still have TL services from Kings Cross which are just as reliable as the GN services because they started from there and the only reason why you don't use them is simply because of your well known hatred to the Class 700s.



You're welcome, I did try it before posting and it seem to work okay.

I fear you read things a little literally. If you read back, you’ll find I wasn’t talking about me. Yes, you’re right, I dislike the 700s and am fortunate that I’m able to plan to avoid them, even if it results in a later arrival, and as a spin-off benefit I avoid any pissing about going to and fro between KX and St Pancras or having to wait for ages on a core platform.

However the point I was making is that others appear to be doing similar. I wasn’t referring specifically to peaks, but to the evening services where capacity and getting a seat simply isn’t an issue. Why would a regular user bother to turn up at KX and board a 365 coming up to half an hour early and let two core services come and go in the meantime? We’re not talking about leisure users who may not know much different, but seasoned commuter types.

Meanwhile I see tonight has been beset by cancellations. I couldn’t have used the 700 before my 365s tonight as it was cancelled, as it often has been since May. Wonder what the problem was this time? Pre-May I used to use 1P80 on a regular basis, which was the equivalent service to the 2146 St Pancras to Peterborough. I’m scratching my head to think of a *single* time 1P80 was cancelled in many years.

 

[bramling]

Yes, it's more time out of your day, and the seats aren't particularly comfortable anyway due to the legroom intrusion.

Course it matters. The 2Cxx services take nearly an hour to get to Hitchin or Letchworth. 317s were timed to do the journey in 40 minutes in 1997 with the same calling pattern. Travel transformed for good?

 

[Bedpan]

Travel transformed for good?

Travel cocked up for good more like!

 

[Bedpan]

Well according to the data on Real Time Trains at the moment, from May back to 4TPH to/from Bedford. But the offical line from https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables
is
"We are planning to introduce additions to the weekend service in May 2019 and further increases at future timetable changes. Further details will be shared once the final timetables have been determined and agreed with industry partners."

I've just followed the link and I don't know if I'm going completely mad, but I can't see any reference to introducing weekend additions anywhere.

I've also looked at Real Time Trains (for 1st of June) and yes, the good news is that there is an extra half hourly service from Bedford to Gatwick Airport to complement the current half hourly Bedford to Brighton. But what I don't understand is why, if on Sundays we can have a useful "all stations to London and then round the Sutton Loop" service in addition to the four Brighton Line trains an hour, there is no similar local services oon Saturday? Can anybody explain?

 

[Failed Unit]

Course it matters. The 2Cxx services take nearly an hour to get to Hitchin or Letchworth. 317s were timed to do the journey in 40 minutes in 1997 with the same calling pattern. Travel transformed for good?

The trains are very empty leaving WGC so that certainly confirms your view. I am sure most from kings cross prefer the faster more comfortable x24 and x54 services. In fact for WGC it is quicker to use them and double back at Welwyn north. I wouldn’t risk it as the service is generally so unreliable.

Not sure how many travelling north of WGC got on at Finsbury Park. Or using the smaller stations after Royston.

 

[DaveN]

I've just followed the link and I don't know if I'm going completely mad, but I can't see any reference to introducing weekend additions anywhere.

Sorry, you need to expand the Winter timetable FAQs section and then see under "When will you increase the weekend timetable?" answer.

But what I don't understand is why, if on Sundays we can have a useful "all stations to London and then round the Sutton Loop" service in addition to the four Brighton Line trains an hour, there is no similar local services oon Saturday? Can anybody explain?

One possibility... For drivers, Sundays are treated separately from the rest of the week. Newer recruits are required to work more Sundays than older ones. The loop services are operated from a new depot and so will have proportionally more new recruits, so there may be enough drivers available for this. If there still aren't quite enough drivers for loop services in total, then having fewer services on Saturdays helps with having enough drivers Monday-Friday to include the services that were restored in December.

 

[Aictos]

I fear you read things a little literally. If you read back, you’ll find I wasn’t talking about me. Yes, you’re right, I dislike the 700s and am fortunate that I’m able to plan to avoid them, even if it results in a later arrival, and as a spin-off benefit I avoid any pissing about going to and fro between KX and St Pancras or having to wait for ages on a core platform.

Why are you pissing around between the two stations when TL uses both, why not just use Kings Cross and get the first service be it Class 700 or your beloved Class 365s?

However the point I was making is that others appear to be doing similar. I wasn’t referring specifically to peaks, but to the evening services where capacity and getting a seat simply isn’t an issue. Why would a regular user bother to turn up at KX and board a 365 coming up to half an hour early and let two core services come and go in the meantime? We’re not talking about leisure users who may not know much different, but seasoned commuter types.

Because they have a thing about not wanting to use the Class 700s maybe?

The Class 700s can and do shift a lot more people more easier then any Class 365 could ever dream of which is why in the peaks they are good at what they do ie moving large amounts of people.

I can't explain why people would rather let two perfectly good services go just to use a specific service based on the traction which is what seems to be the general idea here, surely the idea of commuting is get a train from A to B and 1. Get a seat and 2. Just get on with the travelling?

As to waiting ages on a Core platform, it's been patiently explained and you should know this by now that there are tools available such as Real Train Times, Traksy, Open Train Times etc which tell you where your train is so there is no need to be doing what you suggest and hang around a platform for ages.

Meanwhile I see tonight has been beset by cancellations. I couldn’t have used the 700 before my 365s tonight as it was cancelled, as it often has been since May. Wonder what the problem was this time? Pre-May I used to use 1P80 on a regular basis, which was the equivalent service to the 2146 St Pancras to Peterborough. I’m scratching my head to think of a *single* time 1P80 was cancelled in many years.

The reason for the cancellations last night was a points failure on the approaches to Huntingdon station resulting in Down services having to go though Platform 3 and ALL Up services being held outside the station as they were unable to access Platform 2 or the Up Fast.

At one point, they had 10 trains all waiting to head south though Huntingdon, no idea why LNER couldn't hold trains at Peterborough, Grantham and Newark Northgate until the line was open.

It took Network Rail over a hour to get some form of movement going but that's because of how bad the failure was, last time I looked they had to use hand signalmen to conduct trains though the affected area.

 

[bramling]

I can't explain why people would rather let two perfectly good services go just to use a specific service based on the traction which is what seems to be the general idea here, surely the idea of commuting is get a train from A to B and 1. Get a seat and 2. Just get on with the travelling?

Well yes. Which is why it's curious that people seem to be selecting a particular service over others for some reason.

As to waiting ages on a Core platform, it's been patiently explained and you should know this by now that there are tools available such as Real Train Times, Traksy, Open Train Times etc which tell you where your train is so there is no need to be doing what you suggest and hang around a platform for ages.

I don't want to have to arse around looking at apps, I want to just turn up at the station for a given service and it run as published. This isn't an unreasonable expectation. Pre-May this was the default position.

There's a number of reasons why one can't always use apps. Phone battery might have died for one, or approaching on the Underground where access to apps isn't always viably available. And of course the average passenger might very well not be aware of these facilities, most of which are of course unofficial in any case.

The reason for the cancellations last night was a points failure on the approaches to Huntingdon station resulting in Down services having to go though Platform 3 and ALL Up services being held outside the station as they were unable to access Platform 2 or the Up Fast.

At one point, they had 10 trains all waiting to head south though Huntingdon, no idea why LNER couldn't hold trains at Peterborough, Grantham and Newark Northgate until the line was open.

It took Network Rail over a hour to get some form of movement going but that's because of how bad the failure was, last time I looked they had to use hand signalmen to conduct trains though the affected area.

Again, seems to have recovered at glacial pace.

 

[GoatSarah]

Well yes. Which is why it's curious that people seem to be selecting a particular service over others for some reason.

I will take an STP to CBG service in preference to a KGX one because the 700s offer a smoother ride than the electrostars and I will get a table to myself by sitting in rear 1st.

 

[bramling]

I will take an STP to CBG service in preference to a KGX one because the 700s offer a smoother ride than the electrostars and I will get a table to myself by sitting in rear 1st.

Okay here's an open question. Would people take a 700 service in preference to something else if the declassified first wasn't an option?

 

[Bedpan]

Sorry, you need to expand the Winter timetable FAQs section and then see under "When will you increase the weekend timetable?" answer.


One possibility... For drivers, Sundays are treated separately from the rest of the week. Newer recruits are required to work more Sundays than older ones. The loop services are operated from a new depot and so will have proportionally more new recruits, so there may be enough drivers available for this. If there still aren't quite enough drivers for loop services in total, then having fewer services on Saturdays helps with having enough drivers Monday-Friday to include the services that were restored in December.

Thanks DaveN - that seems a very plausible explanation and hopefully we might get loop trains back on a Saturday at some time in the future.

 

[Aictos]

Again, seems to have recovered at glacial pace.

And this is the fault of GTR? I've already said what the issue is and why it took so long, maybe you might want to ask why were LNER at Peterborough still sending stuff south when they knew there was a issue ongoing at Huntingdon...

With the GTR services from Huntingdon, yes there were cancellations and services delayed of around a hour until the last two southbound services but that wasn't the fault of GTR but rather a issue affecting all operators passing though Huntingdon.

Okay here's an open question. Would people take a 700 service in preference to something else if the declassified first wasn't an option?

Yes, although I like the idea of the declassified 1st Class, it wouldn't bother me if it wasn't a option as long as it ran as booked and got me from A to B then I have no qualms what turns up to operate my service.

Does that answer your open question?

 

[bramling]

And this is the fault of GTR? I've already said what the issue is and why it took so long, maybe you might want to ask why were LNER at Peterborough still sending stuff south when they knew there was a issue ongoing at Huntingdon...

With the GTR services from Huntingdon, yes there were cancellations and services delayed of around a hour until the last two southbound services but that wasn't the fault of GTR but rather a issue affecting all operators passing though Huntingdon.

Did I say it was the fault of GTR?

Matters not whose fault it was, but again the service seems to have degenerated into nothing at times. This didn't happen with the old service.

 

[Aictos]

Did I say it was the fault of GTR?

Matters not whose fault it was, but again the service seems to have degenerated into nothing at times. This didn't happen with the old service.

Absolute rubbish, so unless I'm wrong you're trying to say that the old timetable wouldn't have been as affected as the service was last night?

Regardless of what timetable is in use as I pointed out, it affected multiple operators not just GTR so I fail to see your point other then you point scoring again over GTR not running what was booked/running services very late due to the Network Rail fault.

 

[bramling]

Absolute rubbish, so unless I'm wrong you're trying to say that the old timetable wouldn't have been as affected as the service was last night?

There is something about this service which means things are having a wider and longer effect. Naturally with each trip being twice as long as hitherto, this in itself will affect service recovery. Likewise the fact that you can no longer just "make up" a northbound service at King's Cross if a train or crew is available. The fact is you now have a half-hourly service with minimal turnround at each end, and clearly the crewing is similarly intensively diagrammed. No wonder it's not working well - hence why non stopping is happening so often as it seems to be one of the few recovery measures actually available.

Regardless of what timetable is in use as I pointed out, it affected multiple operators not just GTR so I fail to see your point other then you point scoring again over GTR not running what was booked/running services very late due to the Network Rail fault.

Funny how I'm allegedly point scoring against GTR when I didn't even mention them...

 

[Failed Unit]

Regardless of what timetable is in use as I pointed out, it affected multiple operators not just GTR so I fail to see your point other then you point scoring again over GTR not running what was booked/running services very late due to the Network Rail fault.

GTR always seem to take the longest to recover. Let’s take the fatality last Monday. All other operators on the ECML had recovered by 1400. GTR were still struggling by 2000. Yes other issues occurred on the network south of the river. But it is the problem with Thameslink that the can’t recover. GTR in particular don’t have a plan b when stuff does happen. As others stated. The timetable is so poorly resourced if someone sneezes it collapses. (Or at least how it feels as a user)

 

[bramling]

GTR always seem to take the longest to recover. Let’s take the fatality last Monday. All other operators on the ECML had recovered by 1400. GTR were still struggling by 2000. Yes other issues occurred on the network south of the river. But it is the problem with Thameslink that the can’t recover. GTR in particular don’t have a plan b when stuff does happen. As others stated. The timetable is so poorly resourced if someone sneezes it collapses. (Or at least how it feels as a user)

I've heard it suggested that the concentration of control staff hasn't helped, certainly as far as the GN side of things goes. This would certainly explain the ineffectiveness of some control decisions - e.g. amend to run non-stop from Hitchin to Cambridge only to be signalled directly behind an all-stations service.

 

[Verulamius]

The track access consultation for GTR services from May 2019 has been published on the Network Rail website.

Cambridge to Brighton goes to half hourly.

Moorgate to Stevenage gets cut short at Watton-at-Stone

Peak Royston trains now terminate at Baldock.

20 trains through the core in the peak hour.

 

[GoatSarah]

Okay here's an open question. Would people take a 700 service in preference to something else if the declassified first wasn't an option?

Trickier. The 387s have power sockets in standard which the 700s don’t. However, I often go to Westminster which is a few stops from Blackfriars on the well ventilated district line vs using the emphysema inducing Victoria line from KGX, so it gets a bit more awkward.

I could live without a power socket on the 700 if I was guaranteed a tray table, but it’s hit and miss whether you get one.

That being said, the ride quality is still infinitely preferable to an electrostar. How did they manage to make them so bad?

 

[samuelmorris]

Trickier. The 387s have power sockets in standard which the 700s don’t. However, I often go to Westminster which is a few stops from Blackfriars on the well ventilated district line vs using the emphysema inducing Victoria line from KGX, so it gets a bit more awkward.

I could live without a power socket on the 700 if I was guaranteed a tray table, but it’s hit and miss whether you get one.

That being said, the ride quality is still infinitely preferable to an electrostar. How did they manage to make them so bad?

Westminster from Kings Cross on the Victoria line would mean changing at Green Park which is a pretty busy interchange. On that basis alone I'd probably take the slightly inferior ride on a 700 to Blackfriars.

 

[Aictos]

GTR always seem to take the longest to recover. Let’s take the fatality last Monday. All other operators on the ECML had recovered by 1400. GTR were still struggling by 2000. Yes other issues occurred on the network south of the river. But it is the problem with Thameslink that the can’t recover. GTR in particular don’t have a plan b when stuff does happen. As others stated. The timetable is so poorly resourced if someone sneezes it collapses. (Or at least how it feels as a user)

Of course not forgetting that LNER, Grand Central and Hull Trains all have far more turnaround time available to them which is why they are not as badly affected as GTR plus as a IC operator they have extra padding in the timetable anyway compared to GTR which as a commuter operator doesn't have as much turnaround time at Kings Cross then, now or ever.

So regardless, of course they've going to be quicker at service recovery...

 

[samuelmorris]

This is the point I was about to make - I wonder if the Thameslink timetable would have been a lot more viable if longer turnarounds were scheduled in.

 

[Failed Unit]

Of course not forgetting that LNER, Grand Central and Hull Trains all have far more turnaround time available to them which is why they are not as badly affected as GTR plus as a IC operator they have extra padding in the timetable anyway compared to GTR which as a commuter operator doesn't have as much turnaround time at Kings Cross then, now or ever.

So regardless, of course they've going to be quicker at service recovery...

They also have a plan B. GTR don’t.

Not much turn around at kings cross. 30 minutes isn’t bad for a commuter operator on the Cambridge- London service.

I know you don’t use the service so don’t have a clue about what we have had to put up with since May. But when you have sat on 3 consecutive cancellations I would love to see your evidence they have any plan at all when somethings goes wrong. No driver at Finsbury Park. Let’s send the relief by train. So they get stuck behind the incident and block up Finsbury Park.