Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[jon0844]

This is spot on. I simply cannot see how they will ever get 24 tph through the core in the peaks. Go to St Pancras northbound platform around 17:30 and you'll understand what I mean. It's taking well over a minute to dispatch trains with the constant 'stand behind the yellow line' announcements before they will start dispatch.

The driver dispatches him/herself on the TL side so the safety messages and whistle blowing isn't connected. The trains should go on time when ahead of schedule, or as soon as is safe when late. The platform staff are there to assist but can't delay things.

Meanwhile there was an ADD activation on a train at Hatfield not so long ago.

 

[Hadders]

We don't know how much of that can be attributed to the fact that the services run through the core, rather than problems specific to the GN route, plus the driver shortage issue.

If it's a driver issue it's likely to result in a cancellation rather than late running. The late running is highly likely to be a result of delays south of the core, or getting caught up behind a late running train in front.

Just for old times sake here's the performance in the last week of the old timetable between Kings Cross and Stevenage. There was a major incident on the 16th which is a shame as it's a pretty much impeccable performance. What we'd give to have this back....

 

[Hadders]

The driver dispatches him/herself on the TL side so the safety messages and whistle blowing isn't connected. The trains should go on time when ahead of schedule, or as soon as is safe when late. The platform staff are there to assist but can't delay things.

Meanwhile there was an ADD activation on a train at Hatfield not so long ago.

Whatever the dispatch arrangements it still seems to take far too long.

 

[BRX]

If it's a driver issue it's likely to result in a cancellation rather than late running. The late running is highly likely to be a result of delays south of the core, or getting caught up behind a late running train in front.

It's not as simple as that though is it? Is it not the case that cancellations due to driver shortages lead to changes to stopping patterns which then lead on to delays. And has the problem of drivers being late to meet trains at Finsbury Park and so on now ceased?

 

[MML]

GTR bosses are still lying to the public and parliamentary select committee. And doing so by spinning half truths.
They maintain the reason for the failure of the timetable on 20th May was due to:
(a) delayed infrastructure work by NR - not the case with GTR - although it is the case with Northern.
(b) late confirmation of the timetable by Network Rail which led to delayed and inefficient rostering.
While the timetable meltdown with huge numbers of cancellations in the initial weeks was partially due to inefficient rostering and pairing of drivers with train diagrams, this only excuses the last minute cancellations.

The reason GTR cannot run anything more than a reduced temporary timetable and a significantly depleted weekend timetable is simply they do not have sufficient drivers to cover training, nor sufficient drivers with the required route knowledge, nor drivers based in the correct locations for the newly created diagrams. It is for these reasons why nearly 3 months later, they are still unable to fully deliver the timetable which was planned for 20th May.
15-20 minute gaps in service through the core illustrate what a reduction in service has been necessary to cover this shortfall.

 

[BRX]

I make no claim to look at it with an expert eye but looking at evening peak through the core, it doesn't look like any kind of chaos. I don't see evidence that when one train is late or out of sequence, there are multiple services behind it that take on a delay. Whatever the reasons for cancellations, or services arriving at the core out of schedule, it appears to run relatively smoothly and cope with these things. Of course, it's not yet running at or close to 24tph.



Compare with the mess that undoubtedly existed in the weeks immediately after the new timetable was brought in -

 

[NorthKent1989]

Yes it's really annoying how the SE timetable has been butchered for these Thameslink trains that were never part of the original plan, only for GTR to not run them

Indeed.

Its all good saying there are new journey opportunities between north and south of the river, however is it really worth it if you have to wait two hours for a direct train when all you have to do is board a London Bridge train and change?, because that's been the extreme case at times at the moment its 1tph, hard to see the real benefits if we're still waiting to see them, three months on.....

As for the SE timetable being butchered, that's one way of describing it, who's idea was it that 2 semi fasts should start at Gravesend, a possible London Overground and Crossrail terminal I might add, yet the Thameslink should call every single stop to Medway which is further out and not likely to see a TfL roundel at any of its stations any decade soon, and that's just one of many issues.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I'm not familiar with the GN side of things but it seems to be a rough deal and you have every right to be p*ed off, especially since we are now in August.

A friend of mine had to visit Cambridge the other day and gambled by going on the Thameslink, she lives in Hither Green, she got a Thameslink train from LB as far as Finsbury Park and well you GN folk should know the story by now, she ended stuck at FP for thirty mins before getting a tube to Liverpool Street and got the Abellio via Tottenham and Cheshunt to Cambridge service, on te return trip she went into Liverpool Street rather than gamble on GTR.

 

[Failed Unit]

They still get the very basics wrong.

They are tweeting a link to check services over the bank holiday weekend.

Click the link an enhanced Saturday service.

Knowing that a Saturday service is just 1 TPH check the journey planner. A full Monday service comes back.

Challenge the twitter team. They come back with the timetable is not yet loaded.

So 2 weeks to go and they haven’t loaded the timetable but they are telling people to plan journeys on information they know is incorrect. Only GTR.....

 

[Hadders]

I make no claim to look at it with an expert eye but looking at evening peak through the core, it doesn't look like any kind of chaos.

I'd be interested to see the northbound figures, the ones quoted are the southbound ones, i.e those coming off the GN and MML rather than those heading to it.

 

[notverydeep]

I make no claim to look at it with an expert eye but looking at evening peak through the core, it doesn't look like any kind of chaos. I don't see evidence that when one train is late or out of sequence, there are multiple services behind it that take on a delay. Whatever the reasons for cancellations, or services arriving at the core out of schedule, it appears to run relatively smoothly and cope with these things. Of course, it's not yet running at or close to 24tph.

View attachment 51029

Compare with the mess that undoubtedly existed in the weeks immediately after the new timetable was brought in -

View attachment 51030

With only 18 tph, capacity through the core is not constraining the service and late trains do not often have to wait more than a couple of minutes for a path when out of turn. These services do however still transmit lateness from one leg of the service to another and this will delay many more services in areas that are capacity constrained at peak times, such as through Finsbury Park, Digswell Viaduct, the slow lines from Alexandra Palace to Welwyn Garden City and the line from Hitchin to Cambridge on GN. I presume that this is also happening at various locations on the Brighton Mainline, such as Windmill Bridge Junction. While only 3 tph go through the core, 7 out of 8 tph that will go through in the final 24 tph service do already run on GN itself.

One example of how this occurs is train 9J54, 1655 Horsham to Peterborough. This often picks up 3 or 4 minutes of delay between Purley and East Croydon goes through the core 6 or 7 minutes late and then holds up several LNER and GN services as it passes through Finsbury Park and Crosses Digswell Viaduct. As the core service ramps up, the opportunities for such cross contamination only increase. It is also noticeable in the recent figures how a few services are repeat offenders with some lateness on most days. When they get the basics of route training and coverage right, GTR will need to star focusing on some of theses...

 

[infobleep]

GTR bosses are still lying to the public and parliamentary select committee. And doing so by spinning half truths.
They maintain the reason for the failure of the timetable on 20th May was due to:
(a) delayed infrastructure work by NR - not the case with GTR - although it is the case with Northern.
(b) late confirmation of the timetable by Network Rail which led to delayed and inefficient rostering.
While the timetable meltdown with huge numbers of cancellations in the initial weeks was partially due to inefficient rostering and pairing of drivers with train diagrams, this only excuses the last minute cancellations.

The reason GTR cannot run anything more than a reduced temporary timetable and a significantly depleted weekend timetable is simply they do not have sufficient drivers to cover training, nor sufficient drivers with the required route knowledge, nor drivers based in the correct locations for the newly created diagrams. It is for these reasons why nearly 3 months later, they are still unable to fully deliver the timetable which was planned for 20th May.
15-20 minute gaps in service through the core illustrate what a reduction in service has been necessary to cover this shortfall.

If they are lying then parliament should recall them after the recess.

 

[infobleep]

The railway is not there for a small section of people who commute each day. The railway connects the country together and people use if for many reasons. It is the selfish nature of some that they don't see it as something there for everyone to use. It also has nothing to do with holidays or Gatwick for me. I live too close to the M25 for me to consider anything other than a car for that trip.

It has also connected me work wise. Instead of a very broken journey with various changes it has given me an option of a single service home. That flexibility of the railway to provide both a work and leisure link is what makes it great.

The opportunity that the new link between North and South London is something that can be very advantageous. It gives people an option that wasn't there before. For me certainly the Railway is more about leisure but I am not so insular not to understand the issues it is currently going through.

In certain part of the country, at certain times of the day, the railway seems to be solely for commuters, as there isn't the infrastructure to allow it to do much else. I'm talking about all the trains that go into and out of Waterloo in the morning and evening peaks.

Obviously outside of that time they can have a railway for leisure use but only where it fits in with the peak travel by commuters.

 

[uglymonkey]

Its extremely expensive for leisure travel as well - well unless you book a long time in advance - walk on fares are crazy long distance.

 

[BRX]

I'd be interested to see the northbound figures, the ones quoted are the southbound ones, i.e those coming off the GN and MML rather than those heading to it.

I'd say they look fairly similar northbound.

 

[BelleIsle]

indeed the whole track layout at Bedford is dire, dating from a time a considerably lesser service than today, yet little has been done to the layout to prepare for Thameslink.

Big things were planned for Bedford including new platforms to allow more trains to be turned around. However, it is on indefinite hiatus due to matters such as where to put the platforms for East-West Rail, alledged arguments between Network Rail and the council over who pays for public realm improvements etc.

 

[uglymonkey]

Thru the core might be OK statistics wise, but further out on GN, it more often than not turns to chaos, particularly on the Hitchin- Cambridge branch with only 2 tracks and no passing places.

 

[OwenB]

Also it's quite easy to forget quite how many services have been taken out of the timetable.

 

[Failed Unit]

It does make me wonder what will happen if the full timetable runs and everything has 9xxx headcodes.

You get a Cambridge to Mainstone service running on time and a Peterborough - Horsham running late. Do they let the Maidstone go as it is on time and further delay the Horsham? Do the key make the Maidstone wait. Making the Maidstone wait seems most sensible but now it is stuck behind a stopping Moorgate service all the way to Finsbury Park. What was ontime out of Knebworth is 15 minutes late.

Feel sorry for the signallers. Let’s say they also hold the Moorgate now we are 2 trains late, 3 when you think because of the short dwell at Moorgate it will almost certainly be late out. Delays snowballing rapidly. Quick let’s skip stop.

 

[hwl]

It does make me wonder what will happen if the full timetable runs and everything has 9xxx headcodes.

You get a Cambridge to Mainstone service running on time and a Peterborough - Horsham running late. Do they let the Maidstone go as it is on time and further delay the Horsham? Do the key make the Maidstone wait. Making the Maidstone wait seems most sensible but now it is stuck behind a stopping Moorgate service all the way to Finsbury Park. What was ontime out of Knebworth is 15 minutes late.

Feel sorry for the signallers. Let’s say they also hold the Moorgate now we are 2 trains late, 3 when you think because of the short dwell at Moorgate it will almost certainly be late out. Delays snowballing rapidly. Quick let’s skip stop.

You get the feeling that there wasn't time before hand to think up solutions all the scenarios but some of the improvement has come from learning the hard way.

A bit more lively performance from 717s (vs 313s) might also help matters.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The railway is not there for a small section of people who commute each day. The railway connects the country together and people use if for many reasons. It is the selfish nature of some that they don't see it as something there for everyone to use. It also has nothing to do with holidays or Gatwick for me. I live too close to the M25 for me to consider anything other than a car for that trip.

It has also connected me work wise. Instead of a very broken journey with various changes it has given me an option of a single service home. That flexibility of the railway to provide both a work and leisure link is what makes it great.

The opportunity that the new link between North and South London is something that can be very advantageous. It gives people an option that wasn't there before. For me certainly the Railway is more about leisure but I am not so insular not to understand the issues it is currently going through.

But some people are now getting a broken journey, Greenwich Line commuters have now been permanently severed from direct access to the West End because of the changes in the London Bridge approach, now at sometimes the service is basically 4tph because of the gaps in the Medway service, no Saturday service at times so no real leisure travellers there, how can people see the benefits when we’re three months in and there are still issues, it a bit hard to expect people in the worst effected areas to see the benefits when all they want to do is get a train from Cambridge to Kings Cross or Higham to Greenwich and they can’t even do that on a regular basis.

 

[SPADTrap]

Whatever the dispatch arrangements it still seems to take far too long.

A minute is far too long? Back to earth with you man!

 

[ComUtoR]

Some diagrams have a 4 minute dwell at St Pancras and we get there early

 

[Steve Harris]

Apparently Thameslink was fun last night.

A work colleague was coming back from London St Pancras at 22.30 (hoping to catch the 22.45 Peterborough).
Power supply was cut south of the station and nothing ran for about 10 mins before southbound was running again. Nothing was running northbound for nearly half an hour though. Luckily he headed to Kings Cross for the 23.06.

Good thing i had primed him about the game of St Pancras, Kings Cross roulette as the 22.45 was capped at London Bridge!

 

[bramling]

It does make me wonder what will happen if the full timetable runs and everything has 9xxx headcodes.

Quite. The class 9 numbers seem to be banded about as a solution to all evils, yet no one has yet given a realistic answer to the fact that once everything has these numbers then they're as much use as an electric lamp in a power cut.

In the KX PSB area there will typically be something in the region of 10 to 20 class 9s running around at the same time, so clashes are inevitable.

 

[infobleep]

Apparently Thameslink was fun last night.

A work colleague was coming back from London St Pancras at 22.30 (hoping to catch the 22.45 Peterborough).
Power supply was cut south of the station and nothing ran for about 10 mins before southbound was running again. Nothing was running northbound for nearly half an hour though. Luckily he headed to Kings Cross for the 23.06.

Good thing i had primed him about the game of St Pancras, Kings Cross roulette as the 22.45 was capped at London Bridge!

That reminds me of the Manchester London Road (now Manchester Piccadilly) and Mancaster Mayfield. Most trains arrived and departed from London Road but in the 50s a few still arrived or departed from Mayfield instead. They are close to one another but it would still take time to go from one to the other if you ended up in the wrong one.

 

[jon0844]

Quite. The class 9 numbers seem to be banded about as a solution to all evils, yet no one has yet given a realistic answer to the fact that once everything has these numbers then they're as much use as an electric lamp in a power cut.

In the KX PSB area there will typically be something in the region of 10 to 20 class 9s running around at the same time, so clashes are inevitable.

They'll be surely treated on a first come, first served basis where required? It's only services going through the core so on the ECML you'll still have plenty of other non-9 class trains. If things get real bad, it's going to be a mess regardless.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

What are people's views on peak loadings ? - yes I am aware it is high Summer holiday period.

I keep stumbling on the "Thameslink Express"- xx21 or xx51 off St Pancras - the 1621 today was far from busy - light green and left SAC with shed loads of empty seats. The 2 preceding trains - a slow Luton and a semi-fast St Albans had acres of space - in the past , the % decline in commuters was happily filled by day out etc traffic.

Even an hour later it is not the crush of old.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

In the future, the Traffic Management System, or at least the sorts I have seen, will seek to create all sorts of projections for the train and afford the Signaller the best choice at any one time. If a 'stopper' from Cambridge to Maidstone is hitting Woolmer Green about the same time (or likely will) as a Peterborough to Horsham then it might advise the Signaller to send the Horsham onto the fast line at Hitchin and will also update the platform workings at Kings Cross of any following trains such as LNER or GN Kings Lynn services.

Here's hoping it all eventually works itself out. *Doesn't hold out much hope*

 

[Sunset route]

Quite. The class 9 numbers seem to be banded about as a solution to all evils, yet no one has yet given a realistic answer to the fact that once everything has these numbers then they're as much use as an electric lamp in a power cut.

In the KX PSB area there will typically be something in the region of 10 to 20 class 9s running around at the same time, so clashes are inevitable.

We are already getting class 9 blindness in the Norwood Junction area with all the London Overground and Thameslink services running as such and this is even with the reduced service that’s currently runnning. In fact the trains that now stand out are the 1Exx Uckfield’s, 1Pxx Caterhams/Tottenham’s 1Kxx Epsom’s. When a class 9 TL gets diverted on to the slows it’s a job to spot them from the ARLs and not send then to West Croydon.