Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[bramling]

GTR has secured up to 10 extra 700s from Siemens from Monday onwards. The new depots are open and all rosters are out ahead of time and approved by the unions.

Let's now see if it really works on Monday morning....

I can’t see it being much different compared to the now. It’s not going to stop the big problem which is trains getting delayed somewhere or other then the delay propagating unless recovery measures are taken. The only positive is that at least there won’t be some of the arbitrary gaps where services were pulled as part of the “interim” timetable. Perhaps hopefully in the longer term there won’t be so many staff travelling around on the cushions from place to place making a nuisance of themselves which has been a feature of the last six months, and at times reflects rather badly on GTR.

At least this time blaming Network Rail won’t be an option.

 

[Bald Rick]

How exciting, recording an announcement. It’s the sort of thing one would expect a 13-year-old on a work experience day to get excited about. About right for GTR though - their service remains indifferent yet they’re more interested in finding an egotist to record an irrelevant (*) announcement.

(* yes, very irrelevant to someone making a journey like Hatfield to Stevenage).

I agree about the relevance point, and have made that point too!

 

[Aictos]

GTR has secured up to 10 extra 700s from Siemens from Monday onwards. The new depots are open and all rosters are out ahead of time and approved by the unions.

Let's now see if it really works on Monday morning....

Then we all woke up....

Sorry to be cynical but if something sounds too good then it is.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

GTR has secured up to 10 extra 700s from Siemens from Monday onwards. The new depots are open and all rosters are out ahead of time and approved by the unions.

Let's now see if it really works on Monday morning....

On Monday I'll go back to my boyhood and do a bit of trainspotting!

 

[choochoochoo]

GTR has secured up to 10 extra 700s from Siemens from Monday onwards. The new depots are open and all rosters are out ahead of time and approved by the unions.

Let's now see if it really works on Monday morning....

So in training they teach you about the Swiss cheese model, yet here we are with GTR lining up two holes perfectly: opening new depots and introducing new timetable at the same time.

 

[JonathanH]

GTR has secured up to 10 extra 700s from Siemens from Monday onwards.

Unfortunately there are still 4 700/0 diagrams on Bedford to Brighton / Gatwick services - in the morning peak they don't hit London at particularly awkward times but evening peak form the 1651/1721/1751 London Bridge to Gatwick and 1905 London Bridge to Brighton services. The 1651 and 1751 suffer from the gap caused by there being no 1645 / 1745 to Brighton (although there is a 1647 / 1717/ 1747 London Bridge to Caterham / Tattenham Corner immediately before and 1655 / 1755 London Bridge to Littlehampton immediately behind).

On paper these Gatwick trains should not be full but apparently they are?

Presumably the need to balance 700/0 and 700/1 workings?

 

[ComUtoR]

So in training they teach you about the Swiss cheese model, yet here we are with GTR lining up two holes perfectly: opening new depots and introducing new timetable at the same time.

One of the problems with the previous timetable was because the new depots were NOT open. Now they are open you want to pre blame the problems on opening new depots

Do you hate them that much ?

 

[bramling]

Do you hate them that much ?

It wouldn't be so hard to see why. GTR are hardly popular in the likes of Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire. I wonder why?!

Only had how many years to get the driver depots open and recruit / train enough drivers to have a seamless changeover?

The driver issues are really a side-show however, an extra (unexpected) failing to add to the (expected) main one which is that the service as designed simply isn't robust enough.

 

[ComUtoR]

Only had how many years to get the driver depots open and recruit / train enough drivers to have a seamless changeover?

If they trained enough Drivers and opened new depots are they still in the wrong or will that just be another excuse to bash GTR ? They could recruit another thousand Drivers and open end to end depots with 50% extra service cover and get 10 extra units 700s and they would still be hung, drawn and quartered.

 

[MML]

Unfortunately there are still 4 700/0 diagrams on Bedford to Brighton / Gatwick services - in the morning peak they don't hit London at particularly awkward times but evening peak form the 1651/1721/1751 London Bridge to Gatwick and 1905 London Bridge to Brighton services. The 1651 and 1751 suffer from the gap caused by there being no 1645 / 1745 to Brighton (although there is a 1647 / 1717/ 1747 London Bridge to Caterham / Tattenham Corner immediately before and 1655 / 1755 London Bridge to Littlehampton immediately behind).

On paper these Gatwick trains should not be full but apparently they are?

Presumably the need to balance 700/0 and 700/1 workings?

Yes, a very valid point.
There is an early morning rush-hour 700/0 operating a Bedford to Brighton service which I try to avoid simply because it gets so congested. It is quite simply wrong for services on the trunk routes from Bedford to Brighton & Gatwick not to be formed of 700/1 stock, and all services from Peterborough where platform lengths permit use of 12-car units should be the same.
SDO is available on the occasions shorter platforms are used.

Is it a case, there are insufficient 700/1 to cover all the services capable of 12-car working or a case of insufficient stabling for 12-car units to ensure they are available for the most appropriate services ?
The recent £15m penalty imposed on GTR which is to be used to enhance customer service would be well spent on ordering a few extra coaches from Siemens before production fully ends.
Adding 4 extra coaches (with enhanced seating suitable for use on longer distance services) and inserting them into half a dozen 700/0 units to make them 700/1 would hopefully eliminate short formations on peak flow services altogether.

If there are already sufficient 700/1 for all required diagrams, then when are the required stabling facilities going to be completed to allow their use on the trunk routes ?

And finally, is there an electronic timetable source which identifies which services are operated by 700/0 and which by 700/1 ? It's very much a lottery as to which stock turns up from a passenger point of view.

 

[choochoochoo]

One of the problems with the previous timetable was because the new depots were NOT open. Now they are open you want to pre blame the problems on opening new depots

Do you hate them that much ?

Don't hate GTR.

And having drivers at the right depots I'm sure will help in the long run.

But having seen the Horsey diagrams where it looks like about 80percent of turns start with a pass trip to finsbury park, i would have thought it would be wise to iron out the bugs that come with that first then deal with a new timetable. Not to mention drivers getting used to commuting to a new location. Has parking been arranged at Welwyn ? And where are they going to put the extra cars at Hornsey ? That car park is just about big enough for the fitters' cars. I suspect this is all in place. But we all know how systems suffer teething problems.

For the passengers' sakes I hope it all goes smoothly, but I still see it as two holes lined up in the swiss cheese. Good job they're not rolling out 717s on monday, because that would've been 3 holes !

 

[jon0844]

Yes, there is parking at WGC. For around 30 cars I believe.

 

[ComUtoR]

And having drivers at the right depots I'm sure will help in the long run.

But having seen the Horsey diagrams where it looks like about 80percent of turns start with a pass trip to finsbury park, i would have thought it would be wise to iron out the bugs that come with that first then deal with a new timetable.

New depots always have new problems, so does every new timetable. That's why there is a system of PA changes with diagrams and rosters etc. The main problem is that its all linked together. When diagrams are created they have depot locations in mind. So you start services from a depot because you have Drivers and units in place. Because of the way that rosters and the timetable is linked you have long term planning diagrams and rosters so opening a new depot at the timetable change is where you get the opportunity to introduce any new crew/unit diagrams. I have never known a diagram change not to come with problems, this is not unique to GTR. I'm not sure how you could work out the bugs in advance. You work the new diagrams then find the bugs, carry out a PA change, then start the cycle again. Sometimes I despair with crew diagrams but its an industry wide issue and I doubt will ever change. I also have a sneaky suspicion why the turns all pass to Finsbury Park. Most internals should spot the possible reason why.

One of the reasons why the last change went so badly is because that link was broken. You had work allocated to depots that didn't exist and to Drivers who couldn't work their diagrams. They also lost the flexibility of having multiple depots with Drivers spread and the ability to cover service recovery.

 

[choochoochoo]

I also have a sneaky suspicion why the turns all pass to Finsbury Park. Most internals should spot the possible reason why.

Intriguing.

Depot at Finsbury ?

Preparation for TfL takeover of inners?

 

[Bald Rick]

It wouldn't be so hard to see why. GTR are hardly popular in the likes of Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire. I wonder why?!

I’ve been using Thameslink for over 15 years, and it is fair to say that whichever organisation has operated it has been rather unpopular. It’s just the way it is. (Notwithstanding that services on the MML are significantly better than they were, indeed in my opinion it’s the best it has ever been; yes I know it’s not the same on the GN).

Yes, a very valid point.
There is an early morning rush-hour 700/0 operating a Bedford to Brighton service which I try to avoid simply because it gets so congested. It is quite simply wrong for services on the trunk routes from Bedford to Brighton & Gatwick not to be formed of 700/1 stock.

It's very much a lottery as to which stock turns up from a passenger point of view.

What short memories we have! It’s only been 7 years (almost to the day) since there were any 12 car trains on Thameslink services, and barely 2 years since there were more than just 3 in the high peak hour only. It’s not so long ago we had 4 car services in the evening peak (and plenty of them).

As for being a lottery, I simply cannot remember the last time I turned up for a 12 car and got a short form. It’s at least 6 months. Perhaps I’m lucky, although with lottery luck like that I wouldn’t be commuting.

 

[ComUtoR]

Depot at Finsbury ?

There was going to be one but it got cancelled. Did Welwyn Garden City depot get opened ? Last I heard it was delayed. Crew changes don't happen at random points along the network. There tends to be a depot or a PN point there. Further up this epic thread also shows that Finsbury Park was intended as a depot as there are numerous crew changes there. With a depot there is would resolve the passing and crew changeover problems. Our side we no longer changeover at Blackfriars because the depot was "closed" that caused a massive knock on effect with our diagrams and we are still feeling the fallout. Our new diagrams are a nightmare because of where we are now changing over or passing too and from.

I can't remember why it got closed.

 

[grid56126]

Don’t worry, they have been taken form their Ivory portakabin* and been on the trains to listen for themselves.

Only because it's on his way home

 

[Bald Rick]

There was going to be one but it got cancelled. Did Welwyn Garden City depot get opened ? Last I heard it was delayed. Crew changes don't happen at random points along the network. There tends to be a depot or a PN point there. Further up this epic thread also shows that Finsbury Park was intended as a depot as there are numerous crew changes there. With a depot there is would resolve the passing and crew changeover problems. Our side we no longer changeover at Blackfriars because the depot was "closed" that caused a massive knock on effect with our diagrams and we are still feeling the fallout. Our new diagrams are a nightmare because of where we are now changing over or passing too and from.

I can't remember why it got closed.

Blackfriars got closed because with 60 second dwell times, reduced to 45 seconds if a train is ‘catching up’, there isn’t enough time to change drivers in the core.

 

[Bald Rick]

Only because it's on his way home

Actually, it isn’t. However it is on mine.

 

[bramling]

If they trained enough Drivers and opened new depots are they still in the wrong or will that just be another excuse to bash GTR ? They could recruit another thousand Drivers and open end to end depots with 50% extra service cover and get 10 extra units 700s and they would still be hung, drawn and quartered.

The reason GTR are getting hung, drawn & quartered is because between May and now they have consistently failed to deliver their published timetable. Given that delivering the published timetable is, kind of, the main raison d'etre for a train company existing, I'd say that's good reason for them to be hung, drawn & quartered.

Perhaps if they'd trained enough drivers and opened new depots *before* the go-live date, not forgetting that the May go-live had already been considerably descoped from what was originally supposed to have been delivered, then they might only be getting hung, drawn & quartered for the inherent Thameslink unreliability, instead of other things on top of that like driver-related cancellations (and, it seems, Undesiro unreliability). Then the finger of the hanging, drawing and quartering might have pointed more towards the DFT.

It's a pretty basic understanding within the industry that when you're delivering a "project", some consideration needs to be given to what resources are going to be needed during the transition period, in order to allow one to continue the "business as usual" activities (i.e. running a train service) alongside the extra requirements associated with the project, i.e. training and cover for movements. Clearly if any planning was done then the wrong conclusions were reached, but one can't help but get the feeling May was planned based on hope rather than on any sound basis. The fact that GTR and Horton were going on record in the day or two before the first Monday morning and predicting "minimal" impact suggests a grossly inept management involved in the delivery of this change project. So if GTR are getting upset at being hung, drawn & quartered over this, they only have themselves to blame.

 

[choochoochoo]

There was going to be one but it got cancelled. Did Welwyn Garden City depot get opened ? Last I heard it was delayed. Crew changes don't happen at random points along the network. There tends to be a depot or a PN point there. Further up this epic thread also shows that Finsbury Park was intended as a depot as there are numerous crew changes there. With a depot there is would resolve the passing and crew changeover problems. Our side we no longer changeover at Blackfriars because the depot was "closed" that caused a massive knock on effect with our diagrams and we are still feeling the fallout. Our new diagrams are a nightmare because of where we are now changing over or passing too and from.

I can't remember why it got closed.

Is welwyn not due to open tomorrow ? Just like Hornsey ? Are the buildings finished ?

Finsbury Park would make logical sense for a depot. Although I'd hate to be based there. Awful surroundings but maybe primed for gentrification with the new complex to the west of the station.

Will there still be as many crew changes needed once drivers are all trained on routes both sides of the core ?

 

[jon0844]

WGC and Hornsey do indeed open tomorrow.

 

[choochoochoo]

WGC and Hornsey do indeed open tomorrow.

Any reason they cannot do crew changes on the platforms at hornsey ? For the inners anyway ?

 

[ComUtoR]

Blackfriars got closed because with 60 second dwell times, reduced to 45 seconds if a train is ‘catching up’, there isn’t enough time to change drivers in the core.

As I understand it. there was never any intention to change in the core. I think there are still a couple of change overs. WE also changed at London Bridge and I think in our new diagrams even that has changed. You never know, eventually they might actually get it down to a single Driver for the entire trip instead of 3 crew changes

 

[ComUtoR]

Will there still be as many crew changes needed once drivers are all trained on routes both sides of the core ?

I have learned to never second guess diagrams. Anything can happen, and usually does.

WGC and Hornsey do indeed open tomorrow.

Is welwyn not due to open tomorrow ? Just like Hornsey ?

Cheers.

 

[Bald Rick]

As I understand it. there was never any intention to change in the core. I think there are still a couple of change overs. WE also changed at London Bridge and I think in our new diagrams even that has changed. You never know, eventually they might actually get it down to a single Driver for the entire trip instead of 3 crew changes

There’s still changeovers at Blackfriars from Monday, but much reduced.

 

[387star]

Are WGC and Hornsey both GN and TL brand depots or split links? AFAIK No TL services call at Hornsey although there's a small 700 depot shed there which not many TL drivers sign

On Monday there is a new 0624 Horsham to Peterborough just minutes before a Bedford so it runs fast to Crawley which is unusual .. although does then call salfords and earlswood

 

[bramling]

I agree about the relevance point, and have made that point too!

Goodness, one or other of us must be mellowing out if we’re in agreement over something!

 

[bramling]

Is welwyn not due to open tomorrow ? Just like Hornsey ? Are the buildings finished ?

Finsbury Park would make logical sense for a depot. Although I'd hate to be based there. Awful surroundings but maybe primed for gentrification with the new complex to the west of the station.

Will there still be as many crew changes needed once drivers are all trained on routes both sides of the core ?

Given that the Welwyn building could clearly be seen to be a building site as recently as a week or two ago, it looks like another rush job!

To be fair, one could run a train crew depot with a timetable, a set of duty sheets, some telephone lines, a log book, and a portacabin full of lockers, but - again - how many years have they had to prepare for all this?!

 

[radamfi]

The problem with the blocking of platform 4 at London Bridge until 0721 will continue into the new timetable. Bedford and Cambridge trains leave East Croydon at 0701. The Cambridge train should overtake the Bedford train as the Bedford train stops at Norwood Junction, but if the Bedford train goes first, it will block the platform at London Bridge for ages as for some reason it gets 14 minutes from Norwood Junction to London Bridge, meaning the Cambridge train will be at least 7 minutes late.