Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[arb]

Are any trains coming through the new link from Finsbury Park to the South and VV. I hope to be travelling to Ely and Cambridge later this year and was wondering if I could get a through train from perhaps London Bridge or Blackfriars?

There is timetabled to be one per hour in each direction from Cambridge (not Ely) to Brighton. The majority get cancelled. A few run each day. See here for some data from recenttraintimes.

 

[OwenB]

"Apologies for your delays and cancellations. This should be minimised on the 15th July with the new timetable. Please do claim Delay Repay for delays of over 15 mins"

One wonders what they will be tweeting when it's still shocking next week.

 

[mrmatt]

0729 FLT to somewhere south of the river this morning made additional calls at West Hampstead and Kentish To

I was on this and also found it a very strange decision. They seem to have made a habit of adding West Hampstead calls to fast southbound morning services lately but they always announce it after St Alban's so I really don't understand the point.

Last night as I got on at Farringdon they announced the late 1721 would run as booked to Luton Airport Parkway then fast to Bedford. Granted it was 25 minutes late but given they had cancelled the 1731 and it was running on the slow lines it wouldn't have gained back all that much time...

I know the controllers will have their reasons for it but they often announce these things after they are useful to anyone.

 

[AM9]

"Apologies for your delays and cancellations. This should be minimised on the 15th July with the new timetable. Please do claim Delay Repay for delays of over 15 mins"

One wonders what they will be tweeting when it's still shocking next week.

If delays and cancellations continue after the next timetable recast, the apologies and delay repay messages would still be relevant. As far as it being described as 'shocking' goes, that's something for the individual passenger to deal with.

 

[BRX]

Paul Plummer, chief executive of the Rail Delivery Group, said: "In parts of the country, many people have suffered unacceptable disruption following the introduction of the new timetable in May for which we are sincerely sorry.

"The industry is determined to learn the lessons from what went wrong."

He said train operators would focus on making sure passengers received a "reliable service" in December.

The operators which will not make changes to their existing timetable in December are Cross Country, Govia, Thameslink Railway, Great Western Railway, London Overground, Northern, South Western Railway (SWR), TransPennine Express and West Midlands Trains.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44774539

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I was on this and also found it a very strange decision. They seem to have made a habit of adding West Hampstead calls to fast southbound morning services lately but they always announce it after St Alban's so I really don't understand the point.

Last night as I got on at Farringdon they announced the late 1721 would run as booked to Luton Airport Parkway then fast to Bedford. Granted it was 25 minutes late but given they had cancelled the 1731 and it was running on the slow lines it wouldn't have gained back all that much time...

I know the controllers will have their reasons for it but they often announce these things after they are useful to anyone.

FCC used to prioritise SAC and LAP for skip stopping - the reasons are pretty obvious.

Fast to Bedford just gets the driver back ...

 

[Old School]

Rather odd the 1633 LNER to Leeds is making an extra stop at St Neots tonight -
"Service update: - 16:33 London Kings Cross to Leeds due 19:05 will call additionally at St Neots.
This is due to the train making extra stops because a train was cancelled."

I wonder who it is with influence wants to travel north and has been affected by GNRs usual afternoon cancellations.

Have you noticed that Virgin EC/LNER have been running an additional 1G00 04 50 PBO - KGX for the past few weeks calling Huntingdon, Biggleswade, Hitchin & Stevenage

 

[bramling]

Have you noticed that Virgin EC/LNER have been running an additional 1G00 04 50 PBO - KGX for the past few weeks calling Huntingdon, Biggleswade, Hitchin & Stevenage

Would imagine this is mainly aimed at getting their staff to work. Cancellation of one or more of the early morning services into London on both the GN and Midland sides would have a big effect on other railway operators whose staff rely on these services. The early morning GN service from Peterborough always carries a fair few East Coast and LU staff, plus a few from various other operators too.

 

[OwenB]

If delays and cancellations continue after the next timetable recast, the apologies and delay repay messages would still be relevant. As far as it being described as 'shocking' goes, that's something for the individual passenger to deal with.

Indeed. I was referring to the part about the delays being minimised after 15th July with the emergency timetable.

 

[philjo]

Have you noticed that Virgin EC/LNER have been running an additional 1G00 04 50 PBO - KGX for the past few weeks calling Huntingdon, Biggleswade, Hitchin & Stevenage

I understand that this service is mainly running to make sure that VTEC/LNER train crew can get to Kings Cross on time for their shifts so that their own services can run as normal. it is also taking fare paying passengers.

 

[notverydeep]

Sign of improved things to come?

2C13, the 0727 Cambridge - King's Cross has run both days this week, although picked up only very late today by customer information screens at Welwyn Garden City (and strangely retimed to two minutes later than booked - I saw that it had set of from Cambridge on time on Open Train Times maps. Bizarrely though, just behind it 1P11 0735 Peterborough - King's Cross had an additional stop at WGC. I wonder if this had been requested by staff at stations unaware 2C13 was actually running.

I did think about waiting for 1P11 as it is 2 x 365, but in the end took the declassified 'seat' in the hand on the 700 working 2C13, fearing that I would probably have to stand or that it might not stop after all with 2C13 running. In the end, 1P11 did appear to stop at WGC and despite this managed to recover some of the time lost and beat 2C13 to King's Cross by 90 seconds. Some you win, some you lose...

 

[James H]

Chris Gibb and Chris Green appeared before the transport select committee yesterday
https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/817bb9b9-fa8e-4d9b-ae24-dc62f0f7ae71

 

[47421]

Some comments on London Reconnections from people who watched Chris Gibb and Chris Green yesterday:
Having watched the Transport Select Cttee (TSC) with Chris Gibb and Chris Green I was not terribly impressed. I am not doubting their many, many years of railway experience. It just seems as if everyone has agreed this useless party line of “the industry must take the blame” and no one daring to mention the DfT for fear of being spiked by a poisoned umbrella or similar. Some of the MPs were not exactly brilliant either – they clearly just expected to be given their desired answers on a plate but Mr Gibb was not playing ball. He stuck very rigidly to his role as Chair of the Industry Readiness Board (IRB).

The striking thing that kept re-emerging was the “can do” attitude and “we must deliver this project for the passengers”. As the chair of the TSC remarked “Did no one stop to think and actually say “no”?” It looks to me that everyone was so blinded / overly enthused with “we must deliver” that any shreds of rational thought and hesitancy went out the window. Far too many comments of “with the benefit of hindsight” and “we must not break the industry timescales”. This coming from Mr Gibb who admitted that his Board had agreed to break those self same timescales and processes. It was mentioned in passing that the railway “doesn’t like to say no” to stakeholder requests. It is clear that people were, and still are, tinkering with the spec for services and the timetable. The poor souls charged with trying to deliver workable timetables and associated rosters don’t stand a chance in this ludicrously unstable environment. Someone needs to “get a grip”.

1. Yes, sitting through the entire proceedings online there were one or two strange bits.
   
   Chris Gibb went on about not training all the drivers for all the route in advance as it would be uneconomical and logistically difficult yet sitting next to him, silently, was Chris Green who I believe did just that when Thameslink originally opened. Shame that Chris Green wasn’t asked if that was what was done originally on Thameslink.
   
   Chris Gibb made out that the reversion to London Bridge in January had been brought forward to assist driver training yet, as far as the public was concerned, this always was the plan. We had been promised for years that Thameslink trains would be calling again at London Bridge in January 2018.
   
   Gibb repeated the point that training can’t happen more than six months in advance because of the need to retrain but, as I have said time and time again, there is no reason why it can’t start more than six months in advance. You just don’t want the driver signing off too soon but he has to go over the same track repeatedly in different conditions to really feel confident.
   
   Chris Gibb then further muddied the waters by stating that drivers needed to have been using complicated sections of track in the previous three months if they were deemed as critical. All the more reason to get other stuff out of the way first.
   
   Most important of all, Chris Gibb and other earlier witnesses keep emphasising that that training can’t comments more than six months in advance of being used on a regular basis but, even if true, GTR could not even manage that.
   
   I also noted that the committee asked if [reliance on] Rest Day Working impacted on driver training and the answer was just ‘no’ and it was left at that. I suspect untrue but, given that the effect is insidious, not immediately apparent. I noticed that just last Sunday there were a lot of cancellations by Southern on the West London Line due to a shortage of drivers so strongly suspect this is not entirely true.
   

And this from a TLDriver commentator

1. The best comment i’ve read regarding this (and I can’t remember who made it but Malcolm had a hand in it…) is that we (as a company) seem to think because we got through London Bridge, the 700 shortages and other various debacles that we can get through this one.
   
   It’s plain to see we can’t. There is just too great a backlog. You could paraphrase it maybe as closing the door after the horse has bolted. There are around 240 ‘drivers’ within the company at different levels of training but prior to becoming qualified, none of which are productive. Most, although not all of these, are waiting for a driver instructor. This problem is simply not going to go away. More ‘trainee drivers’ are being recruited every month but without the driver instructors the problem will persist and the bottle neck remains. Some driver instructors have been borrowed to aid training trains and route learning but then this causes further delays in the system. They have now been sent back to try and cover jobs resulting in qualified, usually productive drivers unable to take a route assessment because there are no managers/driver instructors to assess them.
   
   Some 30+ recent trainees were fully trained by South Eastern and came over to GTR as planned to improve the roll out of qualified staff. However, they too are struggling to get the support to learn their routes. A recent group of trainees have been sent the other way after waiting more than a year(!) for a driver instructor. That’s 12 months stood still doing nothing only to now be sent off to SE to learn Networkers and 375s, do their handling then back to GTR for another 700 course and….here comes the issue…learning TL routes again. For those that SE can’t train on our behalf – they can do some route learning but they will still have to do their handling hours so it will not speed the process up because they’re still waiting for DI’s. The frustrating thing is that the driver instructor shortages were highlighted by outside consultants three years ago but were either ignored or it was put in the too hard to deal with pile.
   
   Then you have to add that if all the trainers and driver managers are out handling/piloting/assessing there becomes a back log for ETCS/ATO and 717s (neither of which have started). I’m sure you will know the intricacies of when ATO is required for the 24tph better than me though I was always led to believe it was December 2018 (hence my rather tongue in cheek comment ‘roll on December…’)
   
   The word on the street is that you’ll see a 717 by the time you should but it may just end up being a sole unit in a ‘committed franchise’ gesture. My job role is a little broader than ‘driver’ nowadays and I am literally staggered at what I am seeing. There will be no quick fix.
   

 

[jon0844]

I was on this and also found it a very strange decision. They seem to have made a habit of adding West Hampstead calls to fast southbound morning services lately but they always announce it after St Alban's so I really don't understand the point.

I assume the driver gets their station stop order there and adds it on, so won't know until leaving St Albans.

A lot of amendments are done via SSOs every day, so they're not on the screens and if a driver refuses one, it also means nobody is over carried.

 

[tsr]

I assume the driver gets their station stop order there and adds it on, so won't know until leaving St Albans.

A lot of amendments are done via SSOs every day, so they're not on the screens and if a driver refuses one, it also means nobody is over carried.

In theory, all the SSOs planned the day before should be on the CIS screens - SSOs can be and are advertised just the same way as scheduled stops.

There are others added at very short notice, of course, which may not appear until the service has left the last booked stop before the special stop.

Any failing is hopefully only a software fault and hopefully not an operational issue.

 

[jon0844]

Sign of improved things to come?

2C13, the 0727 Cambridge - King's Cross has run both days this week, although picked up only very late today by customer information screens at Welwyn Garden City (and strangely retimed to two minutes later than booked - I saw that it had set of from Cambridge on time on Open Train Times maps. Bizarrely though, just behind it 1P11 0735 Peterborough - King's Cross had an additional stop at WGC. I wonder if this had been requested by staff at stations unaware 2C13 was actually running.

I did think about waiting for 1P11 as it is 2 x 365, but in the end took the declassified 'seat' in the hand on the 700 working 2C13, fearing that I would probably have to stand or that it might not stop after all with 2C13 running. In the end, 1P11 did appear to stop at WGC and despite this managed to recover some of the time lost and beat 2C13 to King's Cross by 90 seconds. Some you win, some you lose...

The stop order on 1P11 was put on by Huntingdon. Not sure why, but possibly to get people TO WGC rather than to get people from WGC to King's Cross.

Remember that in the peaks there's no first class in operation at the moment.

 

[ComUtoR]

Some 30+ recent trainees were fully trained by South Eastern and came over to GTR as planned to improve the roll out of qualified staff. However, they too are struggling to get the support to learn their routes. A recent group of trainees have been sent the other way after waiting more than a year(!) for a driver instructor. That’s 12 months stood still doing nothing only to now be sent off to SE to learn Networkers and 375s, do their handling then back to GTR for another 700 course and….here comes the issue…learning TL routes again. For those that SE can’t train on our behalf – they can do some route learning but they will still have to do their handling hours so it will not speed the process up because they’re still waiting for DI’s. The frustrating thing is that the driver instructor shortages were highlighted by outside consultants three years ago but were either ignored or it was put in the too hard to deal with pile.

33 Trainees were the initial batch sent to SE so that they could be trained and ready before being sent back to GTR. The absolute stupidity of this still shocks me to this day and stupidly this is still continuing. This plan was doomed to start with. It was dumb plan being implemented out of blind panic. It was not coordinated and it failed to account for the long term plan of getting fully qualified Drivers into GTR before May. If anything, it made it worse because GTR now had Drivers with no experience driving their own stock and some didn't even have experience on their own routes. I met a couple of new Drivers who had passed out MONTHS before and were still yet to have a traction course but were out route learning on the routes they drove as Trainees ! Due to many, if not most, of the new Drivers not having driven for months after passing out, huge safety risk btw, they needed to get another 40 or so driving hours under instruction to meet competence standards. This still hadn't started in April ! This was all happening whilst GTR were still training Trainees their side who wouldn't even be near qualified in May.

 

[malc-c]

No idea what was happening this morning, but I was at Knebworth between 09:30 and 10:30 and it was gridlocked both directions, with trains backed up on red signals. One 700 was held for around 15 minutes to allow two 180's to crawl past, whilst two 43's in succession were held at reds just south of the platforms, heading northbound....

 

[notverydeep]

Not sure why, but possibly to get people TO WGC rather than to get people from WGC to King's Cross.

Yes indeed, I had assumed that all of the additional stops at Welwyn Garden City in the morning peak, typically 1R07 0712 Baldock to London Kings Cross, 1R09 0738 Royston - King's Cross and to a lesser extent 1R11 0812 Baldock to London Kings Cross were for the benefit of passengers travelling to WGC (or to change at WGC for Hatfield and Welham Green) from the north, where the cancellation of the Cambridge slows that form the xx:22 and xx:52 departures from WGC have severed that link. In the morning peak, these flows are 100+ passengers per train and would require 2-3 substitute buses each if these stops were not added.

Other than on the very worst days, passengers from WGC towards London have still had the generally more reliable 2YXX trains to King's Cross and failing that, Moorgate services. I am in no doubt that the need 10 minutes for a train that is planned to reach King's Cross at worse 20 minutes later than the missing train would not usually justify stop orders, especially on what would be very full trains anyway. Such stops are a bonus for WGC passengers and I have used 1R09 a few times when it has stopped, but it is not very comfortable and often not particularly fast having missed its proper path.

 

[philjo]

No idea what was happening this morning, but I was at Knebworth between 09:30 and 10:30 and it was gridlocked both directions, with trains backed up on red signals. One 700 was held for around 15 minutes to allow two 180's to crawl past, whilst two 43's in succession were held at reds just south of the platforms, heading northbound....

I saw a message about delays due to trespassers on the track in the Welwyn area.

 

[Failed Unit]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44774539

Very concerning we have another year of a substandard service. I wonder if the other routes will ever happen now.

But just 1tph at the weekends is a big backwards step.

 

[notverydeep]

Very concerning we have another year of a substandard service. I wonder if the other routes will ever happen now.

But just 1tph at the weekends is a big backwards step.

Presumably, a return to any part of the May 2018 planned level of service (weekday or weekend) can be introduced at any suitable point by GTR within the duration of the timetable without having to be re-bid, even if it hasn't so far ever run? Whether we see more weekend services anytime before May 2019 is another question entirely...

Under the July 15th plan Saturdays, curiously seem to be worse hit than Sundays. On Sundays, the peak direction extra Cambridge line slows (most actually to / from Letchworth) do appear to have been retained, giving 2 tph for parts of the day in the busy direction. On Saturdays (despite being busier), the hourly service is from start to close of traffic.

 

[Verulamius]

I remember being told about a year ago that GTR had a policy of not removing St Albans stops in the evening rush hour as that just made crowding worse.

A few weeks ago I was on a Thameslink express train (St Albans, Luton and Bedford only after St Pancras) which at St Pancras announced it was missing St Albans as it was running late. It was still stopping at Luton. More than half the train got off and the train was delayed for about 3 to 4 mins at St Pancras while this was sorted. My guess is that no time was actually gained overall on the journey back to Bedford as a result.

 

[jon0844]

No idea what was happening this morning, but I was at Knebworth between 09:30 and 10:30 and it was gridlocked both directions, with trains backed up on red signals. One 700 was held for around 15 minutes to allow two 180's to crawl past, whilst two 43's in succession were held at reds just south of the platforms, heading northbound....

A man dangling from a bridge just north of WGC. Police negotiators went to the site to bring them down, with trains cautioned for some time. Plus a speed restriction on the up line south of WGC (20mph).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I remember being told about a year ago that GTR had a policy of not removing St Albans stops in the evening rush hour as that just made crowding worse.

A few weeks ago I was on a Thameslink express train (St Albans, Luton and Bedford only after St Pancras) which at St Pancras announced it was missing St Albans as it was running late. It was still stopping at Luton. More than half the train got off and the train was delayed for about 3 to 4 mins at St Pancras while this was sorted. My guess is that no time was actually gained overall on the journey back to Bedford as a result.

I overheard a crammed SAC / LTN / Bedford fast proudly called out as a "Thameslink Express" the other evening.

Agreed - the time taken at St Pancras LL to remove passengers off a train , might as well be used in getting SAC / LTN passengers home - hot , tired commuters and others are pretty quick in self unloadng at their station. A 59 min or so late is in dire trouble anyway.

 

[ungreat]

I cant see any improvement after 15th July..route learning is still suspended..

 

[ungreat]

I cant see any improvement after 15th July....route learning is still suspended

 

[jagardner1984]

What is totally incomprehensible to me is: if you were GTR or DfT, wouldn't you want passenger expectations into next week to be 100% realistic, even conservatively so.

What is achieved by continuing to deceive themselves and the public about this ? Clearly, the highly vocal commuters on the service will find out soon enough, so not just put out a statement delaying the timetable. Why announce stuff that is palpably not deliverable.

GTR = the WHY franchise ...

 

[OwenB]

What is totally incomprehensible to me is: if you were GTR or DfT, wouldn't you want passenger expectations into next week to be 100% realistic, even conservatively so.

What is achieved by continuing to deceive themselves and the public about this ? Clearly, the highly vocal commuters on the service will find out soon enough, so not just put out a statement delaying the timetable. Why announce stuff that is palpably not deliverable.

GTR = the WHY franchise ...

I honestly think GTR have believed it (whatever 'it' happens to be at any moment in time) will work, no matter any evidence to the contrary, which I think is the scary thing.

 

[OwenB]

Today, Wednesday 11 July 2018 - Updated at 08:20
Additional cancellations are to be expected this afternoon. The resourcing departments are working hard to ensure that as few services are affected as possible. Further information will be available on this at 16:00.

This is beyond a joke now.