The 2019 General Election - Campaign Debate and Discussion

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NoMorePacers

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I agree with the principle - but funnily enough I had ten minutes from a Tory supporter yesterday about how anyone who votes for Corbyn must be completely round the bend, off their trolley, completely devoid of any understanding etc etc. It's a general problem that zealots in one party think that anyone who supports one of the others is less than human and I don't think you can just beat Labour up about it.
It's fundamentalism at its finest.
 
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Puffing Devil

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Two months ago I helped with the care of an elderly gentleman who had collapsed in the station car-park. He had a nasty cut on his head that we managed to control with a dressing. He was confused and needed to be seen in hospital. An ambulance, called on 999, would not come "for at least two hours". Two hours, for an ambulance for a man who had fallen and hit his head. After 30 minutes his daughter, who happened to be a nurse, arrived and drove him to A&E. I found out yesterday that he died two days after the incident due to a bleed on the brain that was not detected or treated.

Any society that cannot properly fund an ambulance service nor treat those in need in A&E in one of the richest countries in the world is a disgrace. If you vote Tory you will be enabling more of the same. People will continue to die.
 

Master29

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So, because Corbyn points out the wrong of the most appalling Government in living memory lead by a pathological liar and narcissist he's the villain. Yeah, I get that. Labour does have much to answer for but compared to the Tories they`re as pure as possible. Let`s Vote Tory then, which also begs the question why most of John Majors Government are urging people to turn away from this right wing cult. Turkeys and Christmas eh.....
 

Howardh

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So I've just voted and posted. I've never been so underwhelmed at voting and really wish there was a "none of the above" option - which would probably walk the election with a 650-seat majority! So depressing....
 

Howardh

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Two months ago I helped with the care of an elderly gentleman who had collapsed in the station car-park. He had a nasty cut on his head that we managed to control with a dressing. He was confused and needed to be seen in hospital. An ambulance, called on 999, would not come "for at least two hours". Two hours, for an ambulance for a man who had fallen and hit his head. After 30 minutes his daughter, who happened to be a nurse, arrived and drove him to A&E. I found out yesterday that he died two days after the incident due to a bleed on the brain that was not detected or treated.

Any society that cannot properly fund an ambulance service nor treat those in need in A&E in one of the richest countries in the world is a disgrace. If you vote Tory you will be enabling more of the same. People will continue to die.
You get what you pay for?
Although the alternative would be private ambulances where you can bid for faster response??
Nope, if we want a fully working system that's fit for this century we are gonna have to pay more taxes for it, and punish those using the service unnecessarily (and not turning up at appointments etc).
 

bramling

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Two months ago I helped with the care of an elderly gentleman who had collapsed in the station car-park. He had a nasty cut on his head that we managed to control with a dressing. He was confused and needed to be seen in hospital. An ambulance, called on 999, would not come "for at least two hours". Two hours, for an ambulance for a man who had fallen and hit his head. After 30 minutes his daughter, who happened to be a nurse, arrived and drove him to A&E. I found out yesterday that he died two days after the incident due to a bleed on the brain that was not detected or treated.

Any society that cannot properly fund an ambulance service nor treat those in need in A&E in one of the richest countries in the world is a disgrace. If you vote Tory you will be enabling more of the same. People will continue to die.
One incident doesn’t prove that a service is inadequate though. It would of course help if the ambulance service wasn’t bogged down dealing with the constant stream of alcohol-induced incidents, as seen in many towns and cities particularly in the evenings.
 

Master29

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You get what you pay for?
Although the alternative would be private ambulances where you can bid for faster response??
Nope, if we want a fully working system that's fit for this century we are gonna have to pay more taxes for it, and punish those using the service unnecessarily (and not turning up at appointments etc).
Except when it comes to illegal wars it seems. There seems to be endless money for that.
 

AlterEgo

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I agree with the principle - but funnily enough I had ten minutes from a Tory supporter yesterday about how anyone who votes for Corbyn must be completely round the bend, off their trolley, completely devoid of any understanding etc etc. It's a general problem that zealots in one party think that anyone who supports one of the others is less than human and I don't think you can just beat Labour up about it.
The zealotry runs across parties, but I find more conservative voters tend to paint their political opponents as naive, or stupid, or militant, disenchanted, and so on. I don't usually see Tory voters claiming Labour voters have no compassion or morality (though that claim is often levelled at Corbyn himself) - I think the allegation that you don't have basic humanity cuts much deeper than anything the right wing level at people.
 

AlterEgo

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People being paid less than the minimum wage because they are disabled is 'a good idea'?!
Let me give you one example.

People who are so disabled there is no meaningful work they can be effective at for minimum wage might benefit from the therapy of light work. As an example - there are a couple of cafes in my town run by volunteers on behalf of a charity which houses adults with Down Syndrome. You're served by adults with very severe developmental disabilities who are under constant supervision. These adults aren't paid a wage as such but are volunteers. I think it would be nice if they were paid and gained a little more self-worth and independence, but it should be noted they are already getting the former just by volunteering.

There's a Costa up the road which runs on two staff most of the day; there are about six or seven in the charity's cafe. It is just not feasible to pay all those people even the national minimum wage.

If these people with severe learning difficulties are able to do the job to the same standard as anyone else, then yes - absolutely, pay them a proper wage. But work undertaken under heavy supervision for therapy or independence can rarely be treated as such.
 

Puffing Devil

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One incident doesn’t prove that a service is inadequate though. It would of course help if the ambulance service wasn’t bogged down dealing with the constant stream of alcohol-induced incidents, as seen in many towns and cities particularly in the evenings.
This was around 11am in the morning, not much call for alcohol-related support then. I think that, in this case, the service was inadequate. 2 Hours delay is not acceptable in any case.

If you don't believe me, have a look at the Daily Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...mbulance-diverts-doubled-19-20-beds-full.html or just have a quick search on "Ambulance Service Crisis" and see what pops up.

I've seen documentary programs that have highlighted the issue, BBC "Ambulance", for example, though nothing hits home until you're with someone in crisis in a supposedly rich and developed country and can't get help. It's appalling.

That anyone is prepared to support a party that has run the NHS into the ground over 9 years is beyond belief.

A little more food for thought https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...-forced-sleep-floor-lgi-due-lack-beds-1334909

Shocking photo shows Leeds four-year-old with suspected pneumonia forced to sleep on floor of LGI due to lack of beds

(Yorkshire Post)
This is what happens when you cut health services beyond the bone. This is what happens when you vote Tory.
 

Puffing Devil

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You get what you pay for?
Although the alternative would be private ambulances where you can bid for faster response??
Nope, if we want a fully working system that's fit for this century we are gonna have to pay more taxes for it, and punish those using the service unnecessarily (and not turning up at appointments etc).
Then you have a choice - pay more tax and have a better society, or continue giving tax cuts and have an ambulance lottery - hoping it's not you in the station car park.
 

ainsworth74

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One incident doesn’t prove that a service is inadequate though. It would of course help if the ambulance service wasn’t bogged down dealing with the constant stream of alcohol-induced incidents, as seen in many towns and cities particularly in the evenings.
This was around 11am in the morning, not much call for alcohol-related support then. I think that, in this case, the service was inadequate. 2 Hours delay is not acceptable in any case.
About a month or so ago in my work place we had a lady brought in by a colleague of mine who had been on lunch and found her in the street bleeding from a head wound (walked into an open window). We got the bleeding under control using a dressing and phoned for an ambulance and were told it would be a two hour wait for an ambulance. This would have been around midday, in the centre of the largest town in the area about a ten minute drive from the regional major trauma centre and A&E hospital.

Two. Hours.

Thankfully the ambulance did turn up quicker than two hours but it shouldn't even have been a question that the wait could be that long in that sort of location.
 

Busaholic

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Two months ago I helped with the care of an elderly gentleman who had collapsed in the station car-park. He had a nasty cut on his head that we managed to control with a dressing. He was confused and needed to be seen in hospital. An ambulance, called on 999, would not come "for at least two hours". Two hours, for an ambulance for a man who had fallen and hit his head. After 30 minutes his daughter, who happened to be a nurse, arrived and drove him to A&E. I found out yesterday that he died two days after the incident due to a bleed on the brain that was not detected or treated.

Any society that cannot properly fund an ambulance service nor treat those in need in A&E in one of the richest countries in the world is a disgrace. If you vote Tory you will be enabling more of the same. People will continue to die.
I did two things for the first time in my life on a Saturday night a month ago, the first thing being to dial 111 in the hope of getting to see a doctor, or at the very least to speak to one, then, having been informed that there was no prospect of either of those alternatives, the person on the end of the phone decided that I needed to be taken in an ambulance to hospital, 25 miles away, and she offered to arrange this for me. This was at 10.15 p.m. At 12.45, I rang 999 myself to be told I was 'on the system' but they were very busy and would call me just prior to attending to me. At 2 a.m. I rang again, to have the same mantra repeated, so rang 111 again to say that, on balance, I felt better off crawling up to bed and hope that I felt considerably better in the morning. The 111 person (different to the one I first spoke to) advised against this, at least without a doctor's say-so, and could I hold on while she raised one? After five minutes, she came back to say there wasn't one available, so I asked her to unarrange the ambulance. She was reluctant ('on your own head be it') but I insisted.Luckily for me, my hernia didn't in the event prove to be strangulated, it was a combination of my M.S. and the hernia causing me agony, but it had abated by the morning, despite no sleep, and wasn't life threatening. I'm over 70 and, for most of my life, have scarcely bothered the NHS, but in the last twelve months my body has gradually taken it upon itself to cease to function in many regards, and I hate to cause a fuss, put myself to the front of the queue, or the other cliches (I'd much rather do this on behalf of others) but. I'm afraid, the NHS is falling apart despite the (mostly) marvellous, overworked, underpaid staff, because each part works independently of the others and co-ordination is not part of the scheme of things. On BBC News last week, Boris Johnson was shown sitting in a circle with a group of staff at West Cornwall Hospital, trying to convince his very unamused, cynical-looking audience of his grandiose plans for the NHS. The nurse sitting next to him and expressing scepticism, asking a question he couldn't answer, was one I'd spent ninety minutes with the previous day in the Urgent Care Centre and who I got along well with, and we both discussed some personal details of our life. She was not only extremely caring and professional but a thoroughly nice person, struggling financially, and it sickened me to see Johnson giving her some patronising guff just because we live in a top marginal seat.
 

507021

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About a month or so ago in my work place we had a lady brought in by a colleague of mine who had been on lunch and found her in the street bleeding from a head wound (walked into an open window). We got the bleeding under control using a dressing and phoned for an ambulance and were told it would be a two hour wait for an ambulance. This would have been around midday, in the centre of the largest town in the area about a ten minute drive from the regional major trauma centre and A&E hospital.

Two. Hours.

Thankfully the ambulance did turn up quicker than two hours but it shouldn't even have been a question that the wait could be that long in that sort of location.
About five weeks ago, my 83-year-old father had the symptoms of a serious chest infection and also banged his head after falling out of bed. After calling 111, the advisor decided he needed to go into hospital, and he had to wait three and a half hours for an ambulance.

The ambulance which eventually arrived actually came from the Wirral as there still weren't any available in Liverpool.

Fortunately, he's now (finally) back to his usual self.
 

DarloRich

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the stores above about the NHS are exactly the same as in the 80's and 90's. That is what the Tories do. The real anger here should be that because of Corbyn and his unelectable clown army we will be stuck with the Tories rather than a sensible Labour government. If you support or facilitate Corbyn you are just as guilty as the Tories for what is happening.

I wonder if you will admit that and come Friday look for a more electable leader?
 

507021

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the stores above about the NHS are exactly the same as in the 80's and 90's. That is what the Tories do. The real anger here should be that because of Corbyn and his unelectable clown army we will be stuck with the Tories rather than a sensible Labour government. If you support or facilitate Corbyn you are just as guilty as the Tories for what is happening.

I wonder if you will admit that and come Friday look for a more electable leader?
Personally, I think if Keir Starmer was leader, a Labour government would be imminent.

But at the moment, I'm not very confident of Labour winning next week at all.
 

Puffing Devil

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the stores above about the NHS are exactly the same as in the 80's and 90's. That is what the Tories do. The real anger here should be that because of Corbyn and his unelectable clown army we will be stuck with the Tories rather than a sensible Labour government. If you support or facilitate Corbyn you are just as guilty as the Tories for what is happening.

I wonder if you will admit that and come Friday look for a more electable leader?
I get it. You hate Corbyn. I can't believe your hatred has now got to the stage of blaming the opposition for not being attractive enough, instead of those doing the damage?

Come Friday there is a stark choice - vote Tory and allow this to continue, or vote for the unattractive opposition. That's it. Choose not to vote, choose to vote for a party that is not the prime contender to win or unseat a Tory is a decision to let this continue.
 

bramling

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I get it. You hate Corbyn. I can't believe your hatred has now got to the stage of blaming the opposition for not being attractive enough, instead of those doing the damage?

Come Friday there is a stark choice - vote Tory and allow this to continue, or vote for the unattractive opposition. That's it. Choose not to vote, choose to vote for a party that is not the prime contender to win or unseat a Tory is a decision to let this continue.
Reality is many people don’t just view the opposition as unattractive, but utterly unelectable. The Conservatives in their current form are seen by many as the least worst option currently on offer, which may or may not prove sufficient to propel them to a modest victory on Thursday.

In my view it’s quite reasonable to blame Labour for failing to provide a more saleable pitch. Corbyn’s current line smacks of desperation - the polls are against him and on age grounds if nothing else he will probably be gone soon if he doesn’t win a majority at this election. In this position anything’s worth a go, hence the increasingly crazy pledges.

Britain is a centre-ground country - Blair and Cameron understood that, Corbyn doesn’t. It’s no good trying to foist upon the country something which the majority simply don’t want. Same can be said for Britain’s relationship with the EU.
 

DarloRich

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I get it. You hate Corbyn. I can't believe your hatred has now got to the stage of blaming the opposition for not being attractive enough, instead of those doing the damage?

Come Friday there is a stark choice - vote Tory and allow this to continue, or vote for the unattractive opposition. That's it. Choose not to vote, choose to vote for a party that is not the prime contender to win or unseat a Tory is a decision to let this continue.
I will vote for the other guy thanks. Like you and others told me time and time and time again.

I note there is not an iota of thought that Corbyn could be a problem. Everyone else is the problem. Not the magic Gandapa and his crack pot views. Everyone who fails to understand his brilliance is evil. It is tiresome. And, yes, it IS the job of the opposition to present a credible alternative stance on which to deliver government. That needs a credible leader and a credible policy platform. Labour have neither a credible leader nor a policy platform the majority are interested in.

It is amazing how you wish to stress that you are not a Corbyn fan yet spend ages defending him and parroting the same kind of lines his clown army churn out. Me thinks you protest to much!

BTW i don't hate Corbyn. I despair. It is awful that we are in a a position where the choice is the liar Johnson or the crackpot Corbyn. Neither are worthy. Therefore I wont vote for either. Sadly, unlike you, I am merely human and not able to pretend Corbyn is worthy of my vote.
 

DarloRich

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Personally, I think if Keir Starmer was leader, a Labour government would be imminent.

But at the moment, I'm not very confident of Labour winning next week at all.
I think if Labour had a half credible leader they would be in with a chance because Johnson is so awful. The problem is they don't and i fear they wont until the Corbyn clowns are all flushed out. Look how long it took last time!
 

Cowley

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Reality is many people don’t just view the opposition as unattractive, but utterly unelectable. The Conservatives in their current form are seen by many as the least worst option currently on offer, which may or may not prove sufficient to propel them to a modest victory on Thursday.

In my view it’s quite reasonable to blame Labour for failing to provide a more saleable pitch. Corbyn’s current line smacks of desperation - the polls are against him and on age grounds if nothing else he will probably be gone soon if he doesn’t win a majority at this election. In this position anything’s worth a go, hence the increasingly crazy pledges.

Britain is a centre-ground country - Blair and Cameron understood that, Corbyn doesn’t. It’s no good trying to foist upon the country something which the majority simply don’t want. Same can be said for Britain’s relationship with the EU.
I personally assume that Labour will probably looking for a new leader by the weekend.
It’ll be interesting to see who they go for, but it’s quite telling that most of the potential main players (people like Kier Starmer etc) seem to have kept themselves fairly low key on the run up to this election.
 

Puffing Devil

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Reality is many people don’t just view the opposition as unattractive, but utterly unelectable. The Conservatives in their current form are seen by many as the least worst option currently on offer, which may or may not prove sufficient to propel them to a modest victory on Thursday.

In my view it’s quite reasonable to blame Labour for failing to provide a more saleable pitch. Corbyn’s current line smacks of desperation - the polls are against him and on age grounds if nothing else he will probably be gone soon if he doesn’t win a majority at this election. In this position anything’s worth a go, hence the increasingly crazy pledges.

Britain is a centre-ground country - Blair and Cameron understood that, Corbyn doesn’t. It’s no good trying to foist upon the country something which the majority simply don’t want. Same can be said for Britain’s relationship with the EU.
The only reason the Conservatives are polling so highly is the number of people willing to sacrifice wealth and health on the altar of Brexit - take Brexit out of the equation and the result would be very different.
 

Puffing Devil

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I think if Labour had a half credible leader they would be in with a chance because Johnson is so awful. The problem is they don't and i fear they wont until the Corbyn clowns are all flushed out. Look how long it took last time!
I take it you'll be enabling a Tory win in your constituency, then?
 

DarloRich

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I personally assume that Labour will probably looking for a new leader by the weekend.
It’ll be interesting to see who they go for, but it’s quite telling that most of the potential main players (people like Kier Starmer etc) seem to have kept themselves fairly low key on the run up to this election.
the problem for Labour is that the machinery of the party and the majority of the membership are in the Corbyn club. They will elect someone similar although hopefully less of a crackpot. They key for these people is control of the machinery of the party, not winning power.
 

DarloRich

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I take it you'll be enabling a Tory win in your constituency, then?
Admitting that that is really important to you isn't it? As if that removes the scrutiny as to WHY the Tories are going to win. It is really, really boring. BTW how do you know i am not registered to vote somewhere where the SNP are going to win. Does that enable a Tory government?
 

bramling

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The only reason the Conservatives are polling so highly is the number of people willing to sacrifice wealth and health on the altar of Brexit - take Brexit out of the equation and the result would be very different.
Evidence for this? In my experience many voters are concerned by what Corbyn might do with things like taxation, crime or immigration.
 

Cowley

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the problem for Labour is that the machinery of the party and the majority of the membership are in the Corbyn club. They will elect someone similar although hopefully less of a crackpot. They key for these people is control of the machinery of the party, not winning power.
Head in hands and close to tears right now...
I’ll be voting Labour where I am because that candidate was the nearest to taking the very unpleasant Mel Stride’s seat off him last time.
In all honesty it’s a waste of time though and even though I suppose that I’m basically more Labour than anything else I have a fairly high degree of anger at the what the Labour Party have made themselves into this last few years.
 

Puffing Devil

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Admitting that that is really important to you isn't it? As if that removes the scrutiny as to WHY the Tories are going to win. It is really, really boring. BTW how do you know i am not registered to vote somewhere where the SNP are going to win. Does that enable a Tory government?
Yes, it is. We all have a choice to make about how our society will be in the next five years and beyond. You're either happy with a Tory government or you're not.

Would returning an SNP candidate, or green, or Lib Dem, build a Tory majority? I think you have your answer.
 
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