THAMESLINK services to Kent and Sussex routes 2018

Status
Not open for further replies.

Minstral25

Established Member
Joined
10 Sep 2009
Messages
1,352
Location
Surrey
At the GTR stakeholders forum today they announced that the Thameslink plan is being discussed with the DFT and there are planned changes.

Highlights were:-

4 trains per hour along the Catford loop - 2 to Sevenoaks and 2 to Orpington
Peak Maidstone East service to become all day and diverted by London Bridge
New service to Rainham via Abbey Wood and Greenwich
Tattenham Corner Service removed from Thameslink (due to concerns Windmill Bridge couldn't cope with number of Thameslink trains)

Wimbledon route will be all day to St Albans

South London Metro will also be changed. Trains from Caterham and Tattenham corner will all go to London Bridge (all 377/6 or 7 10 coach splitting at Purley - no 455's). Additionally there will be Caterham Trains via Tulse Hill to London Bridge

They put up a map but I couldn't write it all down. All subject to DfT permission but very likely to happen
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Sunset route

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2015
Messages
1,068
At the GTR stakeholders forum today they announced that the Thameslink plan is being discussed with the DFT and there are planned changes.

Highlights were:-

4 trains per hour along the Catford loop - 2 to Sevenoaks and 2 to Orpington
Peak Maidstone East service to become all day and diverted by London Bridge
New service to Rainham via Abbey Wood and Greenwich
Tattenham Corner Service removed from Thameslink (due to concerns Windmill Bridge couldn't cope with number of Thameslink trains)

Wimbledon route will be all day to St Albans

South London Metro will also be changed. Trains from Caterham and Tattenham corner will all go to London Bridge (all 377/6 or 7 10 coach splitting at Purley - no 455's). Additionally there will be Caterham Trains via Tulse Hill to London Bridge

They put up a map but I couldn't write it all down. All subject to DfT permission but very likely to happen

Is that splitting and attaching at Purley all day or just the peaks as they do now and with the loss of the half hourly Cat to Vic service?
 
Last edited:

Minstral25

Established Member
Joined
10 Sep 2009
Messages
1,352
Location
Surrey
Is that splitting and attaching at Purley all day or just the peaks as they do now?

The impression I got was all day, which is why the 377/6's are being used all the time rather than 455's. There was so much information I didn't get it all, but we will get the slides in a few days.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just noted this is being discussed in London Bridge timetables during reconstruction thread. If it's not appropriate to have separate threads could mods merge this in
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,204
At the GTR stakeholders forum today they announced that the Thameslink plan is being discussed with the DFT and there are planned changes.

Highlights were:-

4 trains per hour along the Catford loop - 2 to Sevenoaks and 2 to Orpington
Peak Maidstone East service to become all day and diverted by London Bridge
New service to Rainham via Abbey Wood and Greenwich
Tattenham Corner Service removed from Thameslink (due to concerns Windmill Bridge couldn't cope with number of Thameslink trains)

Wimbledon route will be all day to St Albans

South London Metro will also be changed. Trains from Caterham and Tattenham corner will all go to London Bridge (all 377/6 or 7 10 coach splitting at Purley - no 455's). Additionally there will be Caterham Trains via Tulse Hill to London Bridge

They put up a map but I couldn't write it all down. All subject to DfT permission but very likely to happen

cheers for the info.. Do you think the tatt and caterhams to london bridge will be fast?
 

Minstral25

Established Member
Joined
10 Sep 2009
Messages
1,352
Location
Surrey
cheers for the info.. Do you think the tatt and caterhams to london bridge will be fast?

When I get the slides it will be clearer but the Caterham via Tulse Hill train will call at most stations. As far as I could see there was a split between fast and slow along the Norwood route. It looked like 8 trains per hour as well but then they started talking about splitting so not sure how that worked.

South London metro routes are thoroughly revised

Tattenham branch appeared to have two trains per hour turning round at Coulsdon Town

Like their train information screens most of the information was too small to be seen by most in the room but they promised to send them round.
 

Sunset route

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2015
Messages
1,068
The impression I got was all day, which is why the 377/6's are being used all the time rather than 455's. There was so much information I didn't get it all, but we will get the slides in a few days.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just noted this is being discussed in London Bridge timetables during reconstruction thread. If it's not appropriate to have separate threads could mods merge this in

So thee could net loss of four trains an hour 2 Down 2 up between London Bridge, East Croydon, Purley as well as the Vics. I think I'm gonna need to see those slides t get a better judgement. But spotting and attatching at Purley all day has never really worked and I can't see it working in the future, (this is from an operators point of view).
 

Minstral25

Established Member
Joined
10 Sep 2009
Messages
1,352
Location
Surrey
So thee could net loss of four trains an hour 2 Down 2 up between London Bridge, East Croydon, Purley as well as the Vics. I think I'm gonna need to see those slides t get a better judgement. But spotting and attatching at Purley all day has never really worked and I can't see it working in the future, (this is from an operators point of view).

On of the reasons for the change that was given, is that Windmill Bridge junction would be overloaded, so yes a reduction in the planned services but those that remain will all be 12 car trains I think

I agree on Attach/detach - always a failure at Redhill especially in the peak with trains queued back almost to Coulsdon when there is a problem, which there often is
 

southern442

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
1,974
Location
Surrey
Why don't they add a semi-fast London Vicbridgriafriars to Redhurst service via Tonbridge and Cambridge formed of 13 377/6's, 1 800, 1 387 and whatever else they can find (sorry no 442's) and split the train up halfway along the journey and then re-attach it again once it does an extract from Swan Lake but with 30 seconds of each song off of Nirvana's In Utero instead, and then gets lost. This new service would be 6.34684 trains every 4.28238283823 hours.

Back in the real world, Purley is slowly losing fast services to London Bridge, journey times on the Caterham and Tattenham Corner lines are ever increasing, and now Balham and Wandsworth Common have lost their direct service to East Croydon. This is just first impressions of this completely random change, but I'm sure more loveliness will come to light once the full details emerge. At least the Catford Loop is getting some love though.
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,204
When I get the slides it will be clearer but the Caterham via Tulse Hill train will call at most stations. As far as I could see there was a split between fast and slow along the Norwood route. It looked like 8 trains per hour as well but then they started talking about splitting so not sure how that worked.

South London metro routes are thoroughly revised

Tattenham branch appeared to have two trains per hour turning round at Coulsdon Town

Like their train information screens most of the information was too small to be seen by most in the room but they promised to send them round.

Hmm just like the old smitham terminators. Did they mention anything about East Grinstead, Uckfield or Milton Keynes routes?
 
Last edited:

JonathanH

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
7,404
Back in the real world, Purley is slowly losing fast services to London Bridge, journey times on the Caterham and Tattenham Corner lines are ever increasing, and now Balham and Wandsworth Common have lost their direct service to East Croydon. This is just first impressions of this completely random change, but I'm sure more loveliness will come to light once the full details emerge. At least the Catford Loop is getting some love though.

Connectivity between the stations between Wandsworth Common and Selhurst with East Croydon has always been an issue - presumably the Milton Keynes service maintains it.

However, you have to have some sympathy for the timetable planners who desperately need to simplify the timetable to offer the greatest throughput of services on a congested network.

The simplest way to do things would appear to be to keep fast and slow services on their own sides as much as possible on the Croydon to Purley corridor and keep the use of Windmill Hill junction as simple as possible as well.

You can't offer all routes to all people because there are just too many conflicting demands.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So what are the proposed reductions in Sussex services?

I think that means 'Sussex region' than fewer Thameslink trains to Horsham and Brighton.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
25,171
Just noted this is being discussed in London Bridge timetables during reconstruction thread. If it's not appropriate to have separate threads could mods merge this in

I think this new thread is better though, as this is for the post construction final phase. Unfortunately it is now being discussed in three places, as physics34 posted a duplicate in the class 700 thread as well...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So what are the proposed reductions in Sussex services?

I'd read the title as Kent Route and Sussex Route, ie Network rail demarcation rather than counties.

Caterham and Tattenham Corner both being 'Sussex Route' destinations but the proposal is presumably to just separate them from Thamesink, but their services will still be there. Don't forget the general idea of Thameslink is to join existing services through the core, not necessarily to increase the overall number of trains running around. (That's a bit of a simplification but the main point is true.)
 
Last edited:

Shaw S Hunter

Established Member
Joined
21 Apr 2016
Messages
2,318
Location
Sunny South Lancs
Worth remembering that Caterham and Tattenham Corner are both fully within the TfL zones. I wonder if TfL want to keep them away from Thameslink with a view to eventually transferring the routes to London Overground? The idea is quite a break from the original Thameslink Programme proposals.
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,204
Worth remembering that Caterham and Tattenham Corner are both fully within the TfL zones. I wonder if TfL want to keep them away from Thameslink with a view to eventually transferring the routes to London Overground? The idea is quite a break from the original Thameslink Programme proposals.

Highly likely
 

Minstral25

Established Member
Joined
10 Sep 2009
Messages
1,352
Location
Surrey
Back in the real world, Purley is slowly losing fast services to London Bridge, journey times on the Caterham and Tattenham Corner lines are ever increasing, and now Balham and Wandsworth Common have lost their direct service to East Croydon. This is just first impressions of this completely random change, but I'm sure more loveliness will come to light once the full details emerge. At least the Catford Loop is getting some love though.

Same is happening to Redhill - longer journey times. Plus our Victoria Fasts will be lost in this reshuffle as they will call all stations to Purley and then slow lines to East Croydon. Nothing will cross Stoats Nest in the standard service from what I gather meaning the slow lines to East Croydon will be very crowded.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I thought the extra Rainham via Greenwich service odd, the excuse was that the route had most passengers currently through the core (by destinations) but it didn't seem to acknowledge that this route will also have opportunity to get into central London faster because of the new connections to Crossrail at Abbey Wood.
 

infobleep

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
10,304
Wonder what will happen to the 4 fast services from Haywards Heath that run via Redhill between 5am and 6am. They run non stop from Redhill to East Croydon. I have found the 6.34 useful in the past.

There is also a 7.46 that goes that way and then nothing until 19.20. Followed by 3 services between 23.30 and 0.30.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
Wimbledon route will be all day to St Albans

I don't know what stops in what platforms, what lines are connected etc but once Crossrail starts running, could any Thameslink Trains get extended to run along the SWML?
 

whoosh

Member
Joined
3 Sep 2008
Messages
850
TL1 Bedford-London Bridge-Brighton
TL2 Bedford-London Bridge-Gatwick
TL3 (Bedford-London Bridge-East Grinstead) Peak hours only
TL4 (Bedford-London Bridge-Littlehampton) Peak hours only
TL5 Peterborough-London Bridge-Horsham
TL6 Cambridge North [semi fast]-London Bridge-Brighton
TL7 {Cambridge [stopping]-London Bridge-Maidstone East} Mon-Sat
TL8 (Welwyn peak hours)- Blackfriars-E&C-Sevenoaks
TL9 (Luton peak hours)-Kentish Town-E&C-Orpington
TL10 Luton-London Bridge-Abbey Wood-Rainham
TL11 St Albans-E&C-Wimbledon via Sutton
TL12 St Albans-E&C-Sutton via Wimbledon

All services 2tph daily except where shown otherwise.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
4,900
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
Same is happening to Redhill - longer journey times. Plus our Victoria Fasts will be lost in this reshuffle as they will call all stations to Purley and then slow lines to East Croydon. Nothing will cross Stoats Nest in the standard service from what I gather meaning the slow lines to East Croydon will be very crowded.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I thought the extra Rainham via Greenwich service odd, the excuse was that the route had most passengers currently through the core (by destinations) but it didn't seem to acknowledge that this route will also have opportunity to get into central London faster because of the new connections to Crossrail at Abbey Wood.

Well worth having a 70mph junction at Stoats Nest then! What a waste of a newly-replaced asset and what a way to invite needless congestion on the approach to EC.
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,204
I think this new thread is better though, as this is for the post construction final phase. Unfortunately it is now being discussed in three places, as physics34 posted a duplicate in the class 700 thread as well...

I just wanted to spread the word

I
 

Phil.

Established Member
Joined
10 Oct 2015
Messages
1,323
Location
Penzance
Same is happening to Redhill - longer journey times. Plus our Victoria Fasts will be lost in this reshuffle as they will call all stations to Purley and then slow lines to East Croydon. Nothing will cross Stoats Nest in the standard service from what I gather meaning the slow lines to East Croydon will be very crowded.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I thought the extra Rainham via Greenwich service odd, the excuse was that the route had most passengers currently through the core (by destinations) but it didn't seem to acknowledge that this route will also have opportunity to get into central London faster because of the new connections to Crossrail at Abbey Wood.

It's like deja vu. When the Redhill service was decimated to thin out the trains for the London Bridge works I remember saying to someone that when the works are finished don't expect the train service to improve 'cos Southern - or whatever they'll be called by then - just consider the Earlswood-Redhill-Merstham-Coulsden loop a nuisance. What a situation it is when £millions are spent with the result that the services are slower than they were in 1986.
I'm glad that I don't live in Redhill anymore.
 

jeromeroberts

Member
Joined
16 Oct 2012
Messages
15
A quick question out of curiosity will the service to Maidstone East Via London Bridge be routed via the Chatham loop avoiding Bromley south or via the Beckenham spur through Catford Bridge ?
 

Castle Cary

Member
Joined
3 Sep 2015
Messages
31
TL10 Luton-London Bridge-Abbey Wood-Rainham
.

Before the London Bridge works Greenwich line passengers were told that, after completion of the works, it would be physically impossible to run through trains off the Charing X lines at Borough Market onto the North Kent (or Greenwich Line). Presumably these TL10 trains will drop down from Blackfriars onto the CX lines at Metropolitan Junction. So what has changed?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
25,171
I just wanted to spread the word

I can understand why you did it, because it affects 700 deployment; but it invariably ends up with 2 or more discussions in parallel. In hindsight it would have been better to just draw attention to this thread.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
4,900
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
It's like deja vu. When the Redhill service was decimated to thin out the trains for the London Bridge works I remember saying to someone that when the works are finished don't expect the train service to improve 'cos Southern - or whatever they'll be called by then - just consider the Earlswood-Redhill-Merstham-Coulsden loop a nuisance. What a situation it is when £millions are spent with the result that the services are slower than they were in 1986.
I'm glad that I don't live in Redhill anymore.

Indeed - despite NR spending £15m or more on an additional platform, work on which has already started, it seems that it is destined to be a permanent backwater with the river of the Quarry line rushing by! I interchange at Redhill and it's become painful of late. All this despite it being a major town and a railway node, with routes to Tonbridge, Reigate, Gatwick, Guildford, etc.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
25,171
Before the London Bridge works Greenwich line passengers were told that, after completion of the works, it would be physically impossible to run through trains off the Charing X lines at Borough Market onto the North Kent (or Greenwich Line). Presumably these TL10 trains will drop down from Blackfriars onto the CX lines at Metropolitan Junction. So what has changed?

Never impossible. Just not practical to timetable. There are numerous crossovers that allow trains to make almost any theoretical move, but they have been put there for engineering works diversions and service recovery, not fort the normal day to day timetable.

There's a grade separated connection from the New Cross (and Greenwich) lines to the Thameslink route via the Bermondsey diveunder east of London Bridge, but a Greenwich to Charing Cross move would still need flat crossings of the down Charing Cross, which would probably cause too many extra conflicts.
 

Class 466

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
845
Before the London Bridge works Greenwich line passengers were told that, after completion of the works, it would be physically impossible to run through trains off the Charing X lines at Borough Market onto the North Kent (or Greenwich Line). Presumably these TL10 trains will drop down from Blackfriars onto the CX lines at Metropolitan Junction. So what has changed?

They'll run on the Thameslink Lines, Not CX lines which are now separated.

On another note, the proposal is also for some of the Cambridge - Maidstone East Services to extend to Ashford Int'l in the peaks.
 

whoosh

Member
Joined
3 Sep 2008
Messages
850
Indeed - despite NR spending £15m or more on an additional platform, work on which has already started, it seems that it is destined to be a permanent backwater with the river of the Quarry line rushing by! I interchange at Redhill and it's become painful of late. All this despite it being a major town and a railway node, with routes to Tonbridge, Reigate, Gatwick, Guildford, etc.

As far as I know, Peterborough to Horsham trains will still run via Redhill.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top