Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Robsignals]

They should just run 2x365 and miss the three village stations. If done right they could still manage an hourly service which is what they had before.

I suspect an issue with getting the stored 365s back is depot space, especially with Hornsey now being full of undesiros going nowhere.

Who will pay the extra leasing and maintenance costs and is there capacity to carry out the maintenance? Have the stored units been selected due to having known issues and/or coming due for heavy maintenance?

 

[Robsignals]

Can you really see anyone publicly acknowledging that £7bn was spent and it won't be used to its full potential? I feel that's the big elephant in the room now - they can't be seen to have wasted all that money regardless as to whether they scale back now then bring back once they're properly resourced.

If DfT insisted that an expanded timetable had to be introduced now that might be why, they wanted a visible return on the investment.

 

[Failed Unit]

Who will pay the extra leasing and maintenance costs and is there capacity to carry out the maintenance? Have the stored units been selected due to having known issues and/or coming due for heavy maintenance?

The same mugs that are take the hit on loss revenue because of service is so poor at the moment. Us via dft. although it should be GTR taking some of the financial pain. At the moment they are not. Hence why it is taking so long to fix.

 

[Failed Unit]

If DfT insisted that an expanded timetable had to introduced now that might be why, they wanted a visible return on the investment.

Hmm. Return on investment. Meanwhile revenue has fallen of a cliff as the service is unusable off-peak. Guess no-one saw that coming. You can’t use a service that is so unreliable unless you have no choice.

 

[ComUtoR]

Is it correct that drivers aren't route assessed until they say they're ready?

Yes and no. There is no 'say they are ready' Route learning is usually done in a structured way. You will be given a number of days and typically an assessment is already booked at the end of those days. There is an expectation that you will be ready at the end of the number of days. In all honesty some routes are already quite generous. IF at the end of the time given you said you weren't ready then you would have to justify why. More time will be given as you must be competent as that is a safety requirement. Nobody learns at the same pace but the 'norms' tend to take that into account. People will ALWAYS take the pee a little. That is the nature of people. Part of the reasons why we don't generally take the pee is because A) route learning is a drama and you want to get it over and done with ASAP, your typically off roster and working days you would of had off. It cuts into your personal time and often you rearrange your life for it. B) The quicker your back on the roster, the quicker you can get a few rest days on. C) we are given flexibility. When off routes/roads etc you are given the flexibility to go out and do what you need. Questions always get asked if you didn't achieve it in the time given. Roads is often a little give and take. D) You never learn it truly. We understand this so you get the minimum sorted and then get out there and drive it.

When route learning is more structured you have very little control over it. GTR had a 'Q' Pathed unit specifically for training with an Instructor leading it and doing the direct training. The very nature of how that is being trained means that you are passed out quite promptly. Any discussion of 'not ready' is resolved directly with the Instructor.

There has to be an underlying trust that drivers want to qualify as soon as possible and I don't doubt that most do want to but if some want to cause disruption requesting more training would be one way.

There is trust. They know we don't do full days or take a few extended breaks etc but that means we get it done in the time given. They know that when it comes to the crunch. We sign it and know what we need to. We have to drive it every day and do not want an incident due to insufficient knowledge. The second we sign that dotted line, we take FULL responsibility for whatever happens.

As to the disruption. Trust me, we all hate it just as much. Nobody believes us and some of the tinfoil hattery and vitriol aimed at Drivers is very misplaced. There will always be a bad egg. Most of us just want this over with as soon as possible.

 

[sarahj]

To all intents and purposes the current weekend timetable is an emergency timetable.

Train Planning/Control did well this weekend - planned engineering work, which must surely have been known about months ago, yet nothing in any system to show which services were cancelled, where buses were running, or the times they were running. In fact none of this information appeared in systems until first thing this morning when it became apparent to staff that the works had been completely forgotten about as services were cancelled at very short notice and replacement buses were not organised.
I'm struggling to remember the last time this happened.

Something new for me this week, now that GN control has moved from Kings Cross to Three Bridges, it is nigh on impossible to get hold of anyone, even for a simple thing like changing CIS. I've spent an average of 2-3 minutes waiting for someone to answer the phone. I could understand it, but it's not like there's one man and his dog at Three Bridges. There are staff there supposedly dealing with each aspect of each region - ie not any different to how things were at Kings Cross. Why it's such a struggle just to get someone to answer the phone I don't know.
Big things like the timetable issues are appalling, but I have no faith that that will be sorted when little things, like answering the phone is such an ordeal.

Welcome to our world. They have caller ID, so unless your deemed important your call will never be answered. I let it ring for about a min to show I've tried (CYA), then either e-mail (50/50 on a reply) or. If you send a email that needs to go out to others, try and word it so it can be copied and pasted, tho' the OBS folks, who are the only ones who seem to reply/answer anything these days, still always change my 'conductor has found' to 'OBS has found'. . Fleet still answer calls, which is good. You will end up learning the number of folks who answer, and other places to call. (Sorry Y)

 

[Robsignals]

Yes and no. There is no 'say they are ready' Route learning is usually done in a structured way. You will be given a number of days and typically an assessment is already booked at the end of those days. There is an expectation that you will be ready at the end of the number of days. In all honesty some routes are already quite generous. IF at the end of the time given you said you weren't ready then you would have to justify why. More time will be given as you must be competent as that is a safety requirement. Nobody learns at the same pace but the 'norms' tend to take that into account. People will ALWAYS take the pee a little. That is the nature of people. Part of the reasons why we don't generally take the pee is because A) route learning is a drama and you want to get it over and done with ASAP, your typically off roster and working days you would of had off. It cuts into your personal time and often you rearrange your life for it. B) The quicker your back on the roster, the quicker you can get a few rest days on. C) we are given flexibility. When off routes/roads etc you are given the flexibility to go out and do what you need. Questions always get asked if you didn't achieve it in the time given. Roads is often a little give and take. D) You never learn it truly. We understand this so you get the minimum sorted and then get out there and drive it.

When route learning is more structured you have very little control over it. GTR had a 'Q' Pathed unit specifically for training with an Instructor leading it and doing the direct training. The very nature of how that is being trained means that you are passed out quite promptly. Any discussion of 'not ready' is resolved directly with the Instructor.



There is trust. They know we don't do full days or take a few extended breaks etc but that means we get it done in the time given. They know that when it comes to the crunch. We sign it and know what we need to. We have to drive it every day and do not want an incident due to insufficient knowledge. The second we sign that dotted line, we take FULL responsibility for whatever happens.

As to the disruption. Trust me, we all hate it just as much. Nobody believes us and some of the tinfoil hattery and vitriol aimed at Drivers is very misplaced. There will always be a bad egg. Most of us just want this over with as soon as possible.

Thank you for your full reply, I completely accept most drivers are doing there best but it's possible a few hard liners may be causing trouble. Did you see this from bramling #2633?

...Once again my train in was full of a particularly rowdy bunch of drivers travelling pass. It certainly does not impress passengers to be travelling on a train with people behaving worse than some schoolchildren do, and it does not sound good at all to hear things like “I can’t wait to make the phone call later when I refuse to pick up” or “I got out of a whole first half of work because the train I was going pass on was packed and I told them it was too full to board”...

In my BR days as an office worker we used to be careful not to say anything on trains that indicated we were staff!

 

[ComUtoR]

There is a big difference between what people say, and what people do. I also take anecdotal evidence like this with a pinch of salt. As I said, there will always be bad eggs but that doesn't mean we should all be tarred with that brush.

There is also a large difference between people trying to skive off work and people deliberately trying to cause widespread disruption in a militant fashion which is what the implication is.

 

[tsr]

Welcome to our world. They have caller ID, so unless your deemed important your call will never be answered. I let it ring for about a min to show I've tried (CYA), then either e-mail (50/50 on a reply) or. If you send a email that needs to go out to others, try and word it so it can be copied and pasted, tho' the OBS folks, who are the only ones who seem to reply/answer anything these days, still always change my 'conductor has found' to 'OBS has found'. . Fleet still answer calls, which is good. You will end up learning the number of folks who answer, and other places to call. (Sorry Y)

Caller ID doesn't always work (in fact it probably only works about 50% of the time, even with inbound calls from numbers which are stored in the system!). Railway numbers are... a bit random!

Occasionally Control are selective (usually when trying to only answer calls from people known to be involved in any given incident) but it is unfortunately also the case that a minority of controllers have never been frontline staff and so they still don't quite have an idea about how important it is to answer calls. There are one or two who basically never answer, which is highly annoying. This seems the case at more than one TOC and it's just not fair on people who may only have a few moments to sort something out between dispatching trains/talking to customers/going between areas of low phone signal/you name it.

Other times there's only one person who's qualified to make a decision, so they are dealing with one call at a time, and each call takes longer than the next person in the queue feels they can wait. For example, you'll rarely want to be on the phone waiting for an answer for longer than 60 seconds, but obviously some calls take 2 or 3 minutes to deal with, so the overlap is pretty awkward.

I do enjoy it when a superior being (someone with "Head of" or "Duty something" in their title) answers a call from traincrew by accident, or for their own amusement, and then feels obliged to help... best I had was when out and about, and someone needed to be "extracted" from the train in deepest rural Sussex. No more trains from them for an hour or two. One of the important people picked up the phone... "ah yes, excellent news"... I don't think the passenger in question has been allowed to board a train since!

 

[natfrac]

Hi all,
Newbie asking for advice on Thameslink pre-May 20th timetabling and 'timing type' information availability.
I noticed within the new May 20th railplan2020 timetable pdf, they had included the timing type which I understand tells you what class and number apply to an individual service.
I was trying to find a source to give the same info for the pre-May20th Timetable. I have found some pdfs of the earlier timetable, but they don't have this type of information in them.

I have a request out with GTR Customer Services, but am not hopeful.
Any advice, gratefully received,
Thanks in advance
Natfrac

 

[Robsignals]

There is a big difference between what people say, and what people do. I also take anecdotal evidence like this with a pinch of salt. As I said, there will always be bad eggs but that doesn't mean we should all be tarred with that brush.

There is also a large difference between people trying to skive off work and people deliberately trying to cause widespread disruption in a militant fashion which is what the implication is.

I'm not suggesting it would be widespread but when the situation is already so bad any extra problems are bad news even if it's only a loss of goodwill.

 

[bramling]

Who will pay the extra leasing and maintenance costs and is there capacity to carry out the maintenance? Have the stored units been selected due to having known issues and/or coming due for heavy maintenance?

There's no reason why the lease costs shouldn't be dirt cheap, given the likely over-supply of 25kv EMUs in the coming years. As for maintenance, Hornsey were happily maintaining the whole fleet until recently. There's a very slight increase in fleet size compared to the past with 29x 387s over 15x 317/321, plus a slight increase in 717s over 313s (I forget the exact number) - this ought to offset by less intensive use and a fully AC-motored fleet. Given that the stored units have been selected on an arbitrary basis (unit numbers) then again there shouldn't be any major difference in condition, unless of course they have been subject to a different regime in preparation for going off-lease?

 

[ComUtoR]

even if it's only a loss of goodwill.

Some of the very people we are out there trying to help post very disrespectful comments and denigrate my TOC, my grade and my colleagues. That 'loss of goodwill' doesn't just come from the way my TOC treats me.

 

[bramling]

Hi all,
Newbie asking for advice on Thameslink pre-May 20th timetabling and 'timing type' information availability.
I noticed within the new May 20th railplan2020 timetable pdf, they had included the timing type which I understand tells you what class and number apply to an individual service.
I was trying to find a source to give the same info for the pre-May20th Timetable. I have found some pdfs of the earlier timetable, but they don't have this type of information in them.

I have a request out with GTR Customer Services, but am not hopeful.
Any advice, gratefully received,
Thanks in advance
Natfrac

I think the diagrams were on UkModernEMU yahoo group. Alternatively if you want specific services then post here and we may be able to help. I have a set of diagrams somewhere, although I think they were for the last May timetable not December.

 

[bramling]

Shaping up to be another dismal day. Every single northbound service from the core so far appears to have been either cancelled or minimum 10 late. How long does this shambles have to last before its sponsors come to realise they have backed a dead horse?

And it continues ... the first down service ex core at Hitchin to be right time was at 14:50. Every other service cancelled or minimum 13 late.

 

[bramling]

Can you really see anyone publicly acknowledging that £7bn was spent and it won't be used to its full potential? I feel that's the big elephant in the room now - they can't be seen to have wasted all that money regardless as to whether they scale back now then bring back once they're properly resourced.

I think you're right - it's a massive elephant in the room. Unfortunately reality dawns, and if you back a loser then eventually you have to come to terms with it and accept the fact. There are ways of squaring it up though - much of the works needed doing anyway (although would London Bridge have been rebuilt in the way it has? - honest question, I don't really know the answer), and if some of the resources can be gainfully utilised elsewhere then it won't have been wasted. Use the surplus FLUs to lengthen RLU services - there are *plenty* of such services - and end up with a small surplus of RLUs, which if nothing else could be diagrammed on Southern metro services where their crowdshifting abilities would be most useful. There have already been changes to the Thameslink Programme, such as ditching Tattenham Corner and Caterham for Rainham (although it seems this isn't popular so could the Rainham service be swapped for something more metro in nature?), the Sutton Loop, etc.

 

[natfrac]

I think the diagrams were on UkModernEMU yahoo group. Alternatively if you want specific services then post here and we may be able to help. I have a set of diagrams somewhere, although I think they were for the last May timetable not December.

Thank you bramling,
I was trying to get the timing type for every service. I don't think it is practical to do that by specific services, and I don't to ask for nor create needless work for anyone.
I'll try signing up to the yahoo group and see what is there.

Thanks for your speedy response.

 

[Failed Unit]

Some of the very people we are out there trying to help post very disrespectful comments and denigrate my TOC, my grade and my colleagues. That 'loss of goodwill' doesn't just come from the way my TOC treats me.

I must admit I have no time for the management of the TOC, just as they have no time for us passengers. When the Ex-CEO stands up in a live TV interview and lies it doesn’t really show much respect to their passengers.

However I do feel for the staff doing the real work such as yourself. People working tirelessly with no information to pass on, but getting flak for the privilege.

I just can’t understand why passengers take it out on the people that are trying to help them get from A-B.

However GTR have paid their £5M poor performance fine until September. Horton is gone - but I still see little evidence the TOC actually cares about the situation, yet alone are trying to fix it. As far as they are concerned this is all network rails fault.

 

[jon0844]

The problem with the core is down to the route knowledge and drivers still changing at Finsbury Park with all the risks involved with being late, not having the relief driver show and not getting the next train and the compounded delays etc.

I don't see the core as a disaster at all. We've gone almost six weeks and not had any genuine issue impacting the core. It can be done, but nobody can say when.

If trains just ran through as intended I don't think we'd have any significant problems on anywhere near such a regular basis.

The timetable has enough padding to reduce the impact of most delays, much to the annoyance of passengers currently wondering why a KGX to CBG stopper has ten minutes added (4m at FPK, 2m at PBR and 4m at WGC) but this is there for when they run through the core.

 

[OwenB]

I just can’t understand why passengers take it out on the people that are trying to help them get from A-B.

I think the Twitter advice is getting worse as the service gets worse and less information seems to be available. Not the fault of the people on the social media feeds, but extremely frustrating for all concerned (including them).

 

[Hitchincommute]

Even the simple the simple things frustrate! At Alexandra Palace I boarded 1608 Moorgate service to change at FP to 1614 for KX to pick up 1636 northbound to Hitchin as much for purpose of getting a seat. So sat outside FP with I assume 1614 train stationary alongside on approach. 1614 moves off toward Platform 2 and I’m now watching the following Moorgate go past as we wait for Platform 1. 4 minute journey currently standing at 20 mins as we finally move!

 

[bramling]

The problem with the core is down to the route knowledge and drivers still changing at Finsbury Park with all the risks involved with being late, not having the relief driver show and not getting the next train and the compounded delays etc.

I don't see the core as a disaster at all. We've gone almost six weeks and not had any genuine issue impacting the core. It can be done, but nobody can say when.

It's not the core, it's the rest. Just in the last week we've had the Luton signal failure and a fatality in the Croydon area IIRC.

 

[47421]

check out twitter @SEG3142 for report of what GTR had to say to London Assembly Transport Committee today. Provides some more detail on the driver resourcing issues. 20 May 52% of drivers trained through London Bridge. Had 898 drivers available, forecast 854 diagrams, actually ended up with over 900 once worked through final timetable.

Twitter reports says GTR refused to give date by when it expects to have enough trained drivers. Also evasive about what new mid July timetable will bring but indicated focus will be on peak which should be something like 20 May TT, but off peak likely to be sparse for a while yet. Well worth checking on twitter for other details, see also @garius

 

[AndyY]

However, I would argue that Bedford-Brighton is by far the most important TL service and should always be protected in service disruption, notably being the main service for Bedford, Luton and St Albans, the airport traffic to Luton Parkway/Gatwick and the lack of alternatives compared to the inner TL routes (St Albans-Sutton/Sevenoaks). Only anecdotal evidence and from what I have observed too, but it would seem that more people are using St Albans Abbey or going via Stanmore/Edgware, on the GN side people are using the Uno 644 too, desperate times...

I understand what you say and agree that it makes sense.
When I wrote "This route always seem to be a poorer relation compared to the long distance Bedford <--> central London route.", I was just lamenting the fact that St. Albans <--> central London seems to always take lower priority compared to Bedford <--> central London, not actually wanting this to be changed (except consider stopping some Bedford <--> central London trains between Radlett and Cricklewood if no St. Albans <--> central London trains for a while).

Last Thursday evening was another typical example.
The northbound Luton service arriving ELS at 23:49 was curtailed to start from West Hampstead Thameslink instead of through central London. For those who start their journeys from Central London, there was a Bedford service which was delayed by a few minutes, and would arrive at West Hampstead Thameslink at about the same time as the curtailed service was about to leave.
For a moment, it was touch and go whether the Bedford train would make the connection in time, but eventually it turned out that there would be a 1-2 minute time window. When the Bedford train arrived, I saw people running desperately up the stairs to the other platform to catch the curtailed service. Some made it, but I also saw some who did not (and had a nearly 40 minute wait for the next stopper service), and the door promptly closed 20 seconds before the scheduled departure time.
Why not hold the train for another minute or so, so that everyone makes the connection? There were loads of cancellations that night and there was nothing following the Luton service anyway.

 

[MML]

I suppose I should be grateful the service is running and only 6 minutes late. The platform announcements state the Brighton to Bedford service is a 12 car but it's definitely 8 car today. Given the reduced timetable it's a pity they can't roster a FLU for this peak service. A case of everybody breath in at St Pancras I guess.

 

[MML]

Indeed the service was so packed even the normally very good air conditioning on the Class 700 units was struggling to keep the temperature low. Added to which 12-car 700/1 units were parked up in the sidings at Cricklewood.

Given that the Bedford to Brighton has now turned into a roughly half-hour interval service, I find it odd that all trains still cannot be formed of 12-car 700/1 stock throughout the day, let alone the peak.

 

[jon0844]

There's a track circuit failure near Potters Bar now, so that's going to cause problems just as the peak starts.

 

[MML]

And the wifi on the 700's is crap too.

 

[Hitchincommute]

Bottles of water being handed out at Hitchin after services start arriving 30m late from London. Around a 50p additional benefit to my £4.40 delay repay submitted!

 

[Hadders]

One consolation amid tonight’s shambles is the 1806 Pullman service to Peterborough is a 12-car 365.