Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[bramling]

Network Rail timetable planning department according to Grayling?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...nt_data/file/712161/sos-letter-to-mps-gtr.pdf

So what were the DFT doing over the last few months and years? Looking up at the sky admiring the clouds, or monitoring their partners delivering the programme? The buck stops with the DFT - it’s their project.

In any case, Network Rail is effectively a government body anyway, so a little too close to Grayling for comfort, although to be fair to him this whole shambles goes back to long before Grayling ‘s tenure.

 

[bramling]

If logistically it had to be everything or nothing then the only logical move IMO was to defer the introduction for 6 months. Yes, it would have looked bad (all those years, and still delayed) but considerably less bad than what happened.

Now it's obviously a case of when will things be fixed? How long until there are enough drivers route trained so there can be more resilience? Half term does mean a lot fewer passengers, but next week? Three weeks may be nothing in terms of how long is needed, but passengers will think three weeks is ample to fix things.

The half term week should have given enough respite to plan some form of deliverable service from next week, even if massively scaled down. Anything is better than the current sheer meltdown where people enter into a lottery as to how long their journey will take or whether they’ll be able to get home.

I’m glad I’m on leave, although it annoys me as I had a couple of local journeys I would have liked to make this week. I dare not risk taking the train as I don’t have spare time to risk a quick trip to Welwyn and back taking all day. Car it is then!

 

[jayah]

The thameslink fast services are 'fast trains' so they go on the fast lines so your statement:
"swerving trains this way and that or stopping on the fast lines at all shacks"is actually wrong. I assume that your experience on TL services is limited as your "all shacks" actually boils down to:

West Hampstead Thameslink - a major interchange station
St Albans City - the busiest TL station on the MML and the second busiest station outside the zones and within 30 miles of London
Harpenden - a major commuter railhead​

In fact all three of those stations have as large passenger numbers as Bedford, and much larger than Wellingborough and Kettering, so hardly 'shacks'. All of the other stations between Kentish Town and Luton have fenced-off platforms on the fast lines so no trains can stop there.

The MML operation is nothing unusual, - on most main routes away from a city there is a hierachy of train service patterns where all but the slowest all-station stoppers skip all/most of the stations on the first part of their journeys and then often turn into providers of local services. Consider:
The WCML to MK. LNW trains use the fasts and slows swapping at Ledburn & Hanslope
The GWML as far as Didcot (until TFL takes almost exclusive use of the reliefs)
The SWML (which is a SFFS configuration) has many swaps as far out as Basingstoke
The GEML has had swaps at Stratford, Ilford and Gidea Park/Harold Wood (until recently when TfL took over the Electric lines)​

There are a few exceptions on some inter-city services like the WCML and ECML where cities at both ends of the journeys are large enough to have their own local hierachy of slows/semi-fasts etc..
See the Chief Planner's post above. He/(she?) has more knowledge than me of the intricacies of F-S line inter-ops. My comments are based on over 25 years of travel on Thameslink mainly off-peak but sometimes in the thick of it.
Of course anything can go wrong sometimes but the MML setup works pretty well most of the time for all. The alternative is to have a dedicated fast line to the outer reaches of the MML. It is rarely viable, let alone affordable for such an expensive project. Amazingly, there is to be an exclusive line for fast trains to the East Midlands but it will take a few years to build, - oh by the way, it's called HS2 phase 2!

The MML operation is very different because the trains serve different London termini. You have lots of trains crossing the formation on the level and a few miles later crossing back again because the core is only accessed from the SL. I am not suggesting anything as radical as FL for MML only but these endless moves where trains cross everywhere 2-3 minutes in front of each other on a 100mph route simply isn't robust in the real world.

St Albans is roughly similar to somewhere like Watford or Slough and you would not block the FL for all these stopping trains, even if there is a footfall in the millions which I don't doubt. Then to compound matters, FL calls at places like Leagrave and Flitwick. It isn't disciplined and isn't designed for solid, reliable high levels of performance, which apparently TL needs for the core to work? We don't actually know how well or not the new timetable works yet because so far about a third of it gets cancelled each day.

The timetable needs to be designed for the infrastructure you have not the infrastructure you want and sadly there are precious few examples of high frequency mixed timetables into London that actually do work.

Mindsets need to change as much as the timetables do.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

So what were the DFT doing over the last few months and years? Looking up at the sky admiring the clouds, or monitoring their partners delivering the programme? The buck stops with the DFT - it’s their project.

In any case, Network Rail is effectively a government body anyway, so a little too close to Grayling for comfort, although to be fair to him this whole shambles goes back to long before Grayling ‘s tenure.

As DfT effectively both "sponsor" NR and "manage" the Franchise - as a delivery contract , it might be a bit tricky to bat it off. Just on the London news that GTR were unable to comment after a pretty devestating Sim Harries report. Worse this evening on TLK Midland , with Bedford down to something like 2 tph .

Still - he can pass the buck onto Manchester and Leeds for franchise management issues. (Plus NR)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The MML operation is very different because the trains serve different London termini. You have lots of trains crossing the formation on the level and a few miles later crossing back again because the core is only accessed from the SL. I am not suggesting anything as radical as FL for MML only but these endless moves where trains cross everywhere 2-3 minutes in front of each other on a 100mph route simply isn't robust in the real world.

St Albans is roughly similar to somewhere like Watford or Slough and you would not block the FL for all these stopping trains, even if there is a footfall in the millions which I don't doubt. Then to compound matters, FL calls at places like Leagrave and Flitwick. It isn't disciplined and isn't designed for solid, reliable high levels of performance, which apparently TL needs for the core to work? We don't actually know how well or not the new timetable works yet because so far about a third of it gets cancelled each day.

The timetable needs to be designed for the infrastructure you have not the infrastructure you want and sadly there are precious few examples of high frequency mixed timetables into London that actually do work.

Mindsets need to change as much as the timetables do.

The timetable needs to be designed for the infrastructure you have not the infrastructure you want and sadly there are precious few examples of high frequency mixed timetables into London that actually do work.

Did you not understand the comments I made above about the development of the Thameslink TT over several generations of planning.?

Where do you get the idea of trains crossing in front of each other ever 2/3 mins ....more like every 8 to 15 , and not all day. In accordance with the planning rules and the signalling. This is not a Simsig Railway or a game of Space Invadors.

There is - (unlike so many - "my idea for a train service comment on here) - a commercial specification for a timetable. May not always be perfect , but trust me - there is one.

 

[fusionblue]

As i see it, just south of Blackfriars alone, the project has been a complete failure from the infrastructure perspective up.

The marketing materials going back years has talked about untangling tracks towards London. Yet now Phase 1 has started we have seen the flat crossing between Elephant and DMK, Nunhead and Crofton Park, Lewisham itself, remain unchanged while a brand new one crossing NKE has been introduced. One slow moving, or broken down, train blocks everything to and from Cannon Street screwing up most of SE London. You can't say you're untangling things then only focus on just one small stretch of track while adding new complexities elsewhere - this should have been the absolute focus of the entire project with everything built around this. With this mindset trains to Rainham would never have happened.

The same marketing materials proclaim longer trains - phase 1 launches and neither happens on the sevenoaks or sutton loops. Herne Hill was claimed to be the reason for sutton, but as usual, sevenoaks was never given a reason and they often pretend the line doesnt exist (a problem going back to the FCC era).

Peak extras was also removed quietly in favour of giving a constant "clockface" timetable, meaning morning peak went from 6 to 4.

The project should have focussed on improving everything on the existing routes first (wheelchair accessibility on the 700s is useless if stations like Catford or Shortlands have steep stairs to the platforms still, for instance) before expanding outwards to new routes - but the constant focus on the core and Bedford/Brighton route and "we have lots more trains lets go everywhere" has resulted in this mishmash of differing requirements to different places.

Fix what you have first before you go elsewhere.

 

[bramling]

The timetable needs to be designed for the infrastructure you have not the infrastructure you want and sadly there are precious few examples of high frequency mixed timetables into London that actually do work.

Did you not understand the comments I made above about the development of the Thameslink TT over several generations of planning.?

Where do you get the idea of trains crossing in front of each other ever 2/3 mins ....more like every 8 to 15 , and not all day. In accordance with the planning rules and the signalling. This is not a Simsig Railway or a game of Space Invadors.

There is - (unlike so many - "my idea for a train service comment on here) - a commercial specification for a timetable. May not always be perfect , but trust me - there is one.

I don’t claim to be fully up to date with the Midland today, thankfully it was nearly last century when I used Thameslink daily, however I presume the point the OP was making was that crossing movements are scheduled with as little as 3 minutes leeway either side before conflicting with another service. This is certainly what we see on the GN - both before and after the May timetable change.

The problem on GN is that once the path is missed there’s a high chance of heavy reactionary delays, especially if a fast service then ends up stuck behind a slower one. On the Midland I presume the main risk of delay is waiting to get across a junction (with stuff blocking back behind or perhaps in both directions?) as there’s far less variation in stopping pattern, especially off-peak.

From the 90s I can remember it was very common on an up fast service to end up waiting at signals at Radlett, and again at Kentish Town. Is this still common? Does the Midland still have single-lead crossovers at key locations like Radlett?

In my view the fundamental problem is the infrastructure is very fragile - not necessarily in terms of reliability (south of the river seems worse in that regard) but in terms of flexibility to handle performance when trains have missed their path. There simple aren’t enough tracks to give an adequate level of flexibility. This is certainly the case on GN in places like Hitchin, the Cambridge branch, etc. Unfortunately Thameslink introduces a much greater likelihood of trains being out of path. This wouldn’t be a problem if all stopping patterns were the same - trains could simply follow each other and be sorted out by crew relief or turning short (like happens on something like the Northern Line). But with vastly different stopping patterns delays simply snowball and then become hard to recover, leading to a very erratic service for places with only 2tph.

To make it all work I suspect there would need to be massive investment in new infrastructure. London Bridge is only really the railway catching up to where it should have been in the late 80s when Thameslink first started! Even the infrastructure work which has happened has had its gloss taken away by being used in ways which weren’t originally envisaged - eg the Sutton services conflicting at Blackfriars, or the Rainham flirtation.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The problem on GN os that once the path is missed there’s a high chance of heavy reactionary delays, especially is a fast service then ends up stuck behind a slower one. On the Midland I presume the main risk of delay is waiting to get across a junction, as there’s far less variation in stopping pattern, especially off-peak.

From the 90s I can remember it was very common on an up fast service to end up waiting at signals at Radlett, and again at Kentish Town. Is this still common? Does the Midland still have single-lead crossovers at key locations like Radlett?

Any junction risk - at places like Radlett and Harpendon usually work in the favour of what is now EMT , in all my years on the route , I can hardly think of an up I/C service getting brought to a stand on the up fast at Radlett , (unless it was a major incident) , a double yellow check perhaps ...TL services , even now go slow to fast at Radlett Jn on the up and down fast to slow - (in the latter case , cleverly timed to go ahead of a down slow service for St Albans and Luton) , West Hampstead - Finchley Road on the up is again cleverly timed so that an up fast Thameslink goes over to the slows , behind a northbound stopping service - usually when the latter is in a platform. The principle of 3x7 applies - 7 mins to each crossing move , but in reality there is a minute spare there for differential manual driving etc.

Back in the past - there was considertion of a new junction south of Radlett and before Crickewood , tricky to manage engineering wise due to track curvature etc ,and probably of limited use due to the "flow" of trains which actually works quite well , - whoever though of Radlett Junction back in the 1970's , did a good move.

Hope they are enjoying their retirement. As I said before - slightly higher speeds over those essentially single leads , would be a bonus. Repeater banners have helped the slower trains no end (you get one on the southbound slow at Radlett , giving non stop trains making the move , a bit more confidence ! ..)

 

[Taunton]

Grayling's public pronouncements (BBC etc, and presumably to MPs representing all those inconvenienced) seem to dominate on a chewing-out for Newtork Rail. But the key problem has been the failure to train drivers in new routes. That is wholly a GTR problem. Now I would always have thought that Sir Peter Hendy, NR Chair, would have corrected Grayling in double-quick time, but alas he too appears to have gone to earth.

My hunch is the GTR directed-operation from the DfT, and NR overseen from DfT, have led to a turf war within the Department, and the GTR team (and Horton) have somehow won and the NR team (and Sir Peter) have somehow lost. Because it seems that dunderhead Grayling hasn't been told it's principally an operational issue. I also suspect that the overarching reason WHY the driver training has not been completed is parsimony from the DfT in making funds available in time to do it - which among other things would have required additional recruiting from back earlier in the project. It wouldn't have been rocket science to work out the requirement, but may have been to get the funds made available, for adequate mainstream drivers, and adequate spares. It's never been an issue on any significant service change, such as electrification cutovers, before. They seem to have relied far too much on overtime. In any other business training is done in normal working time, you hardly ever all have to come in on Saturday on overtime to do it. I'll bet the DfT don't do it for their own staff training.

A further point is trains presenting late at the Core and messing things up. WHY are trains presenting late? To an extent this is described as late starts from the origin. WHY is that happening? There must be roomfulls of Delay Attribution accountants working full time on all of this, but why are things getting out of kilter on the inward journey, especially without the full timetable being run?

 

[GordonT]

An example of the human cost arising from the disaster that is the current TL/GN service performance.
https://twitter.com/GNRailUK/status/1001891061776683013

 

[Failed Unit]

An example of the human cost arising from the disaster that is the current TL/GN service performance.
https://twitter.com/GNRailUK/status/1001891061776683013

I bet he isn’t the only one when you look back at the Southern Crisis as well. I know you can say get an earlier train but considering it could also be cancelled that isnt the best cause of action. I am now leaving 1 hour earlier than I used to just to get in on time.

 

[philjo]

I see VTEC have operated an 0450 Peterborough to Kings cross service today calling at Biggleswade, Hitchin, Stevenage. I heard from someone on this train they were told by staff that this service was to ensure that VTEC train crews could get to work on time!
Is is the 1st time VTEC have had a scheduled call at Hitchin?

 

[Stampy]

Dare I trust the trains to get me from PBO to King's Cross and back next Thursday??

Need to be in Leicester Square for a show that starts at 7pm, and finishes about 9:30-10:00pm ......

 

[Bishopstone]

GTR are telling angry Twitterers that they’ll have everything sorted ‘in a month’.

Is it likely that four weeks can deliver, if not complete reliability, then at least reversion to the sort of numbers (cancellation and delay) we saw prior to the timetable change?

Or do I hear the tinkling of a can being kicked down the road?

 

[Failed Unit]

Network Rail timetable planning department according to Grayling?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...nt_data/file/712161/sos-letter-to-mps-gtr.pdf

I don’t get this. Fair enough at Northern with late running electrification. But GTR? All infrastructure done in time? Timetable maybe not down to the minute but in principle about 1 year old. Great Northern has less trains than previously. Something doesn’t smell right here. Shame network rail are not allowed to fight back and give their side of the story.

 

[bramling]

Grayling's public pronouncements (BBC etc, and presumably to MPs representing all those inconvenienced) seem to dominate on a chewing-out for Newtork Rail. But the key problem has been the failure to train drivers in new routes. That is wholly a GTR problem. Now I would always have thought that Sir Peter Hendy, NR Chair, would have corrected Grayling in double-quick time, but alas he too appears to have gone to earth.

My hunch is the GTR directed-operation from the DfT, and NR overseen from DfT, have led to a turf war within the Department, and the GTR team (and Horton) have somehow won and the NR team (and Sir Peter) have somehow lost. Because it seems that dunderhead Grayling hasn't been told it's principally an operational issue. I also suspect that the overarching reason WHY the driver training has not been completed is parsimony from the DfT in making funds available in time to do it - which among other things would have required additional recruiting from back earlier in the project. It wouldn't have been rocket science to work out the requirement, but may have been to get the funds made available, for adequate mainstream drivers, and adequate spares. It's never been an issue on any significant service change, such as electrification cutovers, before. They seem to have relied far too much on overtime. In any other business training is done in normal working time, you hardly ever all have to come in on Saturday on overtime to do it. I'll bet the DfT don't do it for their own staff training.

A further point is trains presenting late at the Core and messing things up. WHY are trains presenting late? To an extent this is described as late starts from the origin. WHY is that happening? There must be roomfulls of Delay Attribution accountants working full time on all of this, but why are things getting out of kilter on the inward journey, especially without the full timetable being run?

I may be proved wrong, however I can’t envisage Hendy coming out too loudly against the DFT - as that would be biting off the hand which feeds and all that. Hendy is very much the politician, and no doubt he will be thinking of that big fat pay packet. If keeping quiet and riding the storm is what has to be done then it will be, no matter how sickly the feeling. I could be wrong though, we’ll see. Horton seems to be hiding away, and Grayling just seems his normal clueless self.

Just took the dogs for a walk which happened to be alongside the GN for half an hour. Very peaceful apart from the odd passing VTEC service!

 

[jon0844]

An example of the human cost arising from the disaster that is the current TL/GN service performance.
https://twitter.com/GNRailUK/status/1001891061776683013

I see the media have contacted him (bit odd that the account seems to be from the dad one minute, the son the next) but no story published as yet. I assume they're checking out the details and possibly wanting to get a picture, real name etc.

 

[abn444]

Dare I trust the trains to get me from PBO to King's Cross and back next Thursday??

Need to be in Leicester Square for a show that starts at 7pm, and finishes about 9:30-10:00pm ......

If you get a VTEC train then you should be ok as long as there aren't any problems specific to that line

 

[MikeWM]

I don’t get this. Fair enough at Northern with late running electrification. But GTR? All infrastructure done in time? Timetable maybe not down to the minute but in principle about 1 year old. Great Northern has less trains than previously. Something doesn’t smell right here. Shame network rail are not allowed to fight back and give their side of the story.

I suspect pure politics, unfortunately. The GTR mega-franchise was executed by this government, and 'Railplan2020' is the lynchpin of the whole thing. NR on the other hand would most likely be being privatised right now if the general election had gone the way it was expected to go. So trying to blame NR over GTR seems a no-brainer if those are the only options available.

However, it is unlikely to work in the way they hope, because people will naturally blame the people who run the trains, staff the stations and take their money, whether fairly or unfairly, and that is GTR. In this particular case, that works out ok as this is almost entirely GTRs fault, as far as I can tell.

 

[Failed Unit]

I see the media have contacted him (bit odd that the account seems to be from the dad one minute, the son the next) but no story published as yet. I assume they're checking out the details and possibly wanting to get a picture, real name etc.

The repeated abuse now reduces the sympathy (at least from me)

 

[MikeWM]

I don't think this situation can last much longer. The
media and many relevant MPs (most of them Tory) seem to have realised today - rather belatedly - something rather bad is going on. And unlike Southern, this one appears easier to solve temporarily.

Half term and Parliament being on holiday may give GTR until next week, if they're lucky, but after that I suspect that something is going to give.

 

[jon0844]

The repeated abuse now reduces the sympathy (at least from me)

The account is also brand new. Nothing wrong with creating an account to send a Tweet, but it is odd that the dad says he's using his son's account who hasn't posted anything before. Unless I misread something. I thought I also read another post saying his 10 year old son could do a better job. Maybe another son, or else that's a very young apprentice.

Perhaps I'm reading into things a bit much, but with all the swearing and abuse, something didn't seem right. However bad the situation, you don't resort to such abuse.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

What's going on ? I thought criticism of Thameslink wasn't allowed on here ?

I mean it was only a 42 minute wait and I suppose it wasn't as bad as before as there were only two fasts in that time instead of the usual five for the selfish burghers of StA and beyond.
Pity the poor GN folk more though as they scurry back and forth between StP sewer level and KX like headless chickens not knowing where their next train will be..

 

[NorthKent1989]

As i see it, just south of Blackfriars alone, the project has been a complete failure from the infrastructure perspective up.

The marketing materials going back years has talked about untangling tracks towards London. Yet now Phase 1 has started we have seen the flat crossing between Elephant and DMK, Nunhead and Crofton Park, Lewisham itself, remain unchanged while a brand new one crossing NKE has been introduced. One slow moving, or broken down, train blocks everything to and from Cannon Street screwing up most of SE London. You can't say you're untangling things then only focus on just one small stretch of track while adding new complexities elsewhere - this should have been the absolute focus of the entire project with everything built around this. With this mindset trains to Rainham would never have happened.

The same marketing materials proclaim longer trains - phase 1 launches and neither happens on the sevenoaks or sutton loops. Herne Hill was claimed to be the reason for sutton, but as usual, sevenoaks was never given a reason and they often pretend the line doesnt exist (a problem going back to the FCC era).

Peak extras was also removed quietly in favour of giving a constant "clockface" timetable, meaning morning peak went from 6 to 4.

The project should have focussed on improving everything on the existing routes first (wheelchair accessibility on the 700s is useless if stations like Catford or Shortlands have steep stairs to the platforms still, for instance) before expanding outwards to new routes - but the constant focus on the core and Bedford/Brighton route and "we have lots more trains lets go everywhere" has resulted in this mishmash of differing requirements to different places.

Fix what you have first before you go elsewhere.

Exactly, Thameslink South is a mess on the map.

In truth all the SE routes should be routed into Elephant and Castle and one of the Sydenham metro routes should’ve simply been extended into the core since they couldn’t add extra routes through windmill junction then just have GTR take over the Coulsdon Town service via Sydenham up to Luton, it’s that simple

And regarding the Rainham service I’ve tried to explain this to people on here who seem to think that Medway should be grateful for this service because of the strange mantra popping up around here “journey opportunities “ all it takes is one delay from a Cannon Street mainline or the Rainham service and the SE Network will be delayed

 

[Downthelane]

Pity the poor GN folk more though as they scurry back and forth between StP sewer level and KX like headless chickens not knowing where their next train will be..

The preference is to use Finsbury Park and create a Clapham Junction of North London.

Using KGX and StP clearly to be avoided if you need to travel between to find a service.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't think this situation can last much longer. The
media and many relevant MPs (most of them Tory) seem to have realised today - rather belatedly - something rather bad is going on. And unlike Southern, this one appears easier to solve temporarily.

Half term and Parliament being on holiday may give GTR until next week, if they're lucky, but after that I suspect that something is going to give.

I hope not but it does seem Horton and GTR are untouchable.

Weekly meetings with network rail? What will that achieve if they haven’t got enough drivers? Unless they know that once they run the full timetable it will not work anyway. As yet they haven’t ever ran the full peak to test how the bottle necks at Finsbury Park, WGC and the viaduct cope.

Haven’t really tested train loading. Most people get on the first one heading in the right direction in case it is the last one.

This will go on. We haven’t had a points failure at New Barnet yet. Tonight demonstrates the can handle the closure of the northern city line. (No real massive problems) less convinced at the moment a failed unit at st Pancras. Considering how Finsbury Park gets blocked up at the moment with missing drivers.

All the above can’t be network rail. (Well apart from Welwyn north. They should never have allowed more trains to stop there and to GTR to do one)

 

[Failed Unit]

The preference is to use Finsbury Park and create a Clapham Junction of North London.

Using KGX and StP clearly to be avoided if you need to travel between to find a service.

I am not sure Finsbury Park could cope if everyone did that. It frequently closes the underground for congestion now. Unless the improve connectivity between platforms (Bridge at the north end?) I think it could get dangerously overcrowded.

 

[choochoochoo]

Many, many, many cancellations tomorrow on TL, as of 00:32, 30/05/2018:

Spoiler

Cancelled: 1C02 05:33 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 1C00 04:57 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 1C93 22:54 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 9S69 21:54 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 9J57 18:24 from Peterborough.

Cancelled: 9W21 23:45 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9J57 18:24 from Peterborough.

Cancelled: 9S69 21:54 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 1T71 22:46 from Ely.

Cancelled: 1T18 09:42 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 1T24 11:12 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 1T31 12:47 from Ely.

Cancelled: 2B24 08:05 from Moorgate.

Cancelled: 1T14 08:42 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 1T18 09:42 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 1T24 11:12 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 1T31 12:47 from Ely.

Cancelled: 2B24 17:40 from Moorgate.

Cancelled: 1T71 22:46 from Ely.

Cancelled: 1T06 06:42 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 1T01 04:43 from Kings Lynn.

Cancelled: 1T13 07:42 from Kings Lynn.

Cancelled: 2C00 06:21 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 2C08 08:21 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 2C01 04:47 from Letchworth Garden City.

Cancelled: 2C27 10:44 from Cambridge North.

Cancelled: 2C30 13:51 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 2C37 13:27 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 2C22 11:51 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 2C31 11:44 from Cambridge North.

Cancelled: 2C29 11:27 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 2C18 10:51 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 2C10 08:51 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 2C17 08:25 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 9R11 08:32 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9J21 09:26 from Peterborough.

Cancelled: 9Y27 11:46 from London Blackfriars.

Cancelled: 9J36 12:23 from Horsham.

Cancelled: 9Y32 13:22 from Sevenoaks.

Cancelled: 9R38 14:03 from Gatwick Airport.

Cancelled: 9P40 14:28 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9T49 16:18 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9P19 09:16 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9T55 17:46 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9T35 12:49 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9R94 17:03 from Gatwick Airport.

Cancelled: 9P29 11:48 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9R21 11:05 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9T19 08:46 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9R80 06:04 from Horsham.

Cancelled: 9T86 15:26 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9R44 15:33 from Gatwick Airport.

Cancelled: 9R50 16:57 from Gatwick Airport.

Cancelled: 9P15 08:16 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9R09 08:01 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9P16 08:30 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9R24 10:33 from Gatwick Airport.

Cancelled: 9P31 12:18 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9P32 12:28 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9P33 12:48 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9T35 12:49 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9P38 13:58 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9R72 15:27 from Gatwick Airport.

Cancelled: 2C46 17:51 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 2C55 17:44 from Cambridge North.

Cancelled: 2C42 16:51 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 2C41 14:27 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 2C38 15:51 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 2C39 13:44 from Cambridge North.

Cancelled: 2C47 15:44 from Cambridge North.

Cancelled: 2C64 22:21 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 2C59 18:50 from Cambridge North.

Cancelled: 2C63 19:48 from Cambridge North.

Cancelled: 2C69 21:27 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 2C68 23:24 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 2C75 22:44 from Cambridge North.

Cancelled: 2C73 22:27 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 2C64 22:21 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 2C75 22:44 from Cambridge North.

Cancelled: 2C69 21:27 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 2C68 23:24 from London Kings Cross.

Cancelled: 2C63 19:48 from Cambridge North.

Cancelled: 2C59 18:50 from Cambridge North.

Cancelled: 9V23 07:36 from St Albans City.

Cancelled: 9O40 13:19 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9O39 11:51 from St Albans City.

Cancelled: 9J29 11:23 from Peterborough.

Cancelled: 9J30 10:55 from Horsham.

Cancelled: 9V24 09:16 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9J14 07:13 from Gatwick Airport.

Cancelled: 2T09 07:15 from Ely.

Cancelled: 2F72 13:10 from Moorgate.

Cancelled: 2J51 09:28 from Stevenage.

Cancelled: 2T07 06:45 from Ely.

Cancelled: 9P81 07:01 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9J40 13:25 from Horsham.

Cancelled: 9T26 11:58 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9J25 10:24 from Peterborough.

Cancelled: 9T99 10:22 from London Bridge.

Cancelled: 9P22 09:58 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9L92 09:21 from East Grinstead.

Cancelled: 9J13 07:24 from Peterborough.

Cancelled: 9L87 07:04 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9S09 06:54 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 9R84 07:04 from Horsham.

Cancelled: 9J33 12:24 from Peterborough.

Cancelled: 9O36 12:19 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9Y25 11:16 from London Blackfriars.

Cancelled: 9S24 11:08 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9O35 10:52 from St Albans City.

Cancelled: 9Y18 09:52 from Sevenoaks.

Cancelled: 9T21 09:16 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9Y11 07:46 from London Blackfriars.

Cancelled: 9Y04 06:22 from Sevenoaks.

Cancelled: 9P60 19:28 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9P55 18:16 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9Y49 17:16 from London Blackfriars.

Cancelled: 9Y42 15:52 from Sevenoaks.

Cancelled: 9P26 10:58 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9P13 07:46 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9S21 09:54 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 9V31 09:37 from St Albans City.

Cancelled: 9R13 09:02 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9T91 08:22 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9O14 06:49 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9Y04 06:22 from Sevenoaks.

Cancelled: 9N84 05:52 from Littlehampton.

Cancelled: 9T02 05:52 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9T80 05:26 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 2K22 07:08 from Welwyn Garden City.

Cancelled: 2K70 12:09 from Welwyn Garden City.

Cancelled: 2V53 10:50 from Moorgate.

Cancelled: 2V05 06:17 from Moorgate.

Cancelled: 9P32 12:28 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9J59 18:52 from Peterborough.

Cancelled: 9O60 18:19 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9J58 17:55 from Horsham.

Cancelled: 9P43 15:18 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9P40 14:28 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9J39 13:54 from Peterborough.

Cancelled: 9P35 13:18 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9J38 12:55 from Horsham.

Cancelled: 9P29 11:48 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9R24 10:33 from Gatwick Airport.

Cancelled: 9K56 18:33 from Orpington.

Cancelled: 9K49 17:06 from West Hampstead Thameslink.

Cancelled: 9O59 16:52 from St Albans City.

Cancelled: 9T41 14:19 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9T08 07:18 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9O38 12:49 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9T35 12:49 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9O37 11:22 from St Albans City.

Cancelled: 9V28 10:16 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9T15 07:48 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9R04 05:27 from Three Bridges.

Cancelled: 9O13 05:51 from Kentish Town.

Cancelled: 9Y92 05:52 from Sevenoaks.

Cancelled: 9Y09 07:16 from London Blackfriars.

Cancelled: 9V16 07:16 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9Y16 09:22 from Sevenoaks.

Cancelled: 9O31 09:51 from St Albans City.

Cancelled: 9O32 11:19 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9T28 12:26 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9S00 05:06 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9T05 05:15 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9V15 05:20 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9P01 05:22 from West Hampstead Thameslink.

Cancelled: 9P06 06:00 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9S09 06:54 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 9T10 07:59 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9P18 09:00 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9T21 09:16 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9S24 11:08 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9T59 18:46 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9T68 22:26 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9P68 21:28 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9J67 20:54 from Peterborough.

Cancelled: 9S61 19:54 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 9K54 18:02 from Orpington.

Cancelled: 9J54 16:55 from Horsham.

Cancelled: 9K47 16:36 from West Hampstead Thameslink.

Cancelled: 9P49 16:46 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9S44 16:08 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9R39 15:35 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9R41 16:02 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9P47 16:18 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9P48 16:30 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9J51 16:54 from Peterborough.

Cancelled: 9T47 15:48 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9R56 18:33 from Gatwick Airport.

Cancelled: 9S56 19:08 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9P59 19:18 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9J66 19:55 from Horsham.

Cancelled: 9V27 08:37 from St Albans City.

Cancelled: 9V28 10:16 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9T23 09:48 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9R16 08:04 from Horsham.

Cancelled: 9O16 07:19 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9L04 06:45 from East Grinstead.

Cancelled: 9L02 06:13 from East Grinstead.

Cancelled: 9O10 05:49 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9L01 05:37 from London Bridge.

Cancelled: 9O15 05:36 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9Y60 20:22 from Sevenoaks.

Cancelled: 9W16 22:56 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9O81 22:22 from St Albans City.

Cancelled: 9K58 19:03 from Orpington.

Cancelled: 9K51 17:36 from West Hampstead Thameslink.

Cancelled: 9J45 15:24 from Peterborough.

Cancelled: 9V10 05:46 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9L03 05:43 from West Hampstead Thameslink.

Cancelled: 9V85 23:09 from St Albans City.

Cancelled: 9Y67 21:46 from London Blackfriars.

Cancelled: 9V11 04:20 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9Y71 22:46 from London Blackfriars.

Cancelled: 9O76 22:19 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9S65 20:54 from Cambridge.

Cancelled: 9Y62 20:52 from Sevenoaks.

Cancelled: 9S48 17:08 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9T90 16:26 from Brighton.

Cancelled: 9T37 13:19 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9R26 11:03 from Gatwick Airport.

Cancelled: 9V12 06:16 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9J69 21:24 from Peterborough.

Cancelled: 9V92 22:18 from Sutton Surrey.

Cancelled: 9P64 20:28 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9P70 22:00 from Rainham Kt.

Cancelled: 9P65 20:48 from Luton.

Cancelled: 9L01 05:37 from London Bridge.

Cancelled: 9L04 06:45 from East Grinstead.

Cancelled: 9W07 01:53 from Bedford.

Cancelled: 9J68 20:25 from Horsham.

Cancelled: 9J72 21:25 from Horsham.

Any news on tomorrow's cancellations ? Looking forward to the next spoiler.

 

[bramling]

The preference is to use Finsbury Park and create a Clapham Junction of North London.

Using KGX and StP clearly to be avoided if you need to travel between to find a service.

Have you seen what happens when Finsbury Park gets overcrowded? I have, and it can be alarming bordering on frightening at times. It’s one place where it’s quite easy to envisage a crush happening - all it would take is something like a last-minute platform alteration requiring a full platform worth of people to have to use the subway with people in a rush.

The *last* thing we need right now is masses of people using Finsbury Park.

All these bright ideas need to stop, and the planning be undertaken by people who actually know what they’re dealing with. Look where things have got to now, based on the ThamesLink/ dreamworld philosophy of joining random dots and “it will work”.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

It's a real mess again today out there, any sign of what a practical 'recovery timetable' could now be (assuming the Rainhams revert back to SE as a starting point)? And, amongst the all noise on the issue, anyone got any specifics on how many trained drivers actually have against requirement (50%? 60%? any more than that?) And what happened to the drivers working for SN, SE and GN who presumably now have some time on their hands following service transfers away from these 'TOCs'?