THAMESLINK services to Kent and Sussex routes 2018

[Deepgreen]

As far as I know, Peterborough to Horsham trains will still run via Redhill.

Nothing to the coast, though, despite local meetings being told that Brighton trains would return after London Bridge is done. Possibly also nothing to Victoria either, or just a few peak workings.

 

[hwl]

A quick question out of curiosity will the service to Maidstone East Via London Bridge be routed via the Chatham loop avoiding Bromley south or via the Beckenham spur through Catford Bridge ?

Via the quick route SEML in from Chiselhurst...

 

[JamesRowden]

Nothing to the coast, though, despite local meetings being told that Brighton trains would return after London Bridge is done. Possibly also nothing to Victoria either, or just a few peak workings.

But 6tph to Gatwick at which almost all services to the coast should call.

 

[louis97]

Before the London Bridge works Greenwich line passengers were told that, after completion of the works, it would be physically impossible to run through trains off the Charing X lines at Borough Market onto the North Kent (or Greenwich Line). Presumably these TL10 trains will drop down from Blackfriars onto the CX lines at Metropolitan Junction. So what has changed?

These will run on the TL lines, diverging from them in the down direction at the new Corbetts Lane Junction onto Line 4 and joining them in the up direction at Blue Anchor from the Southwark Reversible. The Southwark Reversible goes under the Thameslink lines from Line 4 to allow it to join without crossing the down line.

 

[JonathanH]

Well worth having a 70mph junction at Stoats Nest then! What a waste of a newly-replaced asset and what a way to invite needless congestion on the approach to EC.

The replacement of Stoats Nest Junction was still necessary for those times when the Quarry line is shut.

The use of it in the standard timetable is probably a major contributor to delays on the coastal routes - it also causes a gap in services from Gatwick to London. Running 14tph or 16tph from Gatwick (1 stopping at Horley instead) to East Croydon (4 Gatwick Express) all via the Quarry line should ensure a much smoother service.

However, something really needs to happen with the junction at South Croydon and the approach to Platform 4 at East Croydon now to ensure that the service on the 'slow' side doesn't cause delays.

 

[Class 466]

The Calling Pattern for the Maidstone East to Cambridge services (at the southern end) is reported to be: West Malling, Borough Green, Otford, Swanley then fast to London Bridge and onto the core. I can see these services becoming rather popular with a direct service to London Bridge after many years without.

 

[Phil.]

As far as I know, Peterborough to Horsham trains will still run via Redhill.

Ooh be still my fluttering heart. No decent fast trains to Victoria any more but who in heaven's name wants to go from Redhill to Peterborough? Say what you like about intermediate journeys, it doesn't bring back the fast Victorias and that's the best and most convenient London station from south of the river. Blackfriars and London Bridge are too far east. As a previous poster has pointed out Redhill is an expanding town with a big rail catchment area. It's at a major railway crossroads with lines running north to London, south to the coast, east to Tonbridge and west to Reading yet the station and it's potential passengers are treated like a branch line with a service that's getting progressively worse in practical terms. The building of a new island platform and the conversion of the previous through platform 1 is the work of madness.

 

[Deepgreen]

The replacement of Stoats Nest Junction was still necessary for those times when the Quarry line is shut.

The use of it in the standard timetable is probably a major contributor to delays on the coastal routes - it also causes a gap in services from Gatwick to London. Running 14tph or 16tph from Gatwick (1 stopping at Horley instead) to East Croydon (4 Gatwick Express) all via the Quarry line should ensure a much smoother service.

However, something really needs to happen with the junction at South Croydon and the approach to Platform 4 at East Croydon now to ensure that the service on the 'slow' side doesn't cause delays.

Agreed - it's just galling to have the junction used so little in future, notwithstanding the delays that it certainly can entail. South Croydon onwards to p4 is a disaster - maybe something could be done about the starting signals at p4 and p5 so that a train could enter p4 when one is leaving p5 to cross in front of it (some form of approach/speed control?).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ooh be still my fluttering heart. No decent fast trains to Victoria any more but who in heaven's name wants to go from Redhill to Peterborough? Say what you like about intermediate journeys, it doesn't bring back the fast Victorias and that's the best and most convenient London station from south of the river. Blackfriars and London Bridge are too far east. As a previous poster has pointed out Redhill is an expanding town with a big rail catchment area. It's at a major railway crossroads with lines running north to London, south to the coast, east to Tonbridge and west to Reading yet the station and it's potential passengers are treated like a branch line with a service that's getting progressively worse in practical terms. The building of a new island platform and the conversion of the previous through platform 1 is the work of madness.

Generally agree, but to be fair, it's not the through Peterborough traffic (?) that is being catered for, but the intermediate journeys. By the way, the new Redhill platform is to be a single-sided one, rather than an island.

 

[class387]

TL1 Bedford-London Bridge-Brighton
TL2 Bedford-London Bridge-Gatwick
TL3 (Bedford-London Bridge-East Grinstead) Peak hours only
TL4 (Bedford-London Bridge-Littlehampton) Peak hours only
TL5 Peterborough-London Bridge-Horsham
TL6 Cambridge North [semi fast]-London Bridge-Brighton
TL7 {Cambridge [stopping]-London Bridge-Maidstone East} Mon-Sat
TL8 (Welwyn peak hours)- Blackfriars-E&C-Sevenoaks
TL9 (Luton peak hours)-Kentish Town-E&C-Orpington
TL10 Luton-London Bridge-Abbey Wood-Rainham
TL11 St Albans-E&C-Wimbledon via Sutton
TL12 St Albans-E&C-Sutton via Wimbledon

All services 2tph daily except where shown otherwise.

So what would be the Cambridge slow service on Sundays? Also would a 700 fit in Foxton?

 

[urpert]

The Calling Pattern for the Maidstone East to Cambridge services (at the southern end) is reported to be: West Malling, Borough Green, Otford, Swanley then fast to London Bridge and onto the core. I can see these services becoming rather popular with a direct service to London Bridge after many years without.

Yes, that's similar to the fast Cannon St services that used to exist when I lived in Maidstone but have gone now, leaving Maidstone with a pretty embarrassing service for a county town.

 

[JonathanH]

Agreed - it's just galling to have the junction used so little in future, notwithstanding the delays that it certainly can entail. South Croydon onwards to p4 is a disaster - maybe something could be done about the starting signals at p4 and p5 so that a train could enter p4 when one is leaving p5 to cross in front of it (some form of approach/speed control?).

Unfortunately it has been confirmed on this forum before that there is nothing which can be done with the arrangements at platform 4 / 5 at East Croydon but this and the junction at South Croydon is now where Redhill passengers need to be pushing - forget about massive civil engineering works at Hooley.

 

[Deepgreen]

Unfortunately it has been confirmed on this forum before that there is nothing which can be done with the arrangements at platform 4 / 5 at East Croydon but this and the junction at South Croydon is now where Redhill passengers need to be pushing - forget about massive civil engineering works at Hooley.

Sorry - how do you mean? Incidentally, do you know what the extra distance needs to be to the crossover from 5 to 4 at EC to allow p4 entry while the crossover from p5 is in use? I am thinking of a short platform extension at the south end of p4 to permit the starter to move a few metres south as well to provide the required over-run. Not cheap, but nowhere near as much as moving the crossover.

 

[Minstral25]

Nothing to the coast, though, despite local meetings being told that Brighton trains would return after London Bridge is done. Possibly also nothing to Victoria either, or just a few peak workings.

But 6tph to Gatwick at which almost all services to the coast should call.

The service from Redhill to Gatwick will remain 2 all stations trains (Peterborough to Horsham) and 2 fast trains (Bedford to Gatwick).

Interestingly the Horsham trains will run fast from Redhill to Purley, then East Croydon and London Bridge and the Three Bridges will call at Merstham, Coulsdon South, Purley, East Croydon, Norwood Junction and London Bridge. They both mean Purley keeps fast trains to London and extremely annoys all Redhill passengers as fastest train to London will be 34 minutes (previously 27!)

Who from Southern told Redhill passengers that Brighton trains will reappear?

 

[JonathanH]

Unfortunately it has been confirmed on this forum before that there is nothing which can be done with the arrangements at platform 4 / 5 at East Croydon but this and the junction at South Croydon is now where Redhill passengers need to be pushing - forget about massive civil engineering works at Hooley.

Sorry - how do you mean? Incidentally, do you know what the extra distance needs to be to the crossover from 5 to 4 at EC to allow p4 entry while the crossover from p5 is in use? I am thinking of a short platform extension at the south end of p4 to permit the starter to move a few metres south as well to provide the required over-run. Not cheap, but nowhere near as much as moving the crossover.

See here http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2341780&postcount=1143

Presumably there is pointwork and a close signal at the south end that prevents the extension of platform 4 together with the face that the platform would be too narrow aside the walkway from the concourse.

 

[Deepgreen]

See here http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2341780&postcount=1143

Presumably there is pointwork and a close signal at the south end that prevents the extension of platform 4 together with the face that the platform would be too narrow aside the walkway from the concourse.

I don't think the extension would any narrower than the section of platform already in place (and no narrower than many provided out of Waterloo for the ten car programme). However, although there is no pointwork in the way, the proximity of the previous ('home') signal may be an issue. That was why I wondered what the distances involved are. A frustrating situation at such a crucial spot!

 

[Philip C]

The service from Redhill to Gatwick will remain 2 all stations trains (Peterborough to Horsham) and 2 fast trains (Bedford to Gatwick).

Presumably plus some sort of service ex. Reading/Guildford.

On another point the service to the Medway Towns via Dartford/Gravesend not only duplicates some of the Crossrail facility but also HS1 service into St Pancras. On the positive side will this provide some spare capacity at Cannon Street for peak workings to Hastings etc.?

 

[MikePJ]

So what would be the Cambridge slow service on Sundays? Also would a 700 fit in Foxton?

Various noises have been made about lengthening platforms at Foxton, Shepreth and Meldreth, because eight car trains can't call at Foxton or Shepreth without fouling a level crossing. However, nothing has been confirmed.
I know the local rail users group are very anxious that these three stations will continue to be served and will benefit from the extra train per hour.

 

[JamesRowden]

The service from Redhill to Gatwick will remain 2 all stations trains (Peterborough to Horsham) and 2 fast trains (Bedford to Gatwick)

+ 2tph GWR Reading-Gatwick

 

[petersi]

Various noises have been made about lengthening platforms at Foxton, Shepreth and Meldreth, because eight car trains can't call at Foxton or Shepreth without fouling a level crossing. However, nothing has been confirmed.

I know the local rail users group are very anxious that these three stations will continue to be served and will benefit from the extra train per hour.

I guess that means it unlikely to be done in time for the 2018 dec time table change. All planing and procession planing takes long time. So this means that Cambridge stoppers will not be class 700 for the foreseeable future. ( foxton level crossing spans the main A10 one of the main. Routes between Royston and Cambridge)


Very bad news for places such as Welwyn garden city as we will be stuck with 4 car trains off peak, that at weekends are over crowed

Leaves a of what happens to the Cambridge stoppers up in the air if you can not use class 700.

 

[class387]

I guess that means it unlikely to be done in time for the 2018 dec time table change. All planing and procession planing takes long time. So this means that Cambridge stoppers will not be class 700 for the foreseeable future. ( foxton level crossing spans the main A10 one of the main. Routes between Royston and Cambridge)


Very bad news for places such as Welwyn garden city as we will be stuck with 4 car trains off peak, that at weekends are over crowed

Leaves a of what happens to the Cambridge stoppers up in the air if you can not use class 700.

What will they be formed of then? Is there sufficient 387s for them? I think this could have the answer for what will happen to the 365s.

 

[petersi]

I must admit I am very confused as they still list Cambridge stoppers going through the core.

The only solution that could be done in the time scale is SDO with the front for coaches staying shut so avoid fowling the crossing but would this extend time in station?

Revers for trains from Cambridge

 

[ScotGG]

Couple of queries about the proposal to run trains to Rainham via Abbey Wood:

Would this be run with a 12 car 700 I wonder? Given 10 cars on the line are busy surely it will be?

Does this replace the 2tph Charing Cross service via Blackheath and Lewisham? If so it would sever any link to those towns through the tunnel from Charlton. Or could it be in addition, meaning 10 trains per hour on that line off-peak (6 tph to Cannon Street, 2tph Thameslink to Luton and 2tph to Charing Cross via Lewisham. The line can take 10tph in the peaks and has for many years. As it is in an area seeing mass house building, with huge plans forthcoming (Charlton riverside etc) then it could sustain that level.

 

[jopsuk]

it doesn't bring back the fast Victorias and that's the best and most convenient London station from south of the river.

Doesn't that very much depend upon where you're trying to get to? FOr instance, if it's Southwark and the City, then London Bridge and Blackfriars/City/Farringdon are rather more conveniant, with a bonus of directly access Camden

 

[hwl]

Couple of queries about the proposal to run trains to Rainham via Abbey Wood:

Would this be run with a 12 car 700 I wonder? Given 10 cars on the line are busy surely it will be?

Does this replace the 2tph Charing Cross service via Blackheath and Lewisham? If so it would sever any link to those towns through the tunnel from Charlton. Or could it be in addition, meaning 10 trains per hour on that line off-peak (6 tph to Cannon Street, 2tph Thameslink to Luton and 2tph to Charing Cross via Lewisham. The line can take 10tph in the peaks and has for many years. As it is in an area seeing mass house building, with huge plans forthcoming (Charlton riverside etc) then it could sustain that level.

1. It is effectively being swapped with CAT/TAT which were 8 car.
2. It stops at the 8 car MML stations.
3. They won't have enough 12 car trains unless you swap any of the remaining BML services which will now be even more crowded to 8 car instead (all the platforms they stop at are 12 car)
4. It is semi fast

Then have a guess...
The service list effective has 1-6 as 12 car and 7-12 as 8 car.

 

[ctom_s]

A quick question out of curiosity will the service to Maidstone East Via London Bridge be routed via the Chatham loop avoiding Bromley south or via the Beckenham spur through Catford Bridge ?

Looking through the thread not sure anyone answered this. It'll be routed via Otford, St Mary Cray and Chislehurst presumably as that's what the old London Bridge fasts from Maidstone used to do. The other route would be longer for no reason as far as I see it.

 

[Minstral25]

+ 2tph GWR Reading-Gatwick

Of course - Ooops

 

[trainmania100]

Wonder how much it'll cost to go from Brighton to Cambridge...

 

[jopsuk]

Wonder how much it'll cost to go from Brighton to Cambridge...

What it costs now, + the annual fare rise. As it is it's not that difficult a journey, get a Thameslink train to St Pancras and walk over to Kings Cross to get a Great Northern to Cambridge

 

[physics34]

Unfortunately it has been confirmed on this forum before that there is nothing which can be done with the arrangements at platform 4 / 5 at East Croydon but this and the junction at South Croydon is now where Redhill passengers need to be pushing - forget about massive civil engineering works at Hooley.

Remember BOTH trains can be brought in on a red at the end of the platforms 4 and 5... at least the platform duties, and passenger movements can be done.....

At least the train in platform 4 will be ready to start rather than sitting outside of the platform.

Maybe a TRTS should be installed on platforms 4 and 5.

also,
i tell you what would help....... better dispatch. Quite often in the morning peak, platform staff seem to be more keen to dispatch a train on platform 3 than platform 4. this maybe due to short staffing but the trains on platform 4 need to be sent off promptly.

 

[theageofthetra]

I think the big news is the 4tph Catford Loop. Very low housing density for an area close to central London ripe for 'improvement' the only problem being the land owned by Lord Cator estate who for many years prevented Sunday services on the Mid Kent. TFL have a 4tph min service requirement too?