Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[MML]

It's the 'all stations' nature of the Peterborough to Horsham south of the River which puts so many people off using it. Unless you are actually travelling to one of the halts such as Horley, there are faster and more reliable alternatives.
Thameslink is a strange hotch potch of services with a Thameslink Express from the MML often turning into at best a semi-fast via Purley and Redhill.
It would have been better to make all 700 12-car with SDO and operate trunk routes to those stations where platforms are long enough. And leave Sutton loop services and slow all stations south of the Thames services to Southern or Southeastern into terminus like Blackfriars.
700s are express stock and are wasted on services stopping at stations such as Earlswood or Horley.

 

[BRX]

700s are express stock

No they aren't - the whole design is centred on capacity and getting people on and off rapidly at frequent stops.

 

[tsr]

Speaking of South London suburbia are there plans to demolish the tower block above Thornton Heath station which looks pretty ugly

Overline House above Crawley station is another monstrosity...

Why is the Norwood area diversion depressing in your view? I can see it is in parts... there's a derelict pub right by Norwood Junction station which appears to be being worked on.. but once you reach crystal palace things become pretty plush! Quite a mix really as is common across London
Elephant is dire but at least the shopping centre is soon to be pulles down. So many ugly high risers crammed into a small space! Inner City living at its finest

Crystal Palace is the opposite of plush! The station is very nice, I suppose - in fact, very much a hidden gem, for those who don’t know it - but the whole of the rest of the area is just derelict bits of infrastructure, litter-filled back gardens, fly tipping and tunnels. It was hardly a good advert for people travelling from Gatwick into central London, that’s for sure.

I actually don’t mind the inner city section from Herne Hill to Blackfriars quite as much. You used to get some decent urban sunsets visible from that bit of the route, too.

It’s not to say the route isn’t historically interesting, but in real-world terms today, it’s pretty awful.

It's the 'all stations' nature of the Peterborough to Horsham south of the River which puts so many people off using it. Unless you are actually travelling to one of the halts such as Horley, there are faster and more reliable alternatives.
Thameslink is a strange hotch potch of services with a Thameslink Express from the MML often turning into at best a semi-fast via Purley and Redhill.
It would have been better to make all 700 12-car with SDO and operate trunk routes to those stations where platforms are long enough. And leave Sutton loop services and slow all stations south of the Thames services to Southern or Southeastern into terminus like Blackfriars.
700s are express stock and are wasted on services stopping at stations such as Earlswood or Horley.

The same could be said of the opposite end of the route, though. I’ve waited on a deserted Flitwick station before now, or stopped at a deathly quiet Harlington, wondering exactly how such places justify such as a tremendous off-peak service... including overnight services which would be a dream at the Brighton Mainline end (where half the stops on the now-sparse “overnights” are skipped for no reason other than not wishing to bother with committing to alternative transport during the rare occasions when engineering works actually prevent trains from calling somewhere).

If I’m travelling a long distance, or to the Bedford area, I’m far more likely to pick up an EMT at St Pancras rather than changing at Luton or Bedford. Granted, with recent-ish changes, I am sometimes forced to do that now anyway.

Stations like Horley may be giving the impression of “halts”, but they serve medium-sized commuter towns with additional local traffic through the day which warrants a turn-up-and-go service, particularly between local businesses and colleges. Station usage statistics will not show the full picture for one reason or another, but demand is there.

All 700s do operate with SDO, which causes very few issues, since passengers are used to the 377s which have always had it. And as for many stations (the Mersthams and Horleys of this world), they have had 12 coach platforms for many many years anyway, which typically gives a clue as to where the commuter demand lies, at the very least.

I would actually rather, in hindsight, that 700s on Thameslink ran with a simplified route map again, but with an improved frequency through to the ends of the remaining branches, at least mimicking the service provided to many of the outer-area Tube stations. Horsham to West Hampstead 4tph, with the only stops skipped being those between Norwood Junction and London Bridge, for example. Not that this will happen, but...

 

[Bikeman78]

There is also an enduring stigma amongst the market south of the Thames that Thameslink services to London are very slow. This is generally based on perceptions from the years when trains ran via Herne Hill, although obviously not helped by the fear of delays from the revised timetable (when, as it currently stands, outright cancellations are much more likely at the moment).

The publicity around the reopening of London Bridge has been all well and good, but it doesn’t seem to have done nearly enough to persuade people that they won’t generally end up with a half-hour 20mph tour of the back gardens of Norwood, which is approximately one of the most depressing urban vistas in the UK.

Back in the day, two of the four Brighton to Bedford trains only stopped at Haywards Heath and Three Bridges. Now they all stop at least five times south of Gatwick.

 

[gallafent]

I’ve waited on a deserted Flitwick station before now, or stopped at a deathly quiet Harlington, wondering exactly how such places justify such as a tremendous off-peak service...

Harlington would make an excellent new “Parkway” station, being very close to M1 junction 12 (i.e. just north of the really busy “managed motorway” bit through Luton!). It would need a much bigger car park, and probably a better access road too, though, to take advantage of this properly.

 

[Bikeman78]

I don't think that is what you saw, the fact is that passengers on the South Central division think primarily of Victoria as their destination when planning a leisure journey unless they are going somewhere in east London. Moreover, the Southern train gets to London quicker from Crawley (as it doesn't go via Redhill) and has passengers from the Arun Valley and further away to fill its eight coaches.

With the best will in the world, outside of peak times, the stations between Horsham and Purley barely filled a four-coach Southern train to London Bridge before May 2018. To expect a 12-coach train to look anything other than deserted on this route at off-peak times is quite unlikely.

If we had a full weekend timetable at Redhill, the eight coaches for Victoria each hour would appear busy and the 48 coaches for London Bridge and Thameslink would be fairly empty. That said, I think more people are now using London Bridge services.

Nevertheless, people from Littlehaven (my dad for one) have taken to going to Horsham because they know the Southern train will actually turn up. No doubt the same applies to Ifield where people can travel from Crawley. At its worst, there were 2.5 hour gaps from those stations. Additional calls by Southern services did not follow any sort of logical pattern so there was effectively no usable service for several weeks.

 

[BRX]

Crystal Palace is the opposite of plush! The station is very nice, I suppose - in fact, very much a hidden gem, for those who don’t know it - but the whole of the rest of the area is just derelict bits of infrastructure, litter-filled back gardens, fly tipping and tunnels.

That description doesn't match reality in my opinion. The section from Crystal Palace to Norwood Junction is visible from around 1.27.30 to 1.29.30 in the first video and around 0.55.30 to 0.57.30 in the second; it's quite a leafy section with views of South Norwood lake and surrounding parkland:

 

[tsr]

That description doesn't match reality in my opinion. The section from Crystal Palace to Norwood Junction is visible from around 1.27.30 to 1.29.30 in the first video and around 0.55.30 to 0.57.30 in the second; it's quite a leafy section with views of South Norwood lake and surrounding parkland: ...

That first bit of video is all a bit of a blur of shrubs, but it doesn’t look like that from a passenger seat, with a full window view. It feels very unloved, especially on a day which doesn’t have such good weather as shown. There’s also a house just south and east of Crystal Palace which seems to vomit litter down the embankment, which isn’t apparent on that video.

I’ll concede the view of parkland is nice enough, but it’s only on one side of the train for about 20 seconds. If you’re looking out the other side, the next thing you’ll see will be the Bromley Junctions and a sort of derelict yard between the tracks with a few vans and cabins in it.

In any case, perhaps I should have been clearer in saying that I was really thinking of the bit west of Crystal Palace Tunnel. Especially on the north (Down) side of the line.

 

[sefton]

No they aren't - the whole design is centred on capacity and getting people on and off rapidly at frequent stops.

Which is why they are terrible for the services they are being used on.

 

[swt_passenger]

There was never any likelihood of all services being the same type, (eg stopper, semifast, fast), on both sides of London. The whole southern region is a different sort of railway to the ECML and MML. I’d suggest thus was becoming clear ten years ago during the early timetable proposals, which eventually surfaced in the London and SE RUS.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Well some of the Impressionists were happy enough to live in /near Crystal Palace. (Pisarro painted this)

Being a fan of 19thC London suburbia , I always quite enjoy the mature urban vistas and scenery from Tulse Hill to the Palace. Some grand Victorian houses , and generally in better condition than they were in say the 1960s or 70's , - shame the trackside is so neglected. Ditto the Peckham Rye area is rather more attractive than say Barking to Dagenham or West Ruslip to Greenford which is grim with a capital "G"...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Harlington would make an excellent new “Parkway” station, being very close to M1 junction 12 (i.e. just north of the really busy “managed motorway” bit through Luton!). It would need a much bigger car park, and probably a better access road too, though, to take advantage of this properly.

Money is not spent on such things - but money is found for useless other schemes like the Sundon up freight loop - (anyone ever seen a train in there yet - please claim your reward)

You wont get rail heading that far out - hardened motorists drive to the first point of congestion , and abandon cars there , - if ever ....in MML terms it would be Cricklewood whee the M1 ends - but no parking for miles unsurprisingly.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Which is why they are terrible for the services they are being used on.

Fine if decent seats fitted. See previous tedious deliberations elsewhere.

 

[ComUtoR]

You wont get rail heading that far out - hardened motorists drive to the first point of congestion , and abandon cars there , - if ever ....in MML terms it would be Cricklewood whee the M1 ends - but no parking for miles unsurprisingly.

Work has started at Cricklewood...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Work has started at Cricklewood...

Indeed , a regeneration of a "tired" area (the words of the promoters) , who plan all sorts of investment aligned to Brent Cross etc , more high density housing , offices etc , - but I would be very surprised if commuter parking is high on the planning and sustainabilty agenda.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Money is not spent on such things - but money is found for useless other schemes like the Sundon up freight loop - (anyone ever seen a train in there yet - please claim your reward).

As noted previously; a little more patience, please! We still haven’t seen the last of the Peak District-London long/heavy/slow freight train enabling works. Buxton run-round extension, Dore South Curve extension and re-quadrupling Kettering to Sharnbrook (plus a 6-TPH EMT service with the electric Corbys) will see different southbound ‘presentation’ and real need for one long loop somewhere between Corby and London. As we have seen with some other Control Period 4 Strategic Freight Network schemes a mere five year ‘float’ for individual items is nothing unusual.

 

[Class 466]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-update-govia-thameslink-railway

 

[fusionblue]

There was a number of mini meltdowns again in GTR Land last week, but because the sevenoaks route was clipped back to Blackfriars (effectively mirroring services prior to 2009!) it's been disconnected from everything else and only ever picks up delays when it has timetabled through services through the core.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-update-govia-thameslink-railway

"It has concluded that the disruption on this network was caused by a series of mistakes and complex issues across the rail industry." but note it doesnt say anything to the effect of "failure of anyone senior to step in and effectively control/delay the situation once it become reliably unviable." Because if one senior person doesn't recognise it then its the failure of their senior, and so on and so on, until....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Transport Select Committee report on the May 20 timetable meltdown is now out.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmtrans/1163/1163.pdf

The media will have their "blame" soundbites but there's a lot of detail here on the impact of the new timetable on real people, as well as on the rail industry.
The whole document is well worth a read. Here's the summary.

Summary
Far from marking the intended substantial improvement for rail passengers across the north and in London and the south of England, the 20 May national rail timetable change and the weeks that followed will live long in the memories of a large proportion of rail users as a prolonged period of intensely inconvenient, costly and, on occasions, potentially dangerous disruption.
Rail passengers caught up in the timetabling crisis do not deserve to face an increase in their fares in 2019. We urge the rail industry and Government to consider all options to keep any regulated fares increase in 2019 to a minimum. Northern, TransPennine Express, Thameslink, and Great Northern’s 2018 season ticket holders should receive a discount, equivalent to any increase announced this year, on renewed season tickets in 2019.

The May 2018 timetabling crisis was in part a consequence of the astonishing complexity of a disaggregated railway in which the interrelated private train companies operating on publicly-owned and managed infrastructure have competing commercial interests. While there can be little doubt that “root and branch” reform of governance structures is necessary, passengers cannot wait for the Government to implement the recommendations of the Williams Rail Review from 2020.
Key lessons from the experience of passengers must be learned and addressed now or in short order. The rail industry, Department for Transport and the ORR must:
• ensure effective policies are in place—and are enforced—to assist disabled passengers when things go wrong on the railway;
• set a measurable target for implementation of “simple, one-click automated” compensation schemes, including, though franchise renegotiations if necessary, piloting such schemes on parts of the network worst affected by the timetabling crisis by the end of 2019; and
• ensure sufficient time in future timetabling processes for ongoing and meaningful public consultation, and commit to work with rail users to assess and mitigate adverse local effects of the May 2018 timetable change.

Even though all the main stakeholders had been aware for several years that the scale of change planned for 20 May was unprecedented, the industry did not adhere to its long-established system for timetable changes, which clearly sets out well-understood processes and timescales. The reasons for this were different in the north and south but the ultimate effects were the same. There was simply not enough time to put everything in place to ensure a reasonably smooth implementation. People who rely on our railways have been very badly let down by the whole system, including Network Rail, the train operating companies, the Department for Transport (DfT) and the Office of Rail and Road (ORR). We endorse the ORR’s finding that “nobody took charge”; this is extraordinary and totally unacceptable. In relation to industry structures, the immediate priority must be establishing effective oversight of the next national rail timetable changes.

In the short term, we are content for the Chief Executive of Network Rail to take charge, but the Secretary of State must make clear the extent of Mr Haines’ decision-making power over whether and when the next timetable change goes ahead. We await the ORR’s final recommendations, but our clear view is that the national rail timetabling process requires genuinely independent oversight, following accepted principles of professional project management, including the appointment of an independent Project Sponsor or Senior Responsible Owner for the whole national timetabling project. We believe this role would need to be located outside of Network Rail, so that it is more effectively insulated from commercial and political pressures.

 

[47421]

p41, para 126 of the Select Committee Report. Ruth Hannant with her job-sharer is Director General for Rail Group at the Department for Transport.

After the DfT’s evidence on 22 October, Emily Ketchin wrote to us on behalf of Harpenden Thameslink Commuters’ Group to take issue with several points. She pointed out, for example, that, contrary to Ruth Hannant’s evidence, the Thameslink service reductions were a consequence of the “Bedford Express” decision in late 2017. As noted above, this had been acknowledged by the then rail Minister in April this year. Ms Ketchin’s understanding was therefore that the service reductions were not related in any way to the phasing decision. She reiterated that the then rail Minister had, also during the debate in April, acknowledged that the Department waived GTR’s obligation to consult on the service reductions. Ms Ketchin objected to Mr Grayling’s reference to “slightly fewer” services running until 2020, arguing that “one third of key services” could not reasonably be described as such. She claimed that no new services had been introduced and, in fact, “current services still fail to meet even the low bar set in the May 2018 timetable.” She rebutted Ms Hannant’s claim that service reductions in the peak had been largely mitigated by longer trains with more carriages and seats, noting that the Department and GTR were using an unreasonable definition of “peak”, including trains leaving Harpenden for London up to 10am. We invited the DfT to respond to Emily Ketchin’s rebuttals of the evidence given by ministers and officials, but the Department chose not to submit further evidence to our inquiry​

 

[Bedpan]

There was never any likelihood of all services being the same type, (eg stopper, semifast, fast), on both sides of London. The whole southern region is a different sort of railway to the ECML and MML. I’d suggest thus was becoming clear ten years ago during the early timetable proposals, which eventually surfaced in the London and SE RUS.

It used to be achievable so why not now? We used to have Thameslink City Flyer to Brighton and City Metro to Wimbledon. Similarly two service groups, Thameslink Express and Thameslink Metro were proposed in 1992 with a lot of useful and genuinely exciting journey opportunities. And what did we get after eagerly waiting more than 20 years?

 

[sefton]

And yet again a butterfly flaps its wings south of the river and GTR goes into skip stopping mode meaning it's customers between Hitchin and Peterborough are delayed by an hour - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64318/2018/12/05

What a wonderful thing this new timetable is.

 

[JonathanH]

And yet again a butterfly flaps its wings south of the river and GTR goes into skip stopping mode meaning it's customers between Hitchin and Peterborough are delayed by an hour - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64318/2018/12/05

What a wonderful thing this new timetable is.

Hopefully from next week they will remove the gaps in the timetable that lead to hour long gaps after skip stopping.

To prove they do it at the other end as well - the 0607 from Three Bridges to Peterborough left 22 minutes late this morning - it was 6 minutes late at Purley after they cut out the stops and it used the Quarry Line - it was broadly on time by Finsbury Park. Passengers from Redhill (including me) were no later than if the 0607 had run 20 minutes late at Redhill.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64284/2018/12/05/advanced

Frustrating to have the train cancelled but you could see that skip stopping that was the right course of action.

I agree it is different on the GN at times when the service is sparse but running trains fast to omit stations does make sense sometimes.

 

[MML]

Someone has updated the 'Brighton mainline improvement project' info on the PIS. It not only advises the improvement will be no trains, but now goes on and on and on about closure dates in 2019.
The problem is the graphic takes so long to load, all the customer hears is 2 minutes of Dalek crackle. It's a total waste of time and really irritating.
I wish the person responsible would come down from their ivory tower and listen to what we are subjected to on our daily commute.
Perhaps they could spend an entire day travelling between Bedford and Brighton having to listen to it for punishment.

 

[Bedpan]

Is this the Geoff Marshall announcement? he sounds so cheery about all the line closures and disruption thaT I thought he was going to finish off by saying something like "But don't worry, we will be halving the cost of our tickets to make up for it", or maybe "send us your tickets and we will give you vouchers for free travel" - but he didn't. From the tone of his voice I can imagine him rubbing his hands together and saying "Ha ha, Suckers" when he finished recording it. As much as I like his Youtube videos, I think that I'd rather listen to Dalek crackle whilst on the train if the choice was available.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wish the person responsible would come down from their ivory tower and listen to what we are subjected to on our daily commute.
Perhaps they could spend an entire day travelling between Bedford and Brighton having to listen to it for punishment.

Don’t worry, they have been taken form their Ivory portakabin* and been on the trains to listen for themselves.

I heard the new announcement tonight for the first time; much better than the last one I thought.

*other relocatable building systems are available.

 

[Aictos]

Don’t worry, they have been taken form their Ivory portakabin* and been on the trains to listen for themselves.

I heard the new announcement tonight for the first time; much better than the last one I thought.

*other relocatable building systems are available.

Such as Portaloos?

 

[MML]

It would seem the advent of colder winter weather is having an affect on Thameslink ridership.
This week I have had the pleasure of travelling with a Whino and his assortment of Premium Lager, another who although unwashed appeared to have a bit of class and had finished off a bottle of Shiraz, a beggar who according to the spiel was conducting research into drug addiction and a rather aggressive young man who already appeared to have partaken of a pungent substance and was opening doors with a kick of his foot, rather than the handles and buttons provided.
All rather reminiscent of travelling on the Paris RER Metro.

Such a pity to see the increase in patronage of these fine services not contributing to the bottom line, particular when we are all due to see an increase in fares in the New Year.

 

[bramling]

Don’t worry, they have been taken form their Ivory portakabin* and been on the trains to listen for themselves.

I heard the new announcement tonight for the first time; much better than the last one I thought.

*other relocatable building systems are available.

How exciting, recording an announcement. It’s the sort of thing one would expect a 13-year-old on a work experience day to get excited about. About right for GTR though - their service remains indifferent yet they’re more interested in finding an egotist to record an irrelevant (*) announcement.

(* yes, very irrelevant to someone making a journey like Hatfield to Stevenage).

 

[jon0844]

GTR has secured up to 10 extra 700s from Siemens from Monday onwards. The new depots are open and all rosters are out ahead of time and approved by the unions.

Let's now see if it really works on Monday morning....