Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[notverydeep]

The Moorgate services aren't at 15 minute intervals. In the new timetable from WGC, it's xx58, xx09, xx28 and xx39. Every other one stopping at Brookmans Park and Welham Green.

But now off peak (between around 1000 and 1600) there's a xx09, xx26 and xx58. I don't know the new stopping patterns.

The seemingly random stopping patterns are a result of the need to fit the 'Cambridge slow' Thameslink trains (route TL7 in the consultation that will become Cambridge to Maidstone trains in the 'end state' timetable) onto the slow lines. These services are planned to call only at Hatfield and Potters Bar on the four track section between Welwyn Garden City and Finsbury Park. WGC to Finsbury Park can be done in 21 minutes even on the slow lines (as say the 0859 departure from WGC in the pre May timetable), but even if the this were timetabled immediately before a WGC Moorgate service on the minimum headway, the previous all stations WGC Moorgate service would have to leave WGC 19½ minutes ahead of the faster service, giving a gap of 21½ minutes between the two Moorgate services.

To avoid such a gap, the Cambridge slow trains have slacker timings and the WGC Moorgate services are speeded up by omitting some stations, in the AM Peak towards Finsbury Park this means alternately missing out Hornsey and Harringay (train 1, which can be routed via the outer pair of tracks between Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park - Up Fast / Slow 2) and then Hadley Wood, Oakleigh Park and New Southgate (train 2). The TL8 trains (with 2YXX headcodes) that run peak only between Welwyn Garden City and King's Cross (Sevenoaks eventually) are easier to fit, but the net result is that more or less all of the trains on the slow lines must either leave WGC or arrive at Alexandra Palace on minimum headways, making all of the slow line service groups vulnerable to delay, even though there is only 8 trains per hour in each direction.

The Cambridge slows really want to be on the fast lines across this section and ironically, with 4 tph stopping at Welwyn North, there are two spare fast line paths per hour south of Welwyn North. This is because each Welwyn North stopper arrives in one fast line path and departs in the next, leaving the first empty further along the route. This path could potentially be taken by the Cambridge Slow south of Marshmoor Junction if timed correctly (there isn't a similar crossover to Marshmoor on the down side and one would be required to facilitate this in the down direction). This would mean that the Cambridge Slows couldn't serve Potters Bar in the peaks, but would in turn release more useable capacity on the slow lines south of WGC for more Moorgate trains with more consistent stopping patterns and it would of course be a welcome return to faster King's Cross trains from WGC...

Contrast all this with the early timetables of GN Electrics to Moorgate between 1977 and 1980. These feature 9 tph all stations Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate (and 18 tph total into Moorgate)! Sadly the decline in traffic in the late 1970s saw many of the extra 313s required moved away to other lines as the service was reduced.

As with any Metro, high frequency (on one set of tracks) can really only be achieved with trains that do the same thing. Remember that when you hear 'Digital Railway' (which really just means Metro like signalling) promises of doubled capacity!

 

[Bikeman78]

The Moorgate services aren't at 15 minute intervals. In the new timetable from WGC, it's xx58, xx09, xx28 and xx39. Every other one stopping at Brookmans Park and Welham Green.

But now off peak (between around 1000 and 1600) there's a xx09, xx26 and xx58. I don't know the new stopping patterns.

The xx09 and xx39 stop at Brookmans Park and Welham Green. Because they have cancelled the xx39 the stops have transferred to the xx26. Possibly the worst service for these stations since the 313s arrived? The inner suburban workings were doing pretty well so I don't know why they've cancelled some off peak trains.

 

[Downthelane]

It's the "escape to the country" impact that is impacting the Moorgate services. Back in early days of GN it was rare to commute from distant parts of Cambrideshire and hence demand for more outer paths was lower.

The large population growth in towns 50+ miles north is impacting the Metro services and is another reason why the whole timetable plan was doomed to failure.

 

[jon0844]

The xx09 and xx39 stop at Brookmans Park and Welham Green. Because they have cancelled the xx39 the stops have transferred to the xx26. Possibly the worst service for these stations since the 313s arrived? The inner suburban workings were doing pretty well so I don't know why they've cancelled some off peak trains.

At some point the WGC drivers doing 313 runs to Moorgate need to begin training for 700 and 717s, so perhaps the gaps off peak are to facilitate that?

 

[Dunnyrail]

Was very brave on Monday and attempted a trip from St.Neots to Peterborough around late morning, all worked well and to time. Things indeed have improved some and I can stop holding my baited breath for a while it appears.

What chances on the 29th to get to the Bluebell for the Modelling Event and will any puffers be running on the Bluebell that day?

 

[Bikeman78]

At some point the WGC drivers doing 313 runs to Moorgate need to begin training for 700 and 717s, so perhaps the gaps off peak are to facilitate that?

You are probably right though wrecking the off peak timetable is hardly an acceptable way to go about it. It's not as if the requirement for driver training has crept up on them. As a comparison, Scotrail has trained drivers very quickly on the 365s without (the the best of my knowledge) cancelling lots of trains in the process.

 

[E759]

Was very brave on Monday and attempted a trip from St.Neots to Peterborough around late morning, all worked well and to time. Things indeed have improved some and I can stop holding my baited breath for a while it appears.

What chances on the 29th to get to the Bluebell for the Modelling Event and will any puffers be running on the Bluebell that day?

This page shows the Loco rosta
https://www.bluebell-railway.com/whats_on/today-at-the-railway/

 

[jimney]

The seemingly random stopping patterns are a result of the need to fit the 'Cambridge slow' Thameslink trains (route TL7 in the consultation that will become Cambridge to Maidstone trains in the 'end state' timetable) onto the slow lines. These services are planned to call only at Hatfield and Potters Bar on the four track section between Welwyn Garden City and Finsbury Park.

So I get that, and it makes sense. My confusion though is why this only seems to affect the Southbound services. Is it because they are currently not starting at Maidstone and going through the core? The northbound service, both during the peak and off-peak times is a lot more regular and more sensibly timed! Does that mean once they start from Maidstone the northbound service is going to be nerfed as well? :/

 

[Dunnyrail]

This page shows the Loco rosta
https://www.bluebell-railway.com/whats_on/today-at-the-railway/

Many thanks for that, super help link. JonD

 

[paul332]

The fact that this thread has had no posts for 15 hours whereas since May 20 they were coming at roughly the same frequency as the cancellations (every 2-10 minutes approx) seems to be indicative of the historic achievement of the latest timetable! Well done drivers and all others whose cooperation has evidently finally delivered an apparently workable service, which hopefully (a) will sustain; and (b) will be incrementally upgraded towards the eventual 24tph, ideally during my lifetime.

 

[OwenB]

The fact that this thread has had no posts for 15 hours whereas since May 20 they were coming at roughly the same frequency as the cancellations (every 2-10 minutes approx) seems to be indicative of the historic achievement of the latest timetable! Well done drivers and all others whose cooperation has evidently finally delivered an apparently workable service, which hopefully (a) will sustain; and (b) will be incrementally upgraded towards the eventual 24tph, ideally during my lifetime.

Are we confident about point b?

 

[jon0844]

Are we confident about point b?

It will happen, but when? In the coming weeks or in time for the December update?

Today has been a good day so far. PPM as at 1320 is 88% on time, 10% late and 2% very late or cancelled.

That's 1374 trains so far with 29 very late or cancelled. 1220 on time.

 

[notverydeep]

So I get that, and it makes sense. My confusion though is why this only seems to affect the Southbound services. Is it because they are currently not starting at Maidstone and going through the core? The northbound service, both during the peak and off-peak times is a lot more regular and more sensibly timed! Does that mean once they start from Maidstone the northbound service is going to be nerfed as well? :/

The Northbound services (at least in the PM Peak) have even more time between Finsbury Park and WGC (24 minutes) and they have long stands at Finsbury Park. Because their platform is needed at King's Cross, they are timed to depart earlier than their path from Maidstone would require at Finsbury Park. Even so, they tend to catch up with the Moorgate - WGC trains that serve Brookmans Park and Welham Green and are scheduled to reach WGC on a minimum headway ahead of the Cambridge train, especially if the Moorgate - WGC train is at all late. Also, even since May 20th, I have seen / travelled on a number of the Cambridge slow trains that have got the down fast line, when other slow services are late. Northbound departures of Thameslink (that is not Moorgate) to WGC are on 14 / 16 minute intervals at Finsbury, although the different stopping patterns mean this is 17 / 13 minute intervals on arrival at WGC.

The fact that this thread has had no posts for 15 hours whereas since May 20 they were coming at roughly the same frequency as the cancellations (every 2-10 minutes approx) seems to be indicative of the historic achievement of the latest timetable! Well done drivers and all others whose cooperation has evidently finally delivered an apparently workable service, which hopefully (a) will sustain; and (b) will be incrementally upgraded towards the eventual 24tph, ideally during my lifetime.

It is certainly true that performance has improved this week on Great Northern at least, especially the reduction in the number of peak cancellations. One side affect of this, is that the robustness of the timetable with everything running is being tested more fully. My homebound journey yesterday illustrated just how many vulnerabilities there are and how signallers really have to be on top of things to avoid lateness spreading:

I took 9J54 1655 Horsham - Peterborough from Blackfriars intending to change at Finsbury Park onto 2C48 1821 King's Cross - Cambridge to travel to Welwyn Garden City.

9J54 lost time from Gatwick gradually to East Croydon (it seems vulnerable to this). Nevertheless, it was only six minutes late at St. Pancras and booked two and a half minutes at Finsbury, so I was not worrying to much as the connection between the two trains is nominally 10 minutes (1821 arrive on 9J54 to 1831 depart on 2C48). So I was surprised that 9J54 was held on the Down Slow approaching Finsbury Park. A glance at the Open Train Times map confirmed that I was out of luck, we were being held because 2C48 had been routed ahead and was now taking its booked stand and waiting for its booked departure time at Finsbury Park. What followed was quite illuminating. 9J54 eventually arrived at Finsbury Park at 1833 and had the road onto the Down Fast line. The planned dwell was reduced slightly, but with a crew change, it was still 11 minutes late departing. However, with the route set onto the fast, several following trains were delayed as they were impeded by 9J54 and then each other in turn, these being:

1S30 1830 King's Cross - Edinburgh departed KGX right time, but 5 minutes late by WGC - it regained right time by Darlington.
1D28 1833 King's Cross - Bradford Interchange departed KGX right time, but 5 minutes late by Stevenage - back to 1 minute late by Doncaster, but delayed again subsequently.
1P54 1836 King's Cross - Peterborough departed KGX right time, but 5 minutes late by Stevenage - the time was not regained.
because this was slow to clear the next train through the core was delayed leaving Finsbury Park...
9S48 1708 Brighton - Cambridge, arrived 1842 but did not get the road to leave until 1845, 3 minutes late - still two minutes late at Cambridge.
2Y48 1836 King's Cross - WGC delayed awaiting the platform behind 9S48 and was 4 minutes late leaving, subsequently further delayed in separate incident (see below).
1T54 1842 King's Cross - Kings Lynn, slowed on approach to Finsbury Park and 3 minutes late by Stevenage, this regained right time by Cambridge North.
1H06 1848 London King's Cross to Beverley appears to have been the first train to still be right time by the Welwyn Viaduct, but was delayed there because...

...the train that holding 9J54 in the first place was intended to keep on time, 2C48 was then held at the back of the queue across Digswell viaduct to Welwyn North but ran in front of 1H06. 2C48 was 3 minutes late from Welwyn North and the delay was not regained. Finally the delay stops propagating with 1R54, the 1854 King's Cross - Baldock past Welwyn North on time, 5 minutes behind 1H06. 9J54 itself regained some of the lost time and was 4 minutes late at Peterborough. I don't know if any other trains were affected by the late running trains at Peterborough or further north from there.

No train was significantly delayed, but the above trains would in total account for 3,000 or more passengers. The signaller had two ways they could have avoided the delay spreading. 9J54 could have been routed ahead of 2C48 on the down slow. In which case it would have arrived say 1827 and departed 1828, this would have caused slight impedance to 1R52 1824 King's Cross to Royston and possibly 1S30 scheduled six minutes behind that (as 1R52 stops at Welwyn North). Alternatively, it could have been crossed to the down fast line at Copenhagen Junction. That would probably have been the better option as it would have been likely to have a shorter dwell as the platform is less crowded (less likely to impede 1R52) and the train could accelerate straight from the platform (5) without the low speed turnout from the down slow platform (7) to the down fast line. In both cases, although it would have not had a four minute stand, 2C48 would almost certainly still have had a right time departure (and with me on it)...

...As it was I ended up on 2Y48 to WGC, which was delayed further by door problems at New Southgate (driver unable to release) which added eight more minutes to the delay and which delayed further trains (I won't list these as I'm sure anyone still reading is losing the will to live by now). 29 minutes late home.

 

[OwenB]

It will happen, but when? In the coming weeks or in time for the December update?

Today has been a good day so far. PPM as at 1320 is 88% on time, 10% late and 2% very late or cancelled.

That's 1374 trains so far with 29 very late or cancelled. 1220 on time.

The weekend service is embarrassing frequency-wise under the new timetable. Surely, new services should be run sooner rather than later. Or is all the drivers' time dedicated to training now and for the foreseeable future?

 

[Failed Unit]

The weekend service is embarrassing frequency-wise under the new timetable. Surely, new services should be run sooner rather than later. Or is all the drivers' time dedicated to training now and for the foreseeable future?

Agreed. Yes it is better on great northern than last week but still absolutely nothing to be proud of. Still lots of skip stopping resulting in big gaps. This is the worse timetable (frequency wise) since BR. The weekend is truely pathetic.

Definitely we should not celebrate this. Just be thankful it wasn’t as bad as the past. When the frequency all day to all stations at least equals pre-May then it may be worth celebrating.

 

[infobleep]

Not doing brilliantly on routes via East Croydon tonight. At least a couple of East Grinstead services cancelled due to lack of driver resources, plus 700136 was a very naughty train and sat down on the Up Slow south of Purley for some time (just terminated and now ECS).

There was a train sat on platform 5 at East Croydon causing that platform to be blocked. An East Grinstead train I was on ended up being delayed as it had to wait for platform 6 to be free. It had been showing as departing East Croydon on time too but alas it couldn't manage it.

 

[talldave]

Any idea why both Southbound and Northbound services at Redhill use platform 2 whilst platform 3 remains empty? My service today had to wait outside the station whilst a train in the opposite direction cleared the platform.

 

[JonathanH]

Any idea why both Southbound and Northbound services at Redhill use platform 2 whilst platform 3 remains empty? My service today had to wait outside the station whilst a train in the opposite direction cleared the platform.

The only reason it would be scheduled to happen is because there are two southbound arrivals within a very short time of each other or a train is scheduled to stay in platform 3 longer than usual. Looks as if the only booked workings (other than overnight when it saves sending a dispatcher over to platform 3) are:

1R14 0839 London Victoria to Reigate (which is very closely followed by 9R07 0744 Flitwick to Three Bridges)
and
9R35 1435 Bedford to Gatwick Airport (which closely follows 1R42 1539 London Victoria to Reigate that is affected by the off-pattern 2A45 1547 Tonbridge to Redhill)

 

[Bikeman78]

Any idea why both Southbound and Northbound services at Redhill use platform 2 whilst platform 3 remains empty? My service today had to wait outside the station whilst a train in the opposite direction cleared the platform.

What time was this? Very few down trains are booked to use platform 2. Use of platform 0 off peak appears to be random.

 

[talldave]

What time was this? Very few down trains are booked to use platform 2. Use of platform 0 off peak appears to be random.

It was 16.25 & 16.29.

 

[infobleep]

A Horsham to Bedford train was terminated at East Croydon today due to no crew to take it onwards so it blocked platform 2. It was the 7.04

The 7.43 from Gatwick Airport to Peterborough was 20 minutes late so had all its stops cancelled to East Croydon. Still it's not as if passengers want to travel to Redhill or even from Redhill. When I first looked it was only 5 minutes late.

That was due to an object hitting the overhead wire.

In contrast the 5.54 Cambridge to Brighton service left 35 minutes late and had no stops removed.

There was a tree blocking the railway which lead to the cancellation of a Bedford to Gatwick Airport fast Thameslink.

All of this resulted in the usual delays around East Croydon. I was on a train that was on time until it reached Purley. Then it was 4 minutes late. At East Croydon 8 minutes late. Then a later train to Victoria, which was meant to leave 2nd, left at the same time and to ensure it was clear of platform 1, given platform 2 was blocked, was pathed in front of our train. Cue another 2 minutes delay.

Most of this wasn't caused by the new timetable however.

So on the basis of that, the new emergency timetable is working but the problems that occurred prior to it have not gone away and it's probably impossible for them to do so, as it's a busy commuter route. I did think there was less commuters today, although not on the delayed 8.04 from East Croydon, as it was standing room only if your got on.

 

[Saint66]

A tree fell on the OHLE between Radlet and St Albans and then reportedly caught fire. NR on site but sounds like there's going to have to be some repairs.

No rest for the wicked on Thameslink!

 

[jon0844]

A tree fell on the OHLE between Radlet and St Albans and then reportedly caught fire. NR on site but sounds like there's going to have to be some repairs.

No rest for the wicked on Thameslink!

Buses that were on standby for the GN side have been moved there, meaning that if anything goes wrong on the ECML....

So far on GTR, PPM is at 92% on time, 7% late and 1% very late or cancelled. That's on 379 trains so far, so early days.

GN Outers 80/15/5%, GN Inners 92/4/4%. TL Kent Outer 100% (2 trains!).

 

[OwenB]

Buses that were on standby for the GN side have been moved there, meaning that if anything goes wrong on the ECML....

So far on GTR, PPM is at 92% on time, 7% late and 1% very late or cancelled. That's on 379 trains so far, so early days.

GN Outers 80/15/5%, GN Inners 92/4/4%. TL Kent Outer 100% (2 trains!).

Mine's stuck on 08:01. Just me?

 

[gallafent]

Mine's stuck on 08:01. Just me?

Same from here. Quite often seems to get “stuck” in this way in my experience!

 

[Minstral25]

A tree fell on the OHLE between Radlet and St Albans and then reportedly caught fire. NR on site but sounds like there's going to have to be some repairs.

No rest for the wicked on Thameslink!

This has resulted in half the Redhill and Horley services (both to London and Gatwick) being cancelled and the entire rail service to Earlswood and Salfords being cancelled for the last three hours and more - no replacement buses or trains put in place

So much for delays in Third Rail Land messing up the service North of the River - can you please get your knitting fixed so we can have a train service

 

[jon0844]

Mine's stuck on 08:01. Just me?

Yes. That explains why the train numbers were so low.

There was a trespass incident on the ECML earlier at WGC and the tree at SAC, so I expect the figures will fall when the next update comes..

 

[infobleep]

This has resulted in half the Redhill and Horley services (both to London and Gatwick) being cancelled and the entire rail service to Earlswood and Salfords being cancelled for the last three hours and more - no replacement buses or trains put in place

So much for delays in Third Rail Land messing up the service North of the River - can you please get your knitting fixed so we can have a train service

If only it were practical to move the buses north of the river to the south.

 

[jon0844]

If only it were practical to move the buses north of the river to the south.

Many buses moved today to help shuttle people between St Albans and Hatfield couldn't go to London because they weren't compliant for the London controlled emissions zone.

 

[OwenB]

Govia statement says that they're running '200 extra trains each weekday across the network compared to the period prior to the introduction of the May timetable.'

Can that be true?

Source: Tom Edwards at the BBC: https://twitter.com/BBCTomEdwards/status/1020320918789394432