Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[jagardner1984]

A really easy "cure" would be to allow season ticket holders / Key holders , - free bus travel up to say 2 miles from SAC. Far too easy and probably too many vested interests in parking revenues etc. The bus services appear to have a good bit of spare (peak) capacity. Would IMHO make a dent in peak car traffic.

Nationally given how bus services (outside of London) are in big decline, and how heavily many bus services are subsidised, and the costs of congestion in health and economics, it seems giving season ticket holders PlusBus inclusive tickets would be an easy PR win that wouldn't cost anyone that much.

 

[ComUtoR]

Any observations on loadings on the Catford loop ? - used to be awful with 2 tph and 4 car workings in the peak (thankfully a thing of the past)

Its always been a busy line with the same old stations causing the same old problems. The new timings are the best change. It actually works (almost)

 

[bramling]

Precisely! Most here know about Realtime Trains so can see how the service is actually doing or even speak to the person on the train. As the trains are getting more reliable lately, there should be less anyway.

As posted elsewhere, one can't just always rely on that.

On Monday my down train ex KX was perfectly on time until the Stevenage area, then two late-running northbound Thameslink services were put in front of it. It was not uncommon pre-May to have blocking back through Hitchin on the down, now it happens more.

Not to mention that things can always go wrong at the last minute - not so long ago I got stuck for an hour between Stevenage and Hitchin due to a points failure - points stuck reverse against the train. As it happened the train was stuck at a signal in a mobile dead spot, so couldn't have phoned anyone. Another example was when a freight train broke down at Hitchin on the down, first of all the train sat at a signal for ages, then the decision was taken to run it fast to Biggleswade - again all happened having departed Stevenage right time.

I suppose you probably like the idea of ANPR in car parks because it punishes the commuters we know you despise!

 

[bramling]

A really easy "cure" would be to allow season ticket holders / Key holders , - free bus travel up to say 2 miles from SAC. Far too easy and probably too many vested interests in parking revenues etc. The bus services appear to have a good bit of spare (peak) capacity. Would IMHO make a dent in peak car traffic.

I suspect the taxi trade might have something to say about that, although I'm not sure they could actually do anything about it!

 

[MikeWM]

The last 30+ posts on this thread (supposedly) about "Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th", seem to have turned into a rant about car parking at various stations in Hertfordshire. Does that mean that the complainers are running out of things to say about the subject matter or is it just expanding hang-ups about GTR?

The service has gone from unpredictably disastrous to awful but fairly predictably so - an improvement, but still far from what would be expected. The latter is harder to post about continuously without being rather tedious, which probably explains the drop-off in posts.

For example, I could post every week about how what was a highly reliable, almost-always-punctual commuter train before May - is now consistently, reliably, late every day (last week : 11 late, 8 late, 13 late, 10 late, 5 late). But, rubbish as that is, it has become *predictably* bad.

Or I could post every week about how rubbish Saturday services are - fewer services between Cambridge to London than 20 years ago, despite the massive growth seen on the line in that time - but rubbish as that also is, it has also become *predictably* bad.

So yes, there's not much that can be said that isn't repetition of previous points. That doesn't mean things are going well!

 

[387star]

The december timetable boost with the two extra littlehamptons and twice hourly Cambridge to brighton has been postponed?
Those extra Cambridge services... do they exist at present? Presumably not as the kings cross 700s are the ones destined to Maidstone?

 

[bramling]

The december timetable boost with the two extra littlehamptons and twice hourly Cambridge to brighton has been postponed?
Those extra Cambridge services... do they exist at present? Presumably not as the kings cross 700s are the ones destined to Maidstone?

There’s currently a gap in the timetable where the second Cambridge/Brighton service would be. Its introduction would see a couple of consequential changes, namely the Stevenage 313 service cut back to Watton-at-Stone, and I believe the Royston 365 services cut back to Baldock (although I’m not totally certain on that as I believe these Royston extensions were politically motivated). It seems there *may* be an issue with stabling capacity at Cambridge, particularly 12 cars, which could partly explain the late start.

The Maidstone service is separate to all that and would simply be a diversion of the existing 2tph Cambridge/Cambridge North stopping service, if it can be made to run reliably!

There doesn’t seem to be anything confirmed now as to when these promises will be delivered.

Currently GN has just 37.5% of the end-state service, and less if one includes the planned cancellations, and even less of one considers weekends! And they can’t even get that to work reliably...

 

[SAPhil]

I'd like to know when, if ever, the overnight services are likely to return to something like their former levels. Having turned up at Kentish Town at about 00:30, finding out there was nothing going north until 01:53 was a bit annoying! Made for a very dim day at work the following day !

 

[bramling]

The service has gone from unpredictably disastrous to awful but fairly predictably so - an improvement, but still far from what would be expected. The latter is harder to post about continuously without being rather tedious, which probably explains the drop-off in posts.

For example, I could post every week about how what was a highly reliable, almost-always-punctual commuter train before May - is now consistently, reliably, late every day (last week : 11 late, 8 late, 13 late, 10 late, 5 late). But, rubbish as that is, it has become *predictably* bad.

Or I could post every week about how rubbish Saturday services are - fewer services between Cambridge to London than 20 years ago, despite the massive growth seen on the line in that time - but rubbish as that also is, it has also become *predictably* bad.

So yes, there's not much that can be said that isn't repetition of previous points. That doesn't mean things are going well!

Agree with all of this.

Unfortunately the reality for GN users is that they're having to leave longer for their journeys to allow for unreliability. Late running and cancellations are common, the service takes longer to recover from disruption which is already much more likely due to the Thameslink effect (and will become even more so as more services run through). Long intervals in the service to certain destinations remain common, even stations which should have a frequent service like Hitchin. People are tending to take the first available train for their journey, leading to them being on a stopping train instead of the most optimum fast service for their journey. The trains are uncomfortable and starting to become dirty inside. The weekend service is dire with little indication of when this can be expected to improve.

And to cap all this off, you now get a PCN if your train is delayed and your relative continues to wait for you in a GTR station car park!

The extra capacity is welcome, however it should have been provided in a way which didn't compromise the reliability of the service to such an extent. The May meltdown is symptomatic of the "bull in a china shop" attitude of Thameslink Programme, the dependence on Thameslink being the sole solution to providing extra capacity is why we are where we are now. Thameslink should have been one of a range of solutions.

 

[gingerheid]

During the week Thameslink is now (as of the last two or three weeks) where I thought it would be on day one; generally shambolic, occasional meltdown. It took us a while to get there.

The other thing that has changed is that previously I was circumspect about calling GTR liars because maybe they weren't and... who wants sued? It's now however quite clear that they can't possibly be telling the truth.

From an infrastructure point of view, assuming staffing was sorted to expected levels, how do we think adding the extra services will go (assuming it does)? Will it make there be a shorter average wait for randomly timed trains, or gridlock?

 

[tsr]

Tonight will be “interesting”, with a person unfortunately having been hit by a train at the south end of the BML. As many trains as possible will divert via Lewes, with some TL services already heading that way, but there will be delayed trains running through the Core again.

 

[ianBR]

News on my train is that it was someone killed using a pedestian crossing over the Brighton mainline in Hassocks?

Do pedestrian crossings still exist on the BML? - surely they would have been top of the list to be closed given the high number of trains?

 

[jon0844]

The last 30+ posts on this thread (supposedly) about "Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th", seem to have turned into a rant about car parking at various stations in Hertfordshire. Does that mean that the complainers are running out of things to say about the subject matter or is it just expanding hang-ups about GTR?

The service has been (IMO) pretty good of late*, bar issues outside of GTRs control. Besides weekends (let's not go there - they're awful) I can imagine this thread being quiet, or going off on tangents, until we see what happens in early December.

* Obviously depends on your home station and route, as some services are more affected than others. A lot of people travelling solely in the peak are now finding very few cancellations or delays in comparison to a month or two ago.

 

[Hadders]

There's definitely been an improvement on weekdays but what annoys me is the small delays that services seem to pick up. And the additional journey time. A couple of years ago the off peak fast services from Kings Cross left at xx53 and arrived Stevenage at xx16, a 23 minute journey time which almost always arrived on time.

Now the services from St Pancras generally take 27 minutes, doesn't sound much different but it's a 17% increase in journey time and that's before the delays that services seem to pick up these days en-route. Add in the discomfort of the 700s, having to wait in the not so nice downstairs of St Pancras, fighting for a seat when the train arrives (instead of arriving a few minutes early at Kings Cross and finding a seat) and you can start to understand why GN passengers are not happy.

The only crumb of comfort is the xx06 services in the evenings that go from Kings Cross to Stevenage in 22 minutes (no FInsbury Park stop) which are often 365s

 

[philjo]

There's definitely been an improvement on weekdays but what annoys me is the small delays that services seem to pick up. And the additional journey time. A couple of years ago the off peak fast services from Kings Cross left at xx53 and arrived Stevenage at xx16, a 23 minute journey time which almost always arrived on time.

Now the services from St Pancras generally take 27 minutes, doesn't sound much different but it's a 17% increase in journey time and that's before the delays that services seem to pick up these days en-route. Add in the discomfort of the 700s, having to wait in the not so nice downstairs of St Pancras, fighting for a seat when the train arrives (instead of arriving a few minutes early at Kings Cross and finding a seat) and you can start to understand why GN passengers are not happy.

The only crumb of comfort is the xx06 services in the evenings that go from Kings Cross to Stevenage in 22 minutes (no FInsbury Park stop) which are often 365s

Also add in the uncertainty of the train waiting at Finsbury Park for a driver...
I know a number of North Herts commuters who now opt to get the Xx:33 LNER Leeds service from Kings Cross to Stevenage then change onto the Cambridge service as it is quicker and more comfortable than piling onto at 700 at St Pancras. They also get to board and sit down ahead of departure time. If the connection at Stevenage onto the ex-Brighton is delayed there is the stopper a few minutes later.

 

[infobleep]

Hatfield had a special area or short stays (free) but soon got taken up by taxis (the type not allowed to be hailed, but sit there and wait for someone to phone up or use an app then instantly arrive) so whatever is done, it will be abused.

I know people don't like to walk these days, but there are likely places a short distance away at many stations where people can wait without being penalised.

In the long run, car parks with ANPR are far far more convenient for those who actually want to park and leave their vehicle to use the train.

How about ANPR in the station forecourt to catch taxis that shouldn't be waiting there?

 

[Failed Unit]

The last 30+ posts on this thread (supposedly) about "Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th", seem to have turned into a rant about car parking at various stations in Hertfordshire. Does that mean that the complainers are running out of things to say about the subject matter or is it just expanding hang-ups about GTR?

But you say yourself that rehashing the same old arguments is tiresome. But no the views of the new timetable have not change from the great northern side.

Q. Is the service more reliable than it was in the summer of 2018?
A. Yes?

Q. Is the service acceptable?
A. Absolutely not - the weekends is still unusable.

Q. Is the frequency better than pre-Thameslink?
A. No. (Especially off peak)

Q. Is performance better than pre Thameslink?
A. No, just better than it was immediately after introduction

Q. Are there more seats?
A. Not in the peak. Off peak depends weekends no. When you have not got large gaps probably.

Q. Are journeys quicker?
A. The majority of key flows no. But we have some big winners and also big losers.

Q. Are the 700s comfortable?
A. No

Q. Are the 700s reliable?
A. They are still the least reliable unit in the GTR fleet according to MTIN figures.

So although the posts have dropped, the timetable still is not fit for purpose on great northern. It is just better than what we had immediately after introduction. The weekend is still unusable. We are not happy but as you have said yourself nobody cares and constantly posting to this forum won’t change anything.

 

[MikeWM]

...
For example, I could post every week about how what was a highly reliable, almost-always-punctual commuter train before May - is now consistently, reliably, late every day (last week : 11 late, 8 late, 13 late, 10 late, 5 late). But, rubbish as that is, it has become *predictably* bad.
...

11 late again this morning, to no-one's surprise

 

[AM9]

But you say yourself that rehashing the same old arguments is tiresome. But no the views of the new timetable have not change from the great northern side.

Q. Is the service more reliable than it was in the summer of 2018?
A. Yes?

Q. Is the service acceptable?
A. Absolutely not - the weekends is still unusable.

Q. Is the frequency better than pre-Thameslink?
A. No. (Especially off peak)

Q. Is performance better than pre Thameslink?
A. No, just better than it was immediately after introduction

Q. Are there more seats?
A. Not in the peak. Off peak depends weekends no. When you have not got large gaps probably.

Q. Are journeys quicker?
A. The majority of key flows no. But we have some big winners and also big losers.

Q. Are the 700s comfortable?
A. No

Q. Are the 700s reliable?
A. They are still the least reliable unit in the GTR fleet according to MTIN figures.

So although the posts have dropped, the timetable still is not fit for purpose on great northern. It is just better than what we had immediately after introduction. The weekend is still unusable. We are not happy but as you have said yourself nobody cares and constantly posting to this forum won’t change anything.

Thank you for responding so comprehensively. Apart from the "Are the 700s comfortable?" answer, which is entirely subjective and a personal opinion,* you appear to be speaking about ECML/GN line services rather than all of the other areas (MML, BML, Southern Metro and Souteastern).
My post #4878 was really about the almost completely off-topic diversion about car parks at various stations. The tenuous link to the current timetable issues (the actual topic of this thread) made a point in one post that then got dragged off the thread's topic onto anything vaguely near to a Thameslink station even including a Youtube link to Arlesley High Street traffic. With over 30 posts about car parking, time is surely ripe to create a dedicated thread about the subject which would enable those who have it seems so much to say on the subject to fill their boots.

* Not all posters here (and passengers in the real world) see the class700s as a comfort problem.

 

[bramling]

Thank you for responding so comprehensively. Apart from the "Are the 700s comfortable?" answer, which is entirely subjective and a personal opinion,* you appear to be speaking about ECML/GN line services rather than all of the other areas (MML, BML, Southern Metro and Souteastern).
My post #4878 was really about the almost completely off-topic diversion about car parks at various stations. The tenuous link to the current timetable issues (the actual topic of this thread) made a point in one post that then got dragged off the thread's topic onto anything vaguely near to a Thameslink station even including a Youtube link to Arlesley High Street traffic. With over 30 posts about car parking, time is surely ripe to create a dedicated thread about the subject which would enable those who have it seems so much to say on the subject to fill their boots.

* Not all posters here (and passengers in the real world) see the class700s as a comfort problem.

I don't see why it's such a big issue that, whilst (as you observed) there wasn't much new to discuss on the Thameslink service front, we had a small and brief diversion into another relevant GTR subject -- which as it happens has now largely run its course. It's the fact that this forum doesn't always rigidly stick to the immediately subject in hand which can, at times, make this forum both interesting and useful. In the case of the car parks, there is some relevance to the Thameslink timetable as it's the delays and late-running which largely seem to be causing the issue -- and this isn't just my or our opinion, but was actually based on a local newspaper article.

Meanwhile, GN train late again last night - surprisingly enough, delayed by a late-running ThamesLink/ service which had originated from the core. But that's nothing new!

 

[arb]

I completely struggle to understand why Great Northern trains are picking up the delays they are doing north of Cambridge. This is the performance from King's Lynn into Cambridge this morning: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/10/19/0500-1200?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt - half of this morning's trains have been at least 5 minutes late arriving into Cambridge.

I thought that one of the big controversial changes made to the timetable was to artificially delay the northbound trains to King's Lynn whilst south of Littleport, so that the southbound trains get a clear run over the single-track sections. This supposedly meant that southbound trains are less likely to be impacted by a delayed northbound train, more likely to get to Cambridge on time, and less likely to impact the Thameslink services from Cambridge, which as we know are critical for keeping things running through the core on schedule. Even this part of the plan, a significant distance away from the Thameslink tunnels, appears to be failing miserably. Northbound trains have their deliberately longer journey time, but southbound trains are still suffering regular delays, for reasons that are completely unclear to me.

 

[bramling]

I completely struggle to understand why Great Northern trains are picking up the delays they are doing north of Cambridge. This is the performance from King's Lynn into Cambridge this morning: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/10/19/0500-1200?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt - half of this morning's trains have been at least 5 minutes late arriving into Cambridge.

I thought that one of the big controversial changes made to the timetable was to artificially delay the northbound trains to King's Lynn whilst south of Littleport, so that the southbound trains get a clear run over the single-track sections. This supposedly meant that southbound trains are less likely to be impacted by a delayed northbound train, more likely to get to Cambridge on time, and less likely to impact the Thameslink services from Cambridge, which as we know are critical for keeping things running through the core on schedule. Even this part of the plan, a significant distance away from the Thameslink tunnels, appears to be failing miserably. Northbound trains have their deliberately longer journey time, but southbound trains are still suffering regular delays, for reasons that are completely unclear to me.

This time of year it *could* be due to leaf-fall and associated adhesion issues. Naturally the Thameslink effect won't be helping of course.

One of the things which should have been done to help make this shambles work is redoubling north of Ely. Not cheap or easy though I don't think.

 

[jon0844]

How about ANPR in the station forecourt to catch taxis that shouldn't be waiting there?

It's too small in the case of Hatfield and there's no official time limit. Staff can tell people to move on, but that's about it.

At the moment they don't have ANPR for the official taxi rank/bus station which means every now and then people decide to drop off and pick up there instead. That would be a lot easier to sort with technology you'd have thought.

But if it wasn't part of the original works (that started under FCC and with a real mix of funding) then who would fund it? I'd say Network Rail, or the local authority if it's partly their land, as it's infrastructure and will outlast any one franchise.

Whenever I've been picked up, it's always been a short distance from the station. It might require a walk (sometimes in horrid weather) but it saves on the congestion getting out of the station.

 

[Taunton]

I know a number of North Herts commuters who now opt to get the Xx:33 LNER Leeds service from Kings Cross to Stevenage then change onto the Cambridge service as it is quicker and more comfortable than piling onto at 700 at St Pancras. They also get to board and sit down ahead of departure time. If the connection at Stevenage onto the ex-Brighton is delayed there is the stopper a few minutes later.

See my note here about being on the 1833 travelling to Leeds, full fare Anytime, and finding it packed out and having to stand, though half got out at Stevenage.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hull-trains.171073/page-5#post-3680642

Long distance Stevenage stops were apparently Pick Up Only until about 10 years ago, when whoever was the operator of the time managed to Orcats Raid the outer suburban revenue.

 

[MikeWM]

I completely struggle to understand why Great Northern trains are picking up the delays they are doing north of Cambridge. This is the performance from King's Lynn into Cambridge this morning: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/10/19/0500-1200?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt - half of this morning's trains have been at least 5 minutes late arriving into Cambridge.

I thought that one of the big controversial changes made to the timetable was to artificially delay the northbound trains to King's Lynn whilst south of Littleport, so that the southbound trains get a clear run over the single-track sections. This supposedly meant that southbound trains are less likely to be impacted by a delayed northbound train, more likely to get to Cambridge on time, and less likely to impact the Thameslink services from Cambridge, which as we know are critical for keeping things running through the core on schedule. Even this part of the plan, a significant distance away from the Thameslink tunnels, appears to be failing miserably. Northbound trains have their deliberately longer journey time, but southbound trains are still suffering regular delays, for reasons that are completely unclear to me.

There appear to be at least three problems (plus leaf-fall, which may well not be helping). All three are present in the case of the train I'm been complaining about, which explains (though doesn't excuse!) its consistent lateness:

1. Too short turn-around time at KLN - as little as 8 minutes.
2. Freight trains getting in the way on the single-track section between Littleport and Downham Market (eg. this one).
3. Trying to fit into very tight slots through Ely North junction, and due to 1. and/or 2. and/or EMT or XC being late, missing the slot. (eg. look at this schedule between 0935 and 0958).

I'm not sure why anyone would think this timetable would actually work, quite frankly.

 

[philjo]

I completely struggle to understand why Great Northern trains are picking up the delays they are doing north of Cambridge. This is the performance from King's Lynn into Cambridge this morning: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/10/19/0500-1200?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt - half of this morning's trains have been at least 5 minutes late arriving into Cambridge.

I thought that one of the big controversial changes made to the timetable was to artificially delay the northbound trains to King's Lynn whilst south of Littleport, so that the southbound trains get a clear run over the single-track sections. This supposedly meant that southbound trains are less likely to be impacted by a delayed northbound train, more likely to get to Cambridge on time, and less likely to impact the Thameslink services from Cambridge, which as we know are critical for keeping things running through the core on schedule. Even this part of the plan, a significant distance away from the Thameslink tunnels, appears to be failing miserably. Northbound trains have their deliberately longer journey time, but southbound trains are still suffering regular delays, for reasons that are completely unclear to me.

There was thick fog in Cambridge this morning so I suspect it would be thicker on the Fens.
I recall seeing messages on foggy mornings last winter that the delays to Kings Lynn services were caused by speed restrictions on the numerous level crossings due to poor visibility.

 

[Table 52]

I think a question that needs to be asked is why the timetable promised in May is STILL not in place. As I understand it, the reasons for the delay were driver training problems and the short notice that Network Rail were providing re timetables.

We're now well over 20 weeks in, which means the NR timetable notice is now an irrelevant point (at least as far as a consistent weekday timetable is concerned). Does this mean that after 20 weeks, they still don't have enough trained drivers?

 

[bramling]

I think a question that needs to be asked is why the timetable promised in May is STILL not in place. As I understand it, the reasons for the delay were driver training problems and the short notice that Network Rail were providing re timetables.

We're now well over 20 weeks in, which means the NR timetable notice is now an irrelevant point (at least as far as a consistent weekday timetable is concerned). Does this mean that after 20 weeks, they still don't have enough trained drivers?

This is a very legitimate question.

There’s clearly driver training still going on, but I wonder if it’s also partly that no one wants to rock the boat changing the driver diagrams again. I don’t think the unit diagrams would change much as they’ve generally just pulled a complete day’s unit diagram (with a couple of exceptions to make things balance), however reinstating services would undoubtedly mean driver diagram changes, which involves things like notice periods. Perhaps their duty schedules department doesn’t have the capacity to spend time doing it even?

I think I’m right in saying we’ve seen just the one GN diagram reinstated, which I suspect was only done because it involved one or more key peak commuter services. Being a midday stabler this probably only required minimal drivers to work it.

 

[philjo]

I think a question that needs to be asked is why the timetable promised in May is STILL not in place. As I understand it, the reasons for the delay were driver training problems and the short notice that Network Rail were providing re timetables.

We're now well over 20 weeks in, which means the NR timetable notice is now an irrelevant point (at least as far as a consistent weekday timetable is concerned). Does this mean that after 20 weeks, they still don't have enough trained drivers?

I believe that the May timetable is supposed to be implemented in December. That is the message GTR have been telling the RUGs on the GN route.

The other services originally planned for December are now proposed for May 2019 (e.g. the additional Cambridge-Brighton services to make it half-hourly)

 

[717001]

How about ANPR in the station forecourt to catch taxis that shouldn't be waiting there?

There are changes underway in Hatfield with a new Traffic Regulation Order being put in place by Herts CC to control the area in front of the station (the yellow lines have been painted) plus new dedicated short term bays within the car park itself. There will be a publicity campaign regarding the changes within the next few weeks, once everything is in place.