Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[philjo]

The 0610 from Kings Lynn was also making an additional stop at WGC this morning. Though not sure how many could have boarded this as it was full at Letchworth as running as 8 coaches instead of 12 today. After Letchworth it was announced as calling at Stevenage, WGC and Kings Cross.

 

[tsr]

The timetable on the Brighton Mainline and branches seems to have completely fallen apart tonight at the close of service. Multiple Southern trains are mysteriously running 30+ late (not to mention ECS queuing back through East Croydon to get into Selhurst) and various TL trains are hardly untouched. There appears to be no cohesive reason - it just... is.

(There have been a few issues earlier in the evening, but no especially spectacular catastrophes.)

 

[Failed Unit]

I think passengers are getting irritated by this standard reply.

Apologies for your delays and cancellations. This should be minimised on the 15th July with the new timetable. Please do claim Delay Repay for delays of over 15 mins:

Look at today - typical day at WGC.

0732 WGC - London scheduled to run 1 hour late (nonstop to Kings Cross)

0727 Cambridge- London actually running (which is always a surprise)

I guess GTR haven’t told anyone what has changed and passengers don’t believe them. With this being the response to every delay / cancellation from the twitter team. I expect tempers to be a little more frayed next week when they fail to operate a timetable with more peak trains in it then they currently attempt (and fail) to deliver.

*** Edit
In the end the 0732 was cancelled and the 0821 London - Cambridge started at WGC instead. Fair enough to get the service to recover. But the other big annoyance highlighted- to the passengers no planning. Poor folk at KX would have just seen “Delayed” then cancelled and probably not attempted to use options in the blind hope the train may run.

 

[Aictos]

Another 'UFL' moment, this morning at Welwyn Garden City. If those last three words make you go 'oh not again', I would skip the rest of the post! My 'favourite' train is 2C13 0727 Cambridge - King's Cross. This has mostly been cancelled since the start of the May 2018 service, but thankfully is included in the July 15th timetable. After a couple of weeks with few appearances, it had run Monday to Wednesday this week. It has had random slightly different timings on Live Departures - some days it is 0822 as shown in the timetable, other days it is 0821 or 0824 for no apparent reason. But our luck ran out at WGC today and despite it showing on Live Departures as running (at 0824) earlier, it ended up cancelled. Instead, Live Departures and the station passenger information screens promised 1P11 at 0827 as an additional stop at platform 2 (this is the 0735 Peterborough - King's Cross). It was showing as few minutes late though, so if this didn't stop, we would have to leg it back across the footbridge to platform 4 for 2Y17 0832 WGC - King's Cross...

In the end 1P11 was held up by some other services across Digswell Viaduct. Eventually, it came into view and it was apparent that it was going to pass at speed on the up fast line. I was the first to run up the stairs, but only to see 2Y17 start to move bang on 0832. This was despite one of the revenue staff asking for it to be held and telling customers that it would be held one minute to 0833! Thus circa 100 people were left behind.

Presumably, the stop order was cancelled before 1P11 left Stevenage or else the 100+ commuters to WGC must have ended up at King's Cross? The absence of a passenger emergency alarm stop at Brookmans Park (the next platform on the fast line) suggests WGC bound passengers were not on 1P11. That would have allowed a 10 minute window for staff at Stevenage to call their colleagues and prevent them being made to look completely stupid (and possibly the subject of abuse). I can understand that getting information from service control is hard, but surely station staff at least should help each other out? And really, just don't promise to hold trains that you can't hold or aren't going to be held...

So we had to wait for the 0852 (2C15 0750 Cambridge North - King's Cross). This was already full and standing because of the cancellation of 1R11, the 0812 Baldock - King's Cross, which is not a normal cancellation and is worked by 365s. 2C15 is a really boring train, with 13 minutes between its booked arrival at Finsbury Park and its time into King's Cross, presumably as it is timed as if going to Maidstone and there isn't a platform available until seven or so minutes after it would naturally want to arrive. Despite being scheduled it is clear that many passengers perceive this extra time as a delay.

When the pre May timetable was in place and you had a reliable service from Welwyn Garden City for example if you missed one train there was always another one just 20 mins later give or take a few mins so there was no need for trains to be held and such the culture of right time departure should have been adopted as the policy however with the post May timetable being unreliable as it is as especially if trains are advertised to call at stations even as additional stops if this is not happening then GTR should be doing everything possible to ensure people are not left on the platforms and if this meant 2Y17 above being held a extra minute or two so be it.

With the delays and cancellations as it is at the moment, a extra minute or two for a train to be held for passengers to board especially as they've already had one train cancelled and another advertised to stop additionally but didn't a extra minute or two doesn't seem to be a lot and makes sense especially in the peak.

I know from past experience that platform staff can have a certain amount of freedom in doing this which was accepted in the past especially with last minute platform changes as a example families with buggies having to dash from Platform 2 at Hertford to Platform 1 to catch the hourly Stevenage so I fail to see why this culture of good customer service is not happening.

Now while I'm a supporter of Right Time Railway and believe in keeping delays to a minimum but sometimes you have to use judgement to judge if a delay to a train is a valid reason and in this case it was.

End of the day, it all comes down to good customer service and the current leadership of GTR seem to be taking lessons from Basil Fawlty which is disappointing and you most certainly shouldn't be advertising trains calling additionally if they're not actually going to stop!

 

[bramling]

There are no 365's stored at Ely any more.

Putting two and two together, it appears there are more 365's in Passenger service now. So unless those at Ely have been stored somewhere else, your suggestion has already come to fruition, (as some on here forecast would happen).

Unfortunately those 365s not in Scotland now appear to be stored at Northampton. There have been vague rumours that LNWR might be interested as a replacement for their troublesome 319s, but not sure how true this is.

However, it seems 365511 and 539 remain with GN, and may well do continue to do so. If there is no improvement soon I think it’s possible some more may come back, assuming someone else doesn’t lease them of course.

 

[ungreat]

Stabling trains is now a very big issue. Many locations are full, and as a result of the current situation despite quite a few 717s being ready to ship over, GTR are apparently keeping them all in Germany for the forseeable future (bar of course those already here for training purposes).

(Also I did see two 365s covered in graffiti heading down towards London earlier this week, so they may be ones that were parked up by Ely. No idea what is going to happen with them in terms of service.)

There are a couple of 717s in Ferme Park. Hornsey wont accept them. They are easily seen as they appear to be 700s with no yellow fronts@

 

[OwenB]

End of the day, it all comes down to good customer service and the current leadership of GTR seem to be taking lessons from Basil Fawlty which is disappointing and you most certainly shouldn't be advertising trains calling additionally if they're not actually going to stop!

I look forward to them hitting trains with tree branches.

 

[Failed Unit]

There are a couple of 717s in Ferme Park. Hornsey wont accept them. They are easily seen as they appear to be 700s with no yellow fronts@

Not surprised. Every time I go past Hornsey in the peak it is full of 700s. The joys of not bothering to do driver training.

 

[ComUtoR]

Not surprised. Every time I go past Hornsey in the peak it is full of 700s. The joys of not bothering to do driver training.

How is a lack of berthing space down to a lack of Driver training ? I know that my side of the river has no more space and we have even bent the rules to berth an additional unit.. I don't understand how that would be down to training.

 

[Fred26]

How is a lack of berthing space down to a lack of Driver training ? I know that my side of the river has no more space and we have even bent the rules to berth an additional unit.. I don't understand how that would be down to training.

If the drivers had been trained the trains would be out working services.

As it is drivers are being trained on 700s now. I know of several that have only learnt these units in the last few weeks.

 

[samuelmorris]

If the drivers had been trained the trains would be out working services.

As it is drivers are being trained on 700s now. I know of several that have only learnt these units in the last few weeks.

This is true, but what about at the end of the day? There is a very minimal number of units needed for the overnight services.

 

[GoatSarah]

I had the most surreal experience yesterday. The 16:54 CBG - BTN ran, 35 minutes late. It ran fast to STP, missing the usual stops. The 17:14 CBG-KGX ran semi fast to compensate.

I needed to get to Moorgate and turned up at Cambridge station a few minutes before the BTN service actually left. Saw it was still there, got on it just as the door alarm started sounding.

I had a 12 carriage 700 to myself in rush hour. There was literally nobody else on it. And it ran fast all the way to St Pancras.

 

[philjo]

I had the most surreal experience yesterday. The 16:54 CBG - BTN ran, 35 minutes late. It ran fast to STP, missing the usual stops. The 17:14 CBG-KGX ran semi fast to compensate.

I needed to get to Moorgate and turned up at Cambridge station a few minutes before the BTN service actually left. Saw it was still there, got on it just as the door alarm started sounding.

I had a 12 carriage 700 to myself in rush hour. There was literally nobody else on it. And it ran fast all the way to St Pancras.

I got to Cambridge station about 16:45 and the Brighton train wasn't even listed on the departures board. I got the 16:57 stopper

 

[ungreat]

Those 717s wont be doing anything anytime soon...the GSMR isnt to UK specs and the pantographs also are not UK spec!

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Those 717s wont be doing anything anytime soon...the GSMR isnt to UK specs and the pantographs also are not UK spec!

Errrr.... could you elaborate? Is this because they've been having fun in Germany and need conversion? Presumably it's not an oversight during the build?

 

[Aictos]

I look forward to them hitting trains with tree branches.

If you watched Fawlty Towers you know I was referring to the poor standards of Customer Service Basil inflicts on his poor guests and not the scene which he hits his car with a tree branch!

 

[OwenB]

If you watched Fawlty Towers you know I was referring to the poor standards of Customer Service Basil inflicts on his poor guests and not the scene which he hits his car with a tree branch!

Nor the one where he hides the dead body in the cupboard? I think that's why the loos are often out of order.

 

[Failed Unit]

How is a lack of berthing space down to a lack of Driver training ? I know that my side of the river has no more space and we have even bent the rules to berth an additional unit.. I don't understand how that would be down to training.

As Fred26 states in the post below. If the drivers were trained they would be out earning revenue. Never in all my time travelling have I seen so many units in Hornsey in the morning at 0800. Normally at that time you will have a couple but that is it. But at the moment the stock that should be used to operate the 0657 and 0727 Cambridge to London to name 2 are stuck in Hornsey because GTR didn’t bother working on a driver training plan.

It is possible other units if they were in revenue earning service would park up at Cambridge, Peterborough and WGC (on Great Northern) and other locations on Thameslink rather than being stuck at Hornsey.

Saying that you work for them. It could be possible Hornsey would be full of trains in the peaks even if all drivers were trained.

 

[bramling]

As Fred26 states in the post below. If the drivers were trained they would be out earning revenue. Never in all my time travelling have I seen so many units in Hornsey in the morning at 0800. Normally at that time you will have a couple but that is it. But at the moment the stock that should be used to operate the 0657 and 0727 Cambridge to London to name 2 are stuck in Hornsey because GTR didn’t bother working on a driver training plan.

It is possible other units if they were in revenue earning service would park up at Cambridge, Peterborough and WGC (on Great Northern) and other locations on Thameslink rather than being stuck at Hornsey.

Saying that you work for them. It could be possible Hornsey would be full of trains in the peaks even if all drivers were trained.

It wouldn’t be full in the peaks, however it might well be overnight.

Generally the GN has worked on the basis that the outers have stabled at the country end overnight and in Hornsey during the day, with the opposite applying to the inners. Obviously this wasn’t total, but was the general theme. This efficient arrangement has broken down a little in recent years, mainly due to more units being out during the day due to longer trains.

There is however a bit more stabling available, in the form of the new Hornsey shed, plus Spital sidings at Peterborough.

The FailedPlan2020 shambles certainly isn’t going to be helping, but I suspect they may have been a little short even without. Units still have to go to Hornsey for maintenance, even if some of the remote locations are used to capacity.

It may hot have helped that the Hornsey facility isn’t quite as big as originally planned.

Depending on the extent of training required it could prove crazy to try introducing the 717s at the moment. Whilst there are some minor performance, reliability and capacity benefits, this won’t be worthwhile if it results in yet more cancellations. In that sense they may well be better off securely storing the bulk of the 717s and introducing them a little way into the future when there isn’t so much crap going on.

 

[samuelmorris]

Unless they really are falling apart, the 717s are unlikely to surpass the 313s' level of reliability within 12 months of their introduction. I imagine they will likely be on hold until things are slightly less chaotic.

 

[jon0844]

717s are being delayed (held in Germany) until further notice. Apparently it takes 6 weeks to build one and there are already quite a few built and ready to go, but nowhere to put them.

So the positive is that they're still being built (so it's not an actual delay in construction), but the negative is that sooner or later Siemens are likely to want rid of them. How much storage space can they have for trains that we're not ready to accept?

 

[ComUtoR]

As Fred26 states in the post below. If the drivers were trained they would be out earning revenue. Never in all my time travelling have I seen so many units in Hornsey in the morning at 0800. Normally at that time you will have a couple but that is it. But at the moment the stock that should be used to operate the 0657 and 0727 Cambridge to London to name 2 are stuck in Hornsey because GTR didn’t bother working on a driver training plan.

I kinda understand that there would be units parked up because they can't go into service but there is more to it than that. Units have their own diagrams and will run multiple services throughout the day. It also only takes a few units on some lines to run a full service as sometimes it means that the same unit just goes end to end all day. Those two services you mention may not have a trained Driver one day but could easily have one the next. Also those services have a return journey, they will also get cancelled if the stock was stuck in Hornsey all day, every day. I understand that lack of Drivers means units get trapped in sidings etc as its happened to me on many many occasions.

Not forgetting that the number of Driver diagrams at a depot and the number of Drivers are not the same. I have a link of 60+ and on any one day there is less than a 3rd of that number actually booked to work and of that 3rd you still need to break it down further to early/middle/late shifts. So even with a lack of trained Drivers you could still have 50% of your Drivers untrained but still be able to run the service. Therefore my perspective is its more than just a lack of trained Drivers.

Cricklewood last week was a prime example of a lack of space. The service went to the wall and everything got dumped in Cricklewood. Suffice to say it was over capacity and units were squeezed in tight. My example of one of our sidings having a new operational instruction is because they just can't stable enough services either overnight or during the day. There is a space issue with the new units.

Saying that you work for them.

I don't work for GTR

It could be possible Hornsey would be full of trains in the peaks even if all drivers were trained.

I couldn't say for certain. I don't have the full picture but, like you, I wonder how much is down to the space issue and how much is down to other reasons. Every day my depot is covering their work and more and no turns go uncovered but services are still cancelled. I've said many times in this thread. The combination of so much going wrong and certainly being uncoordinated just keeps breaking the service.

You also have to consider that units are booked on a cycle so there is always stock sitting about in sheds on maintenance etc. We also keep units spare so that they can be used as service recovery and to cover faults etc. The fleet is never in 100% usage. I remember reading in the 700 thread that units are being delivered and will need their test mileages done before entering service so a percentage of those units are still yet to be signed into service anyway.

 

[bramling]

I kinda understand that there would be units parked up because they can't go into service but there is more to it than that. Units have their own diagrams and will run multiple services throughout the day. It also only takes a few units on some lines to run a full service as sometimes it means that the same unit just goes end to end all day. Those two services you mention may not have a trained Driver one day but could easily have one the next. Also those services have a return journey, they will also get cancelled if the stock was stuck in Hornsey all day, every day. I understand that lack of Drivers means units get trapped in sidings etc as its happened to me on many many occasions.

Not forgetting that the number of Driver diagrams at a depot and the number of Drivers are not the same. I have a link of 60+ and on any one day there is less than a 3rd of that number actually booked to work and of that 3rd you still need to break it down further to early/middle/late shifts. So even with a lack of trained Drivers you could still have 50% of your Drivers untrained but still be able to run the service. Therefore my perspective is its more than just a lack of trained Drivers.

Cricklewood last week was a prime example of a lack of space. The service went to the wall and everything got dumped in Cricklewood. Suffice to say it was over capacity and units were squeezed in tight. My example of one of our sidings having a new operational instruction is because they just can't stable enough services either overnight or during the day. There is a space issue with the new units.



I don't work for GTR



I couldn't say for certain. I don't have the full picture but, like you, I wonder how much is down to the space issue and how much is down to other reasons. Every day my depot is covering their work and more and no turns go uncovered but services are still cancelled. I've said many times in this thread. The combination of so much going wrong and certainly being uncoordinated just keeps breaking the service.

You also have to consider that units are booked on a cycle so there is always stock sitting about in sheds on maintenance etc. We also keep units spare so that they can be used as service recovery and to cover faults etc. The fleet is never in 100% usage. I remember reading in the 700 thread that units are being delivered and will need their test mileages done before entering service so a percentage of those units are still yet to be signed into service anyway.

The July temporary timetable I believe requires 17 fewer Undesiros, although not sure how this breaks down in terms of length and location on the wider network. That in itself is quite a few trains, although of course bar a very small handful of overnight services these would have been berthing somewhere overnight anyway, although in many cases likely not Hornsey!

In that sense it seems like another mess-up to have the 717s following on so closely, although fortunately this one probably has a get-out-of-jail card - albeit on the assumption that the 313s can be kept going for a bit longer.

If I had my way I would just have the surplus Undesiros scrapped, and bring back the stored 365s for an hourly semi-fast Cambridge and Peterborough KX service. No problems with route or traction knowledge on that one!

On the GN side it’s hard to see where more trains could readily be accommodated. There’s a bit of space at both Hitchin and Hertford, although only for a handful of units. Neither location is really set up for this at present. Ferme Park isn’t a routine location either and in any case has various use for freight and LNER trains etc.

Can’t remember if Nene sidings
at Peterborough has any spare
space. From memory it provides 6x387 and 9x365 nowadays - can’t remember offhand what it provided before but think it may have been slightly more although would have to check.

 

[Agent_Squash]

If I had my way I would just have the surplus Undesiros scrapped, and bring back the stored 365s for an hourly semi-fast Cambridge and Peterborough KX service. No problems with route or traction knowledge on that one!

Why not refurbish the Desiro’s so they are equivalent or better to the 365s, and have air conditioning?

 

[AM9]

Why not refurbish the Desiro’s so they are equivalent or better to the 365s, and have air conditioning?

a) they don't need refurbishing, the oldest ones are have only been in service for just over 2 years
b) which politician is going to authorise such unnecessary expenditure anyway?

 

[Agent_Squash]

a) they don't need refurbishing, the oldest ones are have only been in service for just over 2 years
b) which politician is going to authorise such unnecessary expenditure anyway?

The post I quoted suggested scrapping the Desiro’s - far more wasteful than a refurb.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Why stop at wanting the 365s back? I'd like a loco hauled Pullman with plush fabric seats and a nice wooden dining table on top of which is a full English breakfast each morning on my 20 minute trip to Moorgate. I don't want to pay for it though. /s

 

[bramling]

The post I quoted suggested scrapping the Desiro’s - far more wasteful than a refurb.

To be fair, I was half joking (but only half).

It would be quite possible to cascade the undesired Desiros. The FLUs could quite happily replace RLUs elsewhere on ShamblesLink/, and the handful of remaining RLUs could find use on metro services anywhere within the GTR franchise.

As for a refurb, it’s mainly a case of changing the seating layout - the first class isn’t bad at all so just make the whole train like that. Personally I’d get rid of the walk-through layout as well.

 

[Fred26]

Personally I’d get rid of the walk-through layout as well.

Why? I think that's the best bit.

 

[bramling]

Why? I think that's the best bit.

Personal taste, however for me it devalues the journey experience. It feels like sitting in a corridor or throughfare, and personally I’m not overly convinced about the benefits in spreading loadings and dwell times - I see it encouraging people to congregate by the doorway at their chosen exit location, which is *very bad* for dwell times. Kings Cross outer rail is a very good example of this on S stock.