Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[whoosh]

The issues surrounding 717s are over signal sighting. The driver sits further back from the windscreen and the view to the right isn't good at all. Approximately 20 metres (One car length) needs to be given to sight a right handed signal (which is most of the signals on the NCL). This places many stopping markers back and results in SDO for five cars.

I'm guessing the issue at Brookman's Park is on the Down Slow (which is a six car platform). The current stopping point is right up against the signal, which is on the left (717s have a worse view to the left as well - a narrower tunnel-like view compared to 313s). However, stopping further back could also cause problems as the signal is obscured on approach by a deftly placed overhead wire mast which completely obscures it!
On a 313 the driver can lean forward to see the signal before departure, or look out of their side drop down window at the current stopping point. On 717 a driver can't see the signal by leaning forwards as the view out of the windscreen is much narrower, and the drop down window is in the cab door which is slightly behind the driver - so no good.

 

[Failed Unit]

Why not ask GTR? Brookmans Park is weird for sure.

You never get the truth from GTR.

I suspect it is a combination of poor specifications of the train. Along with because GTR screwed up the timetable so badly they didn’t have enough drivers to test run and find out these issues. I suspect had this introduction not co-incided with the timetable melt down Brookmans park’s problem would be discover much quicker.

Thanks for response above BTW whoosh.

Don’t stop at Brookmans park. Someone will soon be moaning to Chiris Grayling that his pet franchise is failing another franchise commitment.

But new stock introduction seems much more painful when you look at this and the 385s

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t have them now. Just from memory the classes on great northern were around.

700 - about 10k per failure.
313 - about 15k per failure.
365 - about 25k per failure.
387 - about 28k per failure.

None as good as their other Siemens trains such as the 350. The 317, 319 and 321s were also much higher. Around 20k mark.

The 313s do a lot of power change overs. They are much more reliable. (But also simple beasts which the staff have a lot of experience on)

Where are the MTIN figures published, as I couldn't find them. Cheers in advance.

From the January 2009 Modern Railways..

Fleet reliability, Moving annual average to Period 7 2007/8 (the last Golden Spanner year where Thameslink was a 319 only operation)

FCC 319: 13,956 MP5MD
FCC 313: 11,355 MP5MD

Note that MP5MD is Miles per 5 minute delay, which is a less challenging version of MTIN which is effectively miles per 3 minute delay. Therefore the figures above would have been lower if measured as MTIN.

Edit: @AM9 this was to answer your question, and I forgot to quote you!

 

[Failed Unit]

From the January 2009 Modern Railways..

Fleet reliability, Moving annual average to Period 7 2007/8 (the last Golden Spanner year where Thameslink was a 319 only operation)

FCC 319: 13,956 MP5MD
FCC 313: 11,355 MP5MD

Note that MP5MD is Miles per 5 minute delay, which is a less challenging version of MTIN which is effectively miles per 3 minute delay. Therefore the figures above would have been lower if measured as MTIN.

Edit: @AM9 this was to answer your question, and I forgot to quote you!

Thank you.
Do you still have the latest version? The 313s were actually much higher in the most recent survey. But not seen the 700s hit 10k yet (although the 707s have, but not by much)

 

[choochoochoo]

You never get the truth from GTR.

I suspect it is a combination of poor specifications of the train. Along with because GTR screwed up the timetable so badly they didn’t have enough drivers to test run and find out these issues. I suspect had this introduction not co-incided with the timetable melt down Brookmans park’s problem would be discover much quicker.

Thanks for response above BTW whoosh.

Don’t stop at Brookmans park. Someone will soon be moaning to Chiris Grayling that his pet franchise is failing another franchise commitment.

But new stock introduction seems much more painful when you look at this and the 385s

I don't understand how with modern project management and system engineering techniques that the brief and specification could have been so bad that signal sighting at each station was not looked into.

All I can think is that the train was being designed for the future and not the present, so in-cab signalling means trip cocks and signal sighting were never looked at properly because they expect these things to not be around for the majority of the trains' life.

Take a hit in the early years and things will be ok in the longer term. Not the cleverest way of doing things.

 

[jon0844]

Wasn't 2019 once mooted as being when the ECML would change to in cab signalling?

 

[Failed Unit]

Wasn't 2019 once mooted as being when the ECML would change to in cab signalling?

Don’t recall 2019. But certainly 2020 mentioned.

However considering these trains were supposed to be in service in 2018 and the in cab signalling was only desirable rather than a funded commitment that was a massive gamble if they hoped the problem would go away.

VTECs gamble on unfunded upgrades was similar but I don’t think resignaling was one of the issue was it?

 

[jon0844]

I wasn't implying the trains were ever going to start with it, but it does seem that the Government is quite happy to scale back improvement works when there's a way to bodge, whether with more bi-mode trains to delay electrification or using SDO to avoid moving signals.

I can understand why this makes sense financially of course.

To be honest, I don't see a problem with SDO being used.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thank you.
Do you still have the latest version? The 313s were actually much higher in the most recent survey. But not seen the 700s hit 10k yet (although the 707s have, but not by much)

Well the 319s have been cast to the 4 winds; these are MTIN Moving Annual Average from the
Jan 2019 Modern Railways. (With thanks to Cap’n Deltic)

319s
WMT 12,932
Northern 8,421

313s
GTR GN 15,100
GTR SN 11,313

I wouldn’t say those figures are ‘much higher’

From my experience of Thameslink commuting, I would say that the 700s are at least as reliable as what they replaced from a service performance point of view. They tend to have two types of service affecting failures; one that causes the train to be held for 10 minutes or so and then it gets on the move, and the other is a complete meltdown that needs a full reboot, 30 min delay and passengers off. The latter is rather rare - I have been affected by only 2 or 3 of these since the 700s were in service, and none recently. The former is more common, but even then not particularly so.

 

[jon0844]

My only real issue with 700s is when the doors don't want to open, and that can often attributed to a new driver having not been shown the 'workarounds' and spending an age trying to get through to someone in fleet..

As time goes on, I think a lot of problems will stop through better knowledge and quicker fault finding and fixing.

 

[Failed Unit]

Well the 319s have been cast to the 4 winds; these are MTIN Moving Annual Average from the
Jan 2019 Modern Railways. (With thanks to Cap’n Deltic)

319s
WMT 12,932
Northern 8,421

313s
GTR GN 15,100
GTR SN 11,313

I wouldn’t say those figures are ‘much higher’

From my experience of Thameslink commuting, I would say that the 700s are at least as reliable as what they replaced from a service performance point of view. They tend to have two types of service affecting failures; one that causes the train to be held for 10 minutes or so and then it gets on the move, and the other is a complete meltdown that needs a full reboot, 30 min delay and passengers off. The latter is rather rare - I have been affected by only 2 or 3 of these since the 700s were in service, and none recently. The former is more common, but even then not particularly so.

Lies damn lies and statistics. but I mean in the respect that is still at 20% increase in reliability between the 2 figures. I am sure we will both take a 20% increase in reliability in the service.

But really you sum up the difference between the 2 service groups. On MML train gets cancelled. No drama 15 mins to the next one. On great northern it is 30 (at least) so a single cancelled train has a bigger impact on the passengers on GN.

That said. I have confidence that Siemens will sort out the 700s (and introduce the 717s) one day. Just hope that day isn’t too far in the future. Not as confident that GTR will ever get the timetable to work. Even a 5 minute delay soon seems to cascade with the bottle necks on the route such as Digswell.

 

[Bald Rick]

Lies damn lies and statistics. but I mean in the respect that is still at 20% increase in reliability between the 2 figures. I am sure we will both take a 20% increase in reliability in the service.

But really you sum up the difference between the 2 service groups. On MML train gets cancelled. No drama 15 mins to the next one. On great northern it is 30 (at least) so a single cancelled train has a bigger impact on the passengers on GN.

That said. I have confidence that Siemens will sort out the 700s (and introduce the 717s) one day. Just hope that day isn’t too far in the future. Not as confident that GTR will ever get the timetable to work. Even a 5 minute delay soon seems to cascade with the bottle necks on the route such as Digswell.

The timetable is similar (but in a different way) in the peak on the MML, even a 2 minute delay can cause ripples back for quite a while, particularly on the down fast in the evening. I agree that the impact of a cancellation is more painful on the GN, and there’s do still seem to be issues finding drivers at Finsbury Park for example.

What I will say is that I have spent much time observing the TL core in recent weeks now that the timetable has settled down, drivers are trained etc. When there is a train out of sequence, or a small delay such that a small queue builds up, it is remarkable how quickly trains pump through the core - headways usually average 2 1/2 minutes (often shorter) for 20-30 minutes until the timetable is recovered. This is without ATO of course; when that is in 2 minute headways (45 second station dwell, 75 second platform reoccupation) will be a regular occurrence.

Notwithstanding Cap’n Deltic’s view, it is definitely the case that longer fixed formation trains are at a disadvantage in therms of comparing MTINs. A 12 car 377 does 3 times as much mileage for the MTIN calls as a 12 car 700. So a door fault, say, on a 12 car 377 will have 1/3rd the effect on the MTIN as on a 700.

However it is also true to say that the 700 is effectively 2 x single ended units in multiple, but not numbered or recorded as such, and therefore there is redundancy built in for if one half ‘fails’. This has happened to me once or twice, and no delay has occurred. Electostars in particular are reknowned for transferring faults from one unit to another.

Siemens will, of course, get reliability up. It’s costing them cash now, and it must be painful.

 

[jon0844]

313s are now causing big problems, holding up more than just themselves. They'll be partly responsible for some of the skip stopping we all hate. Users on the Hertford Loop have had a particularly bad time.

I don't have up to date figures on reliability, but I would say 313s have fallen off a cliff in terms of reliability in the last few months, and only getting worse. When you have trains taken out because the internal fittings are breaking, you know it's bad!

717s really should help a lot. With faster shutdowns and turnarounds, faster acceleration and wider doors, they should be able to recover from the odd little delay a lot better. That does of course rely on them being able to open the doors quickly and not presenting problems like the 700s. I am about to be accused of being an apologist again, but I really do think the 717s will make a huge difference.

The 313 problem is simply that they should be going now. If they were expected to remain for another few years, they'd be still maintaining them and making the parts as required. I am sure they could still be reliable, but there's simply no incentive and likely no money to fix issues when they're off for scrap. Whether that's down to GTR or the DfT I don't know. I realise in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter, but it's what it is.

 

[Bald Rick]

Agreed re the 313s being past it. I can just remember them coming into service, and sliding doors were practically space age. I’d have been about 5. And now I’ve been working on the railway over quarter of a century...

When they are in and the drivers (and passengers!) are used to them, they will transform performance on the GN inners, much 700s have on Thameslink. Leaf fall will become irrelevant, as will snow in winter. Station delays due to boarding will practically disappear. Recovery from minor delay will be much better.

 

[387star]

The timetable is similar (but in a different way) in the peak on the MML, even a 2 minute delay can cause ripples back for quite a while, particularly on the down fast in the evening. I agree that the impact of a cancellation is more painful on the GN, and there’s do still seem to be issues finding drivers at Finsbury Park for example.

What I will say is that I have spent much time observing the TL core in recent weeks now that the timetable has settled down, drivers are trained etc. When there is a train out of sequence, or a small delay such that a small queue builds up, it is remarkable how quickly trains pump through the core - headways usually average 2 1/2 minutes (often shorter) for 20-30 minutes until the timetable is recovered. This is without ATO of course; when that is in 2 minute headways (45 second station dwell, 75 second platform reoccupation) will be a regular occurrence.

Notwithstanding Cap’n Deltic’s view, it is definitely the case that longer fixed formation trains are at a disadvantage in therms of comparing MTINs. A 12 car 377 does 3 times as much mileage for the MTIN calls as a 12 car 700. So a door fault, say, on a 12 car 377 will have 1/3rd the effect on the MTIN as on a 700.

However it is also true to say that the 700 is effectively 2 x single ended units in multiple, but not numbered or recorded as such, and therefore there is redundancy built in for if one half ‘fails’. This has happened to me once or twice, and no delay has occurred. Electostars in particular are reknowned for transferring faults from one unit to another.

Siemens will, of course, get reliability up. It’s costing them cash now, and it must be painful.

Which is silly when an increasing number of drivers sign the whole route eg Horsham to Peterborough yet have just two jobs going all the way to say Peterborough and can count on their fingers the numbers of times they have been to Peterborough
Relieving must delay many a train.
Finsbury Park is a horrible place to be at too with incessant construction noise and poor air quality in the subway

 

[jon0844]

Won't drivers soon be able to book on at Finsbury Park and avoid having to go into King's Cross and back out? I heard they can book on from their phone or something? Apologies if I'm wrong on this, or it's already happening - it's just something I was told.

 

[bramling]

Won't drivers soon be able to book on at Finsbury Park and avoid having to go into King's Cross and back out? I heard they can book on from their phone or something? Apologies if I'm wrong on this, or it's already happening - it's just something I was told.

Booking on without physically seeing a supervisor / manager is still frowned upon. It’s one way of ensuring drivers aren’t under the influence.

 

[gm671]

Deleted

 

[Failed Unit]

717s really should help a lot. With faster shutdowns and turnarounds, faster acceleration and wider doors, they should be able to recover from the odd little delay a lot better. That does of course rely on them being able to open the doors quickly and not presenting problems like the 700s. I am about to be accused of being an apologist again, but I really do think the 717s will make a huge difference.

I have asked a few times but never had a response. How will the 717s speed up turnarounds? The 313s don’t have computers to restart. Turn the t-key and go. Will the 717s really be quicker to turn around?

I have had long waits at WGC for the x02 and x32 services while they get prepped. The biggest wait for the 313s is the driver walking down the platform.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have asked a few times but never had a response. How will the 717s speed up turnarounds? The 313s don’t have computers to restart. Turn the t-key and go. Will the 717s really be quicker to turn around?

I have had long waits at WGC for the x02 and x32 services while they get prepped. The biggest wait for the 313s is the driver walking down the platform.

You’ve answered your own question. The driver can walk through the 717s without hindrance of doors etc. Introducing the 700s on the MML knocked 2 minutes off the turnaround time off the St Albans terminators purely for that reason.

 

[Failed Unit]

You’ve answered your own question. The driver can walk through the 717s without hindrance of doors etc. Introducing the 700s on the MML knocked 2 minutes off the turnaround time off the St Albans terminators purely for that reason.

Fair enough. The problems I see at WGC could be because they are coming from the carriage sidings (to vacate the platform for an Cambridge bound service)

They sometimes take a few minutes before they open the doors once they have arrived at the platforms. So am 0830 arrival on platform can be 0835 when the doors open.

 

[sefton]

Or the penny has finally dropped that nobody is listening to their constant whining about something so trivial.

With views like that you seem ideally qualified for a job for in GTR's customer communication team.

But aside from the dreadful trains and back to the service, it is still incredibly fragile and continues to fall over if anyone breathes too hard.

 

[jon0844]

A lot of problems recently have been down to ongoing issues with the infrastructure. Point failures, signalling issues, loss of power, track circuit failures..

I hope the weekend (Sunday) shut downs between Alexandra Palace and Stevenage can fix some of these things. Issues with 700s and 313s don't help, and there are too many issues that cause problems now there are 4tph to Moorgate from WGC. If the timings go out, the trains block the platforms and delay the Cambridge service. A late shunt will invariably delay the next Moorgate train, and everything goes out of sync.

Saturday has a shocking service but there is a real risk that once there are the extra Moorgate services and 2tph Cambridge stoppers, the Saturday will be as risky as a weekday in terms of opportunities for delay.

 

[OwenB]

A lot of problems recently have been down to ongoing issues with the infrastructure. Point failures, signalling issues, loss of power, track circuit failures..

I hope the weekend (Sunday) shut downs between Alexandra Palace and Stevenage can fix some of these things. Issues with 700s and 313s don't help, and there are too many issues that cause problems now there are 4tph to Moorgate from WGC. If the timings go out, the trains block the platforms and delay the Cambridge service. A late shunt will invariably delay the next Moorgate train, and everything goes out of sync.

Saturday has a shocking service but there is a real risk that once there are the extra Moorgate services and 2tph Cambridge stoppers, the Saturday will be as risky as a weekday in terms of opportunities for delay.

Famous last words? Points failure at WGC this morning, by the looks of it.

 

[Failed Unit]

Famous last words? Points failure at WGC this morning, by the looks of it.

Correct - GTR still on their favourite drug of we must skip stops. It is the only tool we have.

Some services today.

0654 WGC - Moorgate Cancelled.
0709 WGC - Moorgate terminates at Alexander palace
0724 WGC - Moorgate, skipping Hatfield, Welham Green, Brookmans Park and New Barnet. Departure 0753.

Currently losing more time. Following 0732 Wgc - London KX and 0752 WGC - London.

Nearly empty and skipping stations that have not had a service to London for over 1 hour. But stopping at Harringey and Hornsey that have.

Will never understand why GTR insist they must skip stops even when someone like me can see the train isn’t going to recover time.

** In typical GTR style they decide to divert the service to kings cross when we get to Finsbury Park. Which basically sums up how inept GTR are. No interest in getting customers from A-B. Finsbury Park extremely overcrowded. Had they told passengers at WGC and potters bar would have got the 0752 WGC - London service. They didn’t even tell the driver so at stations south of Alexander palace the passengers were given conflicting information.

Yes like many issue the initial fault was not GTRs. But this was compounded by GTRs poor communication and inability to recover services.

 

[47421]

@ Mr Bald Rick: "This is without ATO of course; when that is in 2 minute headways (45 second station dwell, 75 second platform reoccupation) will be a regular occurrence."

What is your best estimate of when ATO will be standard operating procedure?

 

[jon0844]

I don't know what happened this morning (besides a points failure causing a Moorgate train to block a platform at WGC, which causes chaos) but last week some trains diverted into King's Cross because the driver of one diagram didn't have the route knowledge to Moorgate. Perhaps because of the delay, a spare driver took over at Finsbury Park and it was a similar case this morning? Or maybe it was just a congestion issue in the hole?

This is what I said above - everything is so tight that there's simply no recovery time. Of course in such situations, if you're starting from WGC then just get on a train and join the queue.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't know what happened this morning (besides a points failure causing a Moorgate train to block a platform at WGC, which causes chaos) but last week some trains diverted into King's Cross because the driver of one diagram didn't have the route knowledge to Moorgate. Perhaps because of the delay, a spare driver took over at Finsbury Park and it was a similar case this morning? Or maybe it was just a congestion issue in the hole?

This is what I said above - everything is so tight that there's simply no recovery time. Of course in such situations, if you're starting from WGC then just get on a train and join the queue.

It is. But why do they insist on skipping stops when they lose more time but annoy passengers on the platforms.

A Cambridge- Three bridges service also did this morning. Non-stop Cambridge to Finsbury Park. Time recovered 0 minutes.

GTR need to focus on moving passengers not empty trains.

 

[philjo]

It is. But why do they insist on skipping stops when they lose more time but annoy passengers on the platforms.

A Cambridge- Three bridges service also did this morning. Non-stop Cambridge to Finsbury Park. Time recovered 0 minutes.

GTR need to focus on moving passengers not empty trains.

The incoming arrival at Cambridge was 41 minutes late. At least we made it to Cambridge as I was expecting that train to be turned round at Royston!
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/X52656/2019/02/18/advanced

Though it didn't help that due to a train fault the 0810 Cambridge to Kings Cross (ex-Kings Lynn service) which calls at Royston and Letchworth was only 4 coaches this morning.

 

[jon0844]

I can only assume there's a presumption that some running fast services will go on the fast lines and not hold other trains up (or catch up and get stuck behind other trains). With the transition to York for signalling, there have been many issues with odd pathing of trains of late. I am not automatically siding with GTR here, but control may be asking for things to happen that don't get actioned. This is one big problem with the changes to control from a year or two ago, where everyone was in the same place. If control needed something done, they were sat next to those who made it all work. Now you've got Three Bridges talking to someone in York.

In theory, skip stopping on the Moorgate trains makes perfect sense if there's 4tph and you are desperate to get trains back into Moorgate to deal with mounting crowds. It's useless if the signaller sends the WGC to FPK non-stop train behind the next all-station stopper.