THAMESLINK services to Kent and Sussex routes 2018

[Class377/5]

Welwyn garden city, Hatfield etc now only get an hourly service through the core instead of 2tp to kings cross at present after evening peak
According to the table for TL7
The station by station comparison claims same service level??

No where does it say that the TL services will be hourly. In fact all service frequencies will 2tph. Did you confuse talk of the GN 'Metro' going from 3tph to 4tph as meaning Thameslink as that increase is for the GN Metro Moorgate services NOT Thameslink.

 

[petersi]

No where does it say that the TL services will be hourly. In fact all service frequencies will 2tph. Did you confuse talk of the GN 'Metro' going from 3tph to 4tph as meaning Thameslink as that increase is for the GN Metro Moorgate services NOT Thameslink.

I have attached a screen capture of the relevent table to my reading it shows 1TP in the evening

 

[AM9]

I have attached a screen capture of the relevent table to my reading it shows 1TP in the evening

TL7 shows 1 tph from Cambridge to Maidstone East and 3 tph from Cambridge to Ashford International, all running through the core - that looks like four per hour to me.

 

[JonathanH]

Too busy fuming at the selling of the Redhill line right up the river. Loss of Fast services, Loss of Weekend Brighton Trains, 11 minute extension of journey times to London Victoria (up from 28 mins to 39).

OK for two out of four trains per hour they said London Bridge trains will take 3 minutes less than they did in 2011 but then they removed the 27 minute peak trains to London Bridge

Not happy with this at all!

Are any of the proposed changes at Redhill actually a surprise? We already knew the calling pattern they were working on and that 4 of the 6 trains an hour would go to London Bridge / Thameslink. The other two have to go to Victoria and whilst we might have hoped that there was a 7th path to London for a fast, there really just isn't the capacity when you take all the competing demands into account.

Running all the trains as stoppers spreads the load across the services and should ensure an evenly spaced service, something which Redhill has not had.

I am a bit disappointed that they are only proposing to run hourly to Reigate off peak but if GWR are to run three times an hour from Redhill, maybe that won't be that much of a hardship. I think I would run the Victoria service to Reigate / Tonbridge and Reigate / Three Bridges splitting at Redhill as otherwise they are going to continue sending 4-car trains into London which causes havoc at East Croydon.

There is clearly an option not to run any through trains to Reigate and maybe eliminate portion working at Redhill. Would this give a more reliable service and Victoria trains to the stations south of Redhill at the cost of Reigate and Tonbridge passengers changing.

There are some welcome things about evening frequencies. I think that continuation of late services after 10pm they have committed to should be pushed for.

Having the trains run through to the South Coast can be a double-edged sword so does it really matter if they don't come via Redhill any more? The residual service should be more reliable (and less full of Gatwick passengers) if it originates from the Redhill area.

The other thing to watch is just what they are hoping to squeeze through on the slow lines at East Croydon. It looks like 18tph through South Croydon junction which means everything has to work to time but really looks like they are trying to do as much as they can to maximise capacity.

 

[plcd1]

TL7 shows 1 tph from Cambridge to Maidstone East and 3 tph from Cambridge to Ashford International, all running through the core - that looks like four per hour to me.

It says trains are hourly and three specific trains, not 3 tph, run on to Ashford from Maidstone. That only applies M-F but I accept the screen shot doesn't show all of the footnotes. I've gone back to the full consultation doc to double check.

 

[Class377/5]

I have attached a screen capture of the relevent table to my reading it shows 1TP in the evening

You've ignored the 2tph on TL6 giving 6tph in the evenings from those stations.

I stand corrected on the 1tph in the evening (when services naturally die down. Currently in the evening I got from a 4tph on Thameslink to 2tph).

 

[petersi]

You've ignored the 2tph on TL6 giving 6tph in the evenings from those stations.



I stand corrected on the 1tph in the evening (when services naturally die down. Currently in the evening I got from a 4tph on Thameslink to 2tph).

I now confused are Tl6 trains going to stop at Welwyn garden city in the evening
Unlikely as these are 12 car and Welwyn garden city is 8 car platform.

 

[Class377/5]

I now confused are Tl6 trains going to stop at Welwyn garden city in the evening
Unlikely as these are 12 car and Welwyn garden city is 8 car platform.

There is zero reasons a 12 car 700 cannot call at 8 car platforms. The 12 car 700/1 are already booked daily to call at 8 car stations on the BML and MML so I cannot se an issue with this on the GN side of things other than people aren't used to it.

 

[petersi]

Welwyn North I can see no problem but is the platform 4 loop for Welwyn garden city long enough for 12 cars

 

[Class377/5]

Welwyn North I can see no problem but is the platform 4 loop for Welwyn garden city long enough for 12 cars

Don't think you understand it doesn't have to be. That's what SDO is for, its just the GN isn't used to that.

 

[Bishopstone]

Disappointed that Seaford-Lewes is dropping from 3tph to 2tph in the peaks, and that the through Victoria services are under threat. There is talk of an acceptable 5-9 minute connection at Lewes off alternative London trains, but given how often these 'connections' are missed in the pm peak, this is not reassuring.

Also just read that Haywards Heath calls will cease, in the peak GatEx service, to be replaced by 'other Southern services'. This will not go down well, and the loss of HH as an interchange from/to GatEx is regrettable.

 

[LeeLivery]

To us along the Sydenham corridor it seems GTR have just said "stuff 'em". Although they admit Thameslink services would be very popular, its a bit too difficult to timetable. To add insult we'd be losing the direct link to East Croydon, telling 1600 people to change at Norwood daily and we'd get even more trains to West Croydon. This will not go down well.

 

[physics34]

To us along the Sydenham corridor it seems GTR have just said "stuff 'em". Although they admit Thameslink services would be very popular, its a bit too difficult to timetable. To add insult we'd be losing the direct link to East Croydon, telling 1600 people to change at Norwood daily and we'd get even more trains to West Croydon. This will not go down well.

Yeh not good..... considering this service has been in place since the beginning of time. Also with no disabled access at norwood junction this could be big issue. They would have to ensure trains arrive into platform 5 for cross platform access for East Croydon connections.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can Purley not be used more as a turn around point. Caterham has never needed 4 tph off peak neither has Coulsdon Town.

 

[AM9]

It says trains are hourly and three specific trains, not 3 tph, run on to Ashford from Maidstone. That only applies M-F but I accept the screen shot doesn't show all of the footnotes. I've gone back to the full consultation doc to double check.

OK just re-read note 3. Still, assuming that the post peak hours start at 19:00, then 2 tph until nearly 22:00. In addition to that there is the Metro service that will get passengers to Finsbury Park where the fasts stop.

 

[swt_passenger]

Seems to me all the stuff about Ashford is just confusing the picture, as it is irrelevant to the service pattern north of London.

Why not just read the Maidstone line in the table, because Ashford is just an extension of some trains through Maidstone. They are the same trains and it doesn't alter the headline Cambridge to London service whether a particular train happens to go to Maidstone or all the way to Ashford.

 

[Class377/5]

Seems to me all the stuff about Ashford is just confusing the picture, as it is irrelevant to the service pattern north of London.

Why not just read the Maidstone line in the table, because Ashford is just an extension of some trains through Maidstone. They are the same trains and it doesn't alter the headline Cambridge to London service whether a particular train happens to go to Maidstone or all the way to Ashford.

Those that use the Blackfriars to Ashford service that has existed for years would disagree of course.

 

[JonathanH]

Yeh not good..... considering this service has been in place since the beginning of time. Also with no disabled access at norwood junction this could be big issue. They would have to ensure trains arrive into platform 5 for cross platform access for East Croydon connections.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can Purley not be used more as a turn around point. Caterham has never needed 4 tph off peak neither has Coulsdon Town.

They are trying to run 18tph in the peak using the lines through South Croydon. You simply can't run every combination of service that people may wish to have.

Running trains to Caterham and Coulsdon Town is really just about getting them out of the way. Terminating at Purley is probably a bit more awkward in terms of blocking other trains which I assume you would know more about than me.

 

[petersi]

Don't think you understand it doesn't have to be. That's what SDO is for, its just the GN isn't used to that.

I understand SDO. I understand that a 12 car train can stop at a 8 car platform.

What I think I am trying to say are there infrastructure limitations that limit its use Such as Points position so a train would block both fast and slow lines
Or say platform 4 at Welwyn garden City Where it could also block access or departures from platform 3?

 

[swt_passenger]

Those that use the Blackfriars to Ashford service that has existed for years would disagree of course.

I only meant in the context of this particular question, which is more to do with the Cambridge to London service described by table TL7.

 

[Class377/5]

I only meant in the context of this particular question, which is more to do with the Cambridge to London service described by table TL7.

Table for TL7 is for all users of that service not particular groups on that route so the information needs o be there. Remember this consultation is for lots of different groups.

 

[physics34]

They are trying to run 18tph in the peak using the lines through South Croydon. You simply can't run every combination of service that people may wish to have.

Running trains to Caterham and Coulsdon Town is really just about getting them out of the way. Terminating at Purley is probably a bit more awkward in terms of blocking other trains which I assume you would know more about than me.

Could 2 of the Caterham run to.Redhill/Reigate instead?

 

[RichardN]

One worrying thing is the Statement that Maidstone East service can't call at both Swanley and St Mary Cray due to tight turnaround times. Could the service be a bit fragile?

 

[swt_passenger]

Table for TL7 is for all users of that service not particular groups on that route so the information needs o be there. Remember this consultation is for lots of different groups.

I know, but here we seem to have people misinterpreting it completely because at a first glance it appears to show both a Cambridge to Maidstone service, and a separate Cambridge to Ashford service, which is not the case.

The table could have been written much clearer, and would have then avoided misreadings such as post #243 by AM9.

 

[Hadders]

I've had a look at the consultation - I found it on the Southern site but couldn't see it on the GN/TL site...

Some concerning things from the GN side of things:

- Permanent replacement buses between Stevenage and Watton at Stone. The A602/A119 roads are very congested at peak times. We really need line of sight on when the additional platform at Stevenage will be built.

- There hourly stopping service between London and Peterborough is withdrawn. The effect of this is that there will be no direct service between Potters Bar/Hatfield/Welwyn Garden City/Welwyn North/Knebworth and Hitchin/Arlesey/Biggleswade/Sandy/St Neots/Huntingdon/Peterborough.

Passengers wanting to travel between, say, Potters Bar and Peterborough will need to change at Stevenage with an 8 minute connection time northbound and 23 minutes connection southbound.

A journey from Knebworth to Hitchin currently takes 9 minutes, this will become 17 northbound and 32 southbound!

These parts of the proposals really aren't acceptable.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

To us along the Sydenham corridor it seems GTR have just said "stuff 'em". Although they admit Thameslink services would be very popular, its a bit too difficult to timetable. To add insult we'd be losing the direct link to East Croydon, telling 1600 people to change at Norwood daily and we'd get even more trains to West Croydon. This will not go down well.

I look forward to casting my eye over this when I get home.TBH I would rather change at Norwood Junction (assuming reasonable connection time) than at East Croydon simply because EC is too overcrowded and generally an awful station IMO. If TL services could stop at Norwood, I would be very happy.

I am hoping the 2tph will continue along the Sydenham corridor to/from East Croydon (or Norwood Jnc) as LO only work to Crystal Palace or West Croydon which is no good to anyone hoping to make a connection at East Croydon.

 

[crazystripe]

The consultation document separates GN Mainline (i.e. to Kings Cross) with the Thameslink services (i.e. to St Pancras).

It looks like Biggleswade, in particular, benefits from a much-improved "fast" peak service to/from KX, compared to what's currently offered. Today, there are fast departures from Biggs at 6.47 (stopping at Stevenage and KX) and 7.57 (non-stop KX) in the morning, and then in the evening peak, pretty much only the 18.40 departure from KX (non-stop to Biggleswade). From 2018, it seems that there will be 6 peak "fast" services both morning and evening. Whilst this seems great, I'm interested to know whether these are genuinely "new" services, or whether there is just a change to the stopping patterns of existing fast services (most of which are first stop Hitchin or St Neots when leaving KX) which would mean there will be some passengers whose "fast" services become somewhat slower (i.e. all services will now call Stevenage and Biggleswade before St Neots, and none will call at Hitchin). Any thoughts?

 

[Ianno87]

A journey from Knebworth to Hitchin currently takes 9 minutes, this will become 17 northbound and 32 southbound!

These parts of the proposals really aren't acceptable.

As I read the document, it looks like Knebworth to Hitchin will be served directly every half hour by service TL7 (Cambridge - Maidstone/Ashford), if I'm reading Page 20 of the main consultation document correctly?

 

[Hadders]

As I read the document, it looks like Knebworth to Hitchin will be served directly every half hour by service TL7 (Cambridge - Maidstone/Ashford), if I'm reading Page 20 of the main consultation document correctly?

Opps my bad Knebworth to Hitchin is the wrong example. The point stands though for journeys such as Potters Bar to Huntingdon, Knebworth to Arlesely, Welwyn Garden City to Biggleswade etc.

 

[ScotGG]

Maybe I'm missing the obvious but does it say whether the services along the Greenwich line would replace or compliment the services via Lewisham from Charlton?

 

[jon0844]

It's a shame there's only to be 1tph from Hatfield to London on a Sunday, in addition to the 4tph metro service (where you can change at Finsbury Park). While 8 car would be an improvement, it seems that there's ample capacity and an assumption that usage is low when in most cases it isn't.

1tph is also worrying if there remains the ongoing issues of staff shortages.