Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[bramling]

The thing I don't quite understand is all the folk meeting passengers off a GTR service that haven't checked to see if it is on time before setting out! Wait at home in front of the fire with a dog curled up at your feet and a good book or three.

Would that life be that simple! Using a local example, a lot of down trains pick up delays in the Woolmer Green to Hitchin area, so the train can be perfectly on time to Stevenage, then get stuck in blocking back through the single down platform at Hitchin, particularly if there's late runners from the core. This is quite a routine experience - so someone could quite conceivably text at Knebworth (8 minutes away), and then find themselves taking over 20 minutes to reach Hitchin.

 

[Bald Rick]

The thing I don't quite understand is all the folk meeting passengers off a GTR service that haven't checked to see if it is on time before setting out! Wait at home in front of the fire with a dog curled up at your feet and a good book or three.

I’m just amazed at the novel subject of being picked up at the station. If I ask my Mrs to pick me up I get told in no uncertain terms to walk the 2 miles!

I do have sympathy with the principle. Same applies at most airports as well.

 

[Bald Rick]

EDIT: Double post, problem between keyboard and seat.

 

[bramling]

I’m just amazed at the novel subject of being picked up at the station. If I ask my Mrs to pick me up I get told in no uncertain terms to walk the 2 miles!

I do have sympathy with the principle. Same applies at most airports as well.

I must admit I don't totally get it either. One night when I happened to get off the same train as my neighbour, he asked if I wanted to share the cost of a taxi, to which I politely declined. I actually walked it quicker than it took his taxi!

However people do get picked up, in quite large numbers, particularly in the evening. I can certainly understand why people on their own, particularly women, might want to be picked up during the evening.

For those of us who do walk, we get caught in the crossfire, having to negotiate a station approach with cars parked in problematic places and doing odd manoeuvres in order to avoid driving into the ANPR area. It's not unique to GTR - High Barnet has been chaotic since ANPR was brought in there a year or so ago, it doesn't help that some of the parking contractors seem to be a law un to themselves at times.

 

[Bald Rick]

I must admit I don't totally get it either. One night when I happened to get off the same train as my neighbour, he asked if I wanted to share the cost of a taxi, to which I politely declined. I actually walked it quicker than it took his taxi!

However people do get picked up, in quite large numbers, particularly in the evening. I can certainly understand why people on their own, particularly women, might want to be picked up during the evening.

For those of us who do walk, we get caught in the crossfire, having to negotiate a station approach with cars parked in problematic places and doing odd manoeuvres in order to avoid driving into the ANPR area. It's not unique to GTR - High Barnet has been chaotic since ANPR was brought in there a year or so ago, it doesn't help that some of the parking contractors seem to be a law un to themselves at times.

It’s not an ANPR thing, but in St Albans you’ll be lucky to find any unrestricted on street free parking within a kilometre of the station after 0730.

 

[bramling]

It’s not an ANPR thing, but in St Albans you’ll be lucky to find any unrestricted on street free parking within a kilometre of the station after 0730.

St Albans is in a uniquely bad location for a station - poor for those accessing by road, and enough of a walk from the city centre to be a pain. It’s only really convenient for those who live within walking distance in the housing mainly to the east of it.

Hitchin is actually little better by road, although it’s not too bad on foot. There isn’t anywhere good to park outside the station frontage, barring a residential road which has parking restrictions (though not in the evening) and which is a bit of a pain to reach both by road and by foot from the station - plus involving walking through a dingy alley where undesirables sometimes hang out. Apart from that one is limited to parking on a main road where you’re likely to get your wing mirror bashed off, or a fair walk which is also not particularly pleasant.

Letchworth isn’t much better at certain times, although there is on-street parking in the evening within a couple of minutes. Stevenage has Tesco car park which is quite a way and involves steps and an awkward road crossing, or the infamous leisure park which I’m given to believe has its own parking enforcement although seemingly only if you leave your vehicle unattended.

The new setup at Hitchin is frustrating as there’s *ample* space in the evening, just that people quite reasonably don’t expect to have to pay just for picking someone up.

 

[Bald Rick]

St Albans is in a uniquely bad location for a station - poor for those accessing by road, and enough of a walk from the city centre to be a pain. It’s only really convenient for those who live within walking distance in the housing mainly to the east of it.

Hitchin is actually little better by road, although it’s not too bad on foot. There isn’t anywhere good to park outside the station frontage, barring a residential road which has parking restrictions (though not in the evening) and which is a bit of a pain to reach both by road and by foot from the station - plus involving walking through a dingy alley where undesirables sometimes hang out. Apart from that one is limited to parking on a main road where you’re likely to get your wing mirror bashed off, or a fair walk which is also not particularly pleasant.

Letchworth isn’t much better at certain times, although there is on-street parking in the evening within a couple of minutes. Stevenage has Tesco car park which is quite a way and involves steps and an awkward road crossing, or the infamous leisure park which I’m given to believe has its own parking enforcement although seemingly only if you leave your vehicle unattended.

The new setup at Hitchin is frustrating as there’s *ample* space in the evening, just that people quite reasonably don’t expect to have to pay just for picking someone up.

I’d say that Corrour is at least as bad as St Albans for station access. Last time I was there I had to walk 16 miles and over some big hills to get to it!

The good thing about the location of St Albans City is that it does encourage people to walk or cycle. Particularly as the traffic out of the station in the evening is universally horrendous. Of all the people I know who use the train regularly, only one drives, and that is because he usually has child care duties to attend to. I’m told that StAlbans has the second most cycle spaces of any station other than Cambridge (although I can’t quite believe it), and they are well used. Also people do walk long distances - I do 2 miles each way and I am by no means alone in doing that. I suspect that most of the drivers are coming from the very outskirts, and then the surrounding villages / settlements - Sandridge, Wheato, the Colneys, Napsbury and Park St.

Re Stevenage Leisure centre - yes they have enforcement, of which I have fallen foul.

 

[bramling]

I’d say that Corrour is at least as bad as St Albans for station access. Last time I was there I had to walk 16 miles and over som beige hills to get to it!

The good thing about the location of St Albans City is that it does encourage people to walk or cycle. Particularly as the traffic out of the station in the evening is universally horrendous. Of all the people I know who use the train regularly, only one drives, and that is because he usually has child care duties to attend to. I’m told that StAlbans has the second most cycle spaces of any station other than Cambridge (although I can’t quite believe it), and they are well used. Also people do walk long distances - I do 2 miles each way and I am by no means alone in doing that. I suspect that most of the drivers are coming from the very outskirts, and then the surrounding villages / settlements - Sandridge, Wheato, the Colneys, Napsbury and Park St.

Re Stevenage Leisure centre - yes they have enforcement, of which I have fallen foul.

Fair point about Currour! And perhaps Berney Arms and a few others too.

Straying slightly OT but I’m always mildly surprised there’s never been an attempt to build a station somewhere around the Sandridge Road area of St Albans. It would serve a catchment area
as well as having a base of its own. Would have been no use to me in my time though!

 

[Bald Rick]

Fair point about Currour! And perhaps Berney Arms and a few others too.

Straying slightly OT but I’m always mildly surprised there’s never been an attempt to build a station somewhere around the Sandridge Road area of St Albans. It would serve a catchment area
as well as having a base of its own. Would have been no use to me in my time though!

It wouldn’t increase revenue though. No one would use it specifically to go to St Albans because it would take almost as long to walk into town from the station as it would to walk from such a new station. And the Albanistas who need to get to London already use the train, so they would just transfer. AND it would cause the loss of some car park revenue. And not all the Fasts would stop, so the service wouldn’t be so good.

Personally, yes it would save me shoe leather, but I’d also get fat.

 

[Hadders]

Re Stevenage Leisure centre - yes they have enforcement, of which I have fallen foul.

Falling foul of that is almost a right of passage! This is the car park that made it into the Daily Mail a few years back when they clamped 200 cars in one day.

Seriously, they really should turn part of it into an enlarged station car park as it's empty during the day but I believe there's a planning restriction on the land which means it can't be done.

 

[Saint66]

I’d say that Corrour is at least as bad as St Albans for station access. Last time I was there I had to walk 16 miles and over some big hills to get to it!

The good thing about the location of St Albans City is that it does encourage people to walk or cycle. Particularly as the traffic out of the station in the evening is universally horrendous. Of all the people I know who use the train regularly, only one drives, and that is because he usually has child care duties to attend to. I’m told that StAlbans has the second most cycle spaces of any station other than Cambridge (although I can’t quite believe it), and they are well used. Also people do walk long distances - I do 2 miles each way and I am by no means alone in doing that. I suspect that most of the drivers are coming from the very outskirts, and then the surrounding villages / settlements - Sandridge, Wheato, the Colneys, Napsbury and Park St.

Re Stevenage Leisure centre - yes they have enforcement, of which I have fallen foul.

Agreed, most people I know in St Albans will walk or cycle to the station, not just those who live to the east. Finding people who actually drive to the station is very rare these days, as it just isn't worth the hassle of dealing with the ever worsening traffic in and around the City centre.

 

[Bald Rick]

Agreed, most people I know in St Albans will walk or cycle to the station, not just those who live to the east. Finding people who actually drive to the station is very rare these days, as it just isn't worth the hassle of dealing with the ever worsening traffic in and around the City centre.

And £8 a day saving in the car park machine is a useful incentive. I’ve saved about £20k in the last decade or so since I started walking, including the marginal cost of motoring. To be frank I don’t understand why anyone drives to any station where parking is not free if they live less than 2 miles away and there’s a pavement on the route.

 

[Kite159]

Having the ANPR scammers in place, ready to catch anybody daring to park longer to issue parking tickets by post will only mean those picking folk up will park elsewhere, ready to get a phonecall when the train is near by.

The end of the day it be a money spinner not car park management.

 

[bramling]

Falling foul of that is almost a right of passage! This is the car park that made it into the Daily Mail a few years back when they clamped 200 cars in one day.

Seriously, they really should turn part of it into an enlarged station car park as it's empty during the day but I believe there's a planning restriction on the land which means it can't be done.

The whole place is a scourge and should just be made into a station car park!

 

[bramling]

And £8 a day saving in the car park machine is a useful incentive. I’ve saved about £20k in the last decade or so since I started walking, including the marginal cost of motoring. To be frank I don’t understand why anyone drives to any station where parking is not free if they live less than 2 miles away and there’s a pavement on the route.

Simple answer for most people = time.

I’m fortunate in that I live just 7 minutes walk from the station. I simply wouldn’t want to do 40 minutes walk each way most days on account of the amount of my day this would take away from me. If I’m going to go for an exercise walk there’s generally more pleasant walks that one can do than alongside a main road to a station! (I also generally get a bit of walking at the London end, however this is different as so long as my phone is switched on I’m essentially getting paid for it!).

Having said that, I *would* cycle - but again this isn’t for everyone, and with roads being increasingly congested as pointed out elsewhere in the thread this introduces risks like that of accident as well of breathing in pollution - not to mention getting rained on some days of course. I’d still do it, but many wouldn’t.

I’ve already lost probably about 40 minutes a day thanks to the new Thameslink Programme timetable (okay a small proportion of that is volunatily fitting around the 365 services, but not all of it), so I wouldn’t want to lose any more spending time doing a long walk.

 

[samuelmorris]

Agreed with this, I live 32 minutes' walk from my station and I was OK to do that infrequently in the past but when it became regular (eventually daily) I started driving to the station, firstly because I could, I wasn't licensed until 2016, but secondly because doing that walk all day long wasn't very practical when spending a lot of the day on foot as well. Yes I concede it's lazy but at that sort of distance quite a lot of people would do the same. Initially the car park rate was fairly reasonable too at £5.00, it's now £6.20 which isn't horrendous. Nowadays that's payable by my employer as I only commute by rail to customer sites, so it's a no-brainer.

 

[jagardner1984]

I’d say that Corrour is at least as bad as St Albans for station access. Last time I was there I had to walk 16 miles and over some big hills to get to it!

The good thing about the location of St Albans City is that it does encourage people to walk or cycle. Particularly as the traffic out of the station in the evening is universally horrendous. Of all the people I know who use the train regularly, only one drives, and that is because he usually has child care duties to attend to. I’m told that StAlbans has the second most cycle spaces of any station other than Cambridge (although I can’t quite believe it), and they are well used. Also people do walk long distances - I do 2 miles each way and I am by no means alone in doing that. I suspect that most of the drivers are coming from the very outskirts, and then the surrounding villages / settlements - Sandridge, Wheato, the Colneys, Napsbury and Park St.

Re Stevenage Leisure centre - yes they have enforcement, of which I have fallen foul.

If ever there was a town in need of a good high quality free (for rail ticket holders) park and ride / guided bus service, it's St Albans. Its the sort of thing that for limited cost could buy GTR some much needed goodwill, as the traffic around the town is generally horrendous at commuter times, and a lot of it leads straight to St Albans City.

Given the huge settlements Thameslink services rush past on their way to and from the city station, I've always wondered whether St Albans would be an interesting test case for a tram/light rail route alongside the MML from a Platform 0, running a shuttle to and from the Marshalswick/Sandridge area in the north, and Tyttenhanger/London Colney in the south. Given the woeful state of local buses, I suspect it might do rather well ....

 

[AM9]

The last 30+ posts on this thread (supposedly) about "Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th", seem to have turned into a rant about car parking at various stations in Hertfordshire. Does that mean that the complainers are running out of things to say about the subject matter or is it just expanding hang-ups about GTR?

 

[Bald Rick]

The last 30+ posts on this thread (supposedly) about "Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th", seem to have turned into a rant about car parking at various stations in Hertfordshire. Does that mean that the complainers are running out of things to say about the subject matter or is it just expanding hang-ups about GTR?

You sussed my diversion plan

 

[Bald Rick]

Simple answer for most people = time.

I’m fortunate in that I live just 7 minutes walk from the station. I simply wouldn’t want to do 40 minutes walk each way most days on account of the amount of my day this would take away from me. If I’m going to go for an exercise walk there’s generally more pleasant walks that one can do than alongside a main road to a station! (I also generally get a bit of walking at the London end, however this is different as so long as my phone is switched on I’m essentially getting paid for it!).

Having said that, I *would* cycle - but again this isn’t for everyone, and with roads being increasingly congested as pointed out elsewhere in the thread this introduces risks like that of accident as well of breathing in pollution - not to mention getting rained on some days of course. I’d still do it, but many wouldn’t.

I’ve already lost probably about 40 minutes a day thanks to the new Thameslink Programme timetable (okay a small proportion of that is volunatily fitting around the 365 services, but not all of it), so I wouldn’t want to lose any more spending time doing a long walk.

My last post in this diverting topic... I get the time point. If I walk it takes 28 mins door to door, if I drive it’s 15 in the morning, 20 in the evening, some times longer. So I save around £10 day, but it costs me 21 minutes / day. But then I don’t need a gym membership either.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If ever there was a town in need of a good high quality free (for rail ticket holders) park and ride / guided bus service, it's St Albans. Its the sort of thing that for limited cost could buy GTR some much needed goodwill, as the traffic around the town is generally horrendous at commuter times, and a lot of it leads straight to St Albans City.

Given the huge settlements Thameslink services rush past on their way to and from the city station, I've always wondered whether St Albans would be an interesting test case for a tram/light rail route alongside the MML from a Platform 0, running a shuttle to and from the Marshalswick/Sandridge area in the north, and Tyttenhanger/London Colney in the south. Given the woeful state of local buses, I suspect it might do rather well ....

Well I spent over 25 years walking in all weathers to the City or Abbey station (the latter for 3+ years) , and it never killed me. Hardly ever defaulted to the bus or a lift. SA has a ridiculous car density - only controlled by congestion , and in an area where the bus services keep getting cut back on short term support issues , no chance of a light rail system. No cash and as Herts CC could not get their ct together to fund a simple loop and signaling on the branch line. I did read this week about Dunkerque , where the cash take on local buses was 10% of costs , and usage was low for the usual reasons , so they made it a free service with the result that patronage increased massively (and car use fell to a good extent) , sounds an excellent idea.

Anyway - back to the railway - the 150 year old railway through St Albans would originally have gone further east than today's alignemnent - following reviews the limits of deviation were changed to bring it nearer to the city centre , leading to the curved approach that it there today. Probably easier than moving the city to the railway.

As for GTR services , seems pretty OK Monday to Friday at least. Yes I do travel in the peaks , but not for work purposes.

 

[bramling]

The last 30+ posts on this thread (supposedly) about "Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th", seem to have turned into a rant about car parking at various stations in Hertfordshire. Does that mean that the complainers are running out of things to say about the subject matter or is it just expanding hang-ups about GTR?

Not at all. The Horsham service was screwed yesterday thanks to the Sandy fatality, and the northbound service was messed up the previous evening due to problems on the Brighton line. Neither of these negatives would have occurred hitherto. If you’d read the first part of the discussion about car parking you’d have seen that what kicked off the issue is people getting fined whilst picking people up from *delayed* trains..

(Oh, and my 365 service home two nights
ago was delayed for 10 minutes in the Stevenage/Hitchin area due to late running northbound ShamblesLink/ services. When I did alight the station staff were getting mobbed as a load of people had just been turfed off an Undesiro so it could run fast to Cambridge. So, no, all remains not well).

 

[AM9]

Not at all. The Horsham service was screwed yesterday thanks to the Sandy fatality, and the northbound service was messed up the previous evening due to problems on the Brighton line. Neither of these negatives would have occurred hitherto. If you’d read the first part of the discussion about car parking you’d have seen that what kicked off the issue is people getting fined whilst picking people up from *delayed* trains..

(Oh, and my 365 service home two nights
ago was delayed for 10 minutes in the Stevenage/Hitchin area due to late running northbound ShamblesLink/ services. When I did alight the station staff were getting mobbed as a load of people had just been turfed off an Undesiro so it could run fast to Cambridge. So, no, all remains not well).

Well the the first was a comment about picking up during delays, which then became almost exclusively about parking in Hitchin, Arlesley St Albans et al. But my point has been confirmed by Chief Planner who feels that things are improving. Stll, if you are inconvenienced by suicides on the railway, why not blame GTR. I assume that the "Sandy fatality" would have equally affected any service passing that point whether it was running a service to Horsham or Kings Cross and by any TOC, but maybe you see it as GTR's failing.

 

[AM9]

The thing I don't quite understand is all the folk meeting passengers off a GTR service that haven't checked to see if it is on time before setting out! Wait at home in front of the fire with a dog curled up at your feet and a good book or three.

Precisely! Most here know about Realtime Trains so can see how the service is actually doing or even speak to the person on the train. As the trains are getting more reliable lately, there should be less anyway.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Precisely! Most here know about Realtime Trains so can see how the service is actually doing or even speak to the person on the train. As the trains are getting more reliable lately, there should be less anyway.

Solidly robust on a good number of journeys recently (and off peak loadings seem to have bounced back) - having said that , there will now be some catastrophic delay incident.

Talking of the train services , I seem to turn up often (unplanned) for the late afternoon "Thameslink Express" from Farringdon - great trains for SAC / LTN and Bedford , and though clearly busy , not stupidly.

Always said the dream peak service would be a fast Luton starter - all to SAC then right away. (A semi-fast from further north would then give Luton and stations to Bedford a peak stop on a through service to West Hampstead , as this is quite a busy interchange from those to the north) 1 or 2 in the peak would be ideal ...

 

[bramling]

Well the the first was a comment about picking up during delays, which then became almost exclusively about parking in Hitchin, Arlesley St Albans et al. But my point has been confirmed by Chief Planner who feels that things are improving.

Ah so one opinion, from the Midland side, confirms all.

My last full week of GN side journeys (two weeks ago) was anything but reliable. I forget exactly, but there were cancellations, most trips arrived late to some degree, and in more than one instance the journey was crowded due to preceding services being delayed or cancelled. On one evening there had been IIRC a *two hour* gap in the up service along the Cambridge branch. That’s not good by any record, especially with only 3tph so far!

I wouldn't blame GTR for a suicide, however one can quite reasonably blame the Thameslink concept for transmitting such delays far wider than would otherwise have been the case. The GN was messed up on Monday evening thanks to the problems on the Brighton line, and passing through St Pancras early afternoon yesterday the departure board for the Horsham service read wall-to-wall cancelled. I'm sure the Southern commuters appreciated that.

It's also worth remembering that we don't have the full Thameslink Programme aspirational service. GN side was planned to have 6tph off-peak and 8tph peak, in each direction. In reality we have 3tph, with a number of these missing. The current service is erratic enough, and it has features which will be actually benefiting performance that the end-state service won't have, for example the current Cambridge North/Cambridge stopping service having 31-minute turnrounds at King's Cross during the daytime. If it's not working well now, which it isn't, then it's certainly only going to get worse. As I wrote above, we're still seeing two-hour gaps at times, and that's simply appalling even by your standards!

 

[ComUtoR]

Ah so one opinion, from the Midland side, confirms all.

+1 for the Kent side running beautifully.

 

[jagardner1984]

Well I spent over 25 years walking in all weathers to the City or Abbey station (the latter for 3+ years) , and it never killed me. Hardly ever defaulted to the bus or a lift. SA has a ridiculous car density - only controlled by congestion , and in an area where the bus services keep getting cut back on short term support issues , no chance of a light rail system. No cash and as Herts CC could not get their ct together to fund a simple loop and signaling on the branch line. I did read this week about Dunkerque , where the cash take on local buses was 10% of costs , and usage was low for the usual reasons , so they made it a free service with the result that patronage increased massively (and car use fell to a good extent) , sounds an excellent idea.

Anyway - back to the railway - the 150 year old railway through St Albans would originally have gone further east than today's alignemnent - following reviews the limits of deviation were changed to bring it nearer to the city centre , leading to the curved approach that it there today. Probably easier than moving the city to the railway.

As for GTR services , seems pretty OK Monday to Friday at least. Yes I do travel in the peaks , but not for work purposes.

Totally agree about congestion, and about criminally empty buses driving around. Nonetheless whilst active travel like you make should be encouraged, maybe even rewarded in some way, a viable alternative to the car should be provided for those who can’t or won’t, for whatever reason. The free feeder bus seems like an excellent idea.

It seems to me this is relevant to GTR’s timetabling woes, as most people’s journey continues in some form once they get off the train, and the impact on a city of a train service with wild variances in performance in streets lined with cars for a mile around, taxis and others waiting in crazily inappropriate places, and car parking insanely expensive. Reliability and consistency undoubtedly helps people plan their lives better.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

+1 for the Kent side running beautifully.

Any observations on loadings on the Catford loop ? - used to be awful with 2 tph and 4 car workings in the peak (thankfully a thing of the past)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Totally agree about congestion, and about criminally empty buses driving around. Nonetheless whilst active travel like you make should be encouraged, maybe even rewarded in some way, a viable alternative to the car should be provided for those who can’t or won’t, for whatever reason. The free feeder bus seems like an excellent idea.

It seems to me this is relevant to GTR’s timetabling woes, as most people’s journey continues in some form once they get off the train, and the impact on a city of a train service with wild variances in performance in streets lined with cars for a mile around, taxis and others waiting in crazily inappropriate places, and car parking insanely expensive. Reliability and consistency undoubtedly helps people plan their lives better.

A really easy "cure" would be to allow season ticket holders / Key holders , - free bus travel up to say 2 miles from SAC. Far too easy and probably too many vested interests in parking revenues etc. The bus services appear to have a good bit of spare (peak) capacity. Would IMHO make a dent in peak car traffic.