The 2019 General Election - Campaign Debate and Discussion

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AlterEgo

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Personally, I think if Keir Starmer was leader, a Labour government would be imminent.

But at the moment, I'm not very confident of Labour winning next week at all.
People talk about Starmer a lot. He’s a decent bloke although I know little about him. If Labour were rid of what is basically a resurgence of the militant tendency, I - and I suspect millions of others - would vote for them.

Blair is rightly maligned for his awful record in Iraq, but until September 2001 he was a very good prime minister and his government did far more good than bad.
 
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DarloRich

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Yes, it is. We all have a choice to make about how our society will be in the next five years and beyond. You're either happy with a Tory government or you're not.

Would returning an SNP candidate, or green, or Lib Dem, build a Tory majority? I think you have your answer.
People are not happy with a Tory government. The question you should ask, instead of trying to occupy some pretend moral high ground, is why they wont vote for your man Corbyn

I suspect looking at your posts you cant get beyond some "msm" conspiracy. The truth us somewhat different.

Ps this overwhelming desire to have clean hands and blame everyone but Corbyn is really really boring but seems of vital importance to you. I bet you can't wait to say I told you so but i wasnt responsible!

It is dull student union politics writ large.
 

Puffing Devil

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People are not happy with a Tory government. The question you should ask, instead of trying to occupy some pretend moral high ground, is why they wont vote for your man Corbyn

I suspect looking at your posts you cant get beyond some "msm" conspiracy. The truth us somewhat different.

Ps this overwhelming desire to have clean hands and blame everyone but Corbyn is really really boring but seems of vital importance to you. I bet you can't wait to say I told you so but i wasnt responsible!

It is dull student union politics writ large.
As you read my posts, you should have seen this:

I've posted this before - I am in no way, shape, or form a fan of Corbyn or his leadership. My politics are clearly left-leaning and it was regret (as Alan Sugar would say) that I resigned my Labour Party membership in 2017 as I was very unhappy with the direction it was heading and the p!ss poor Brexit performance. I do despair at the state of the party now, it should be a slam dunk with the duplicitous Boris Johnson, a PM who sends his Dad out to defend him for not showing at a debate and then again on live TV this morning.

As for me, the choice in the election is very clear. Enable a Tory win in your own constituency by voting for them, if you're happy with the party and what they stand for or vote for the best-placed opposition party, even if you're not 100% behind them.
Rather than trying the Boris Dead Cat on the Table post to deflect attention yet again, perhaps you could answer the question that you continue to dodge more effectively than a Tory PM evading an Andrew Neil interview: Are you voting for the Tories, or for the next candidate that could realistically stop them?
 

JamesT

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Imagine this: You're disabled. You suffer from something such as arthritis or another problem that is similar. Some days you can't even hold a pen, let alone walk 5 yards. Every 5 years you are subject to a humiliating assessment by a company such as Capita, when you risk losing your personal independence payment because someone who does not understand your condition thinks you're fit to work.
Work Capability Assessment, introduced by Labour in 2008. Would you rather the decision of whether someone is eligible be made by their GP? How much pressure are they going to be under to sign off their patient, even if they think they’re not eligible? The current system has its flaws, but aren’t the principles of an independent decision based on what someone is capable of regularly reviewed the right ones?

Imagine this: You're a woman born in the 50s. You were expecting to retire at 60 as that was what you were told. You're 59. Now you're told it could be 65, 66 or 67 before you can claim your state pension.
If you were still expecting a pension at 60, you weren’t paying attention for the last 25 years. Pension age equalisation was set in the Pensions Act 1995. Surely ending sex discrimination is something to be applauded?

Imagine this: you're a student, having to pay £9k a year to get a degree in order to get a decent job. You're burdened with nearly £30k or more of debt over your working like.
The debt may look large, but it’s fairly irrelevant. You’re not paying anything until you earn a reasonable salary and are only a small percentage of the salary over the threshold. It’s written off after a period of time or if you become permanently unfit for work.
The introduction of fees (Labour) have allowed more people than ever to go to University, more people from disadvantaged backgrounds go in England with fees than Scotland where there aren’t.

These are real examples which have happened under the last 9 years of Tory and Coalition rule.
I think you need to fix your list if you’re going to claim all of these for the last 9 years.
 

DarloRich

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As you read my posts, you should have seen this:
I have read every word you have written. I just dont believe you. I think you protest to much and rather oddly for someone who says he isnt a Corbyn fan parrots exactly the same lines they do!


Rather than trying the Boris Dead Cat on the Table post to deflect attention yet again, perhaps you could answer the question that you continue to dodge more effectively than a Tory PM evading an Andrew Neil interview: Are you voting for the Tories, or for the next candidate that could realistically stop them?
I have told you several times now: I have never nor will never vote Tory.

I will vote for whomever I please and won't be shamed into voting for you man Corbyn. I haven't decided who will get my vote but I have decided who wont get it.

I note, once again, that your tiresome desire to hold some pretend moral high ground shows through. Blaming people for rejecting your man Corbyn is all important to you. Having people to blame and generating some "stab in the back" myth will no doubt leave you all warm and fuzzy inside

Sadly I suspect you are incapable of looking at why people are rejecting your man Corbyn. Perhaps you could try........
 

bussnapperwm

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Work Capability Assessment, introduced by Labour in 2008. Would you rather the decision of whether someone is eligible be made by their GP? How much pressure are they going to be under to sign off their patient, even if they think they’re not eligible? The current system has its flaws, but aren’t the principles of an independent decision based on what someone is capable of regularly reviewed the right ones?
A GP has access to their patients record, has dealings with that patient on a regular basis, so they are more suited to give a medical assessment of someone than an assessor from Capita.

If you were still expecting a pension at 60, you weren’t paying attention for the last 25 years. Pension age equalisation was set in the Pensions Act 1995. Surely ending sex discrimination is something to be applauded?
So the numerous cases of the WASPI women who haven't even had a single communication from the government should sit down and shut up. They deserve compensating for the fact that they've been materially misled by two Tory governments.

Plus women traditionally didn't work as long because as well as working, they raised a family as well. Unless you want the population to die out.

the debt may look large, but it’s fairly irrelevant. You’re not paying anything until you earn a reasonable salary and are only a small percentage of the salary over the threshold. It’s written off after a period of time or if you become permanently unfit for work.
The introduction of fees (Labour) have allowed more people than ever to go to University, more people from disadvantaged backgrounds go in England with fees than Scotland where there aren’t.
But at least the fees under labour were not as high as what the coalition put them up to. And then who bares the cost of write offs of them? The taxpayer. Debt is still debt.

I think you need to fix your list if you’re going to claim all of these for the last 9 years.
I think you need to look back at the last 9 years and how this country has suffered, and how it will suffer even more if Boris and his babbling bumbling band of baboons. I've seen these things.

One of my relatives has arthritis and I've seen what their condition has been on both a good and a bad day. They had to take their PIP assessment to Tribunal as the assessor from Capita said they weren't eligible, even though they couldn't even walk to the front door of their house.

I've worked in the public sector since 2007, since I left school, opting for a trade (customer service and administration) rather than further education. I've seen colleagues leave and not been replaced because of there not being enough money in the department to replacement because of Austerity.

I've dealt with customer enquiries, some of which is something that is dealt with the Police, but when I've redirected customers to the local police, I've been told that the Police have told those customers that they don't/can't deal with it.

A friend of mine tried to visit their local CAB to find out that they are now only open 3 days a week.

Yet you see in the news about the likes of Richard Branson, Roman Abramovich, Phillip Green and Mike Ashley buying up everything they can, yet you've got people on the bread line having to use food banks.

I am really worried because if Boris gets back in, he will make our country even poorer with a potential no deal Brexit.

I am really worried, because he wants to break trade unions, reduce workers rights and cause even more jobs to be lost. In my 12 years of employment, I've been a union member for 11 of them, and I don't appreciate my rights as a worker eroded.

I am really worried, because Johnson wants to sell off our NHS in a salami style process, slice by slice. Meaning that people like my relative above, or my late grandfather, who had 2 strokes in his life, would have to pay a fortune for their treatments.

There again, for people like Johnson and Rees-Mogg, they are probably in a similar opinion of Scrooge, that if the very bottom of our country would rather die, they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.
 

cactustwirly

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Yes, it is. We all have a choice to make about how our society will be in the next five years and beyond. You're either happy with a Tory government or you're not.

Would returning an SNP candidate, or green, or Lib Dem, build a Tory majority? I think you have your answer.
I think you're forgetting that it's almost impossible for Corbyn to win a majority at this election.
Anyway the Lib Dems can take seats off the Tories that otherwise wouldn't be won by Labour
 

ainsworth74

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Work Capability Assessment, introduced by Labour in 2008. Would you rather the decision of whether someone is eligible be made by their GP? How much pressure are they going to be under to sign off their patient, even if they think they’re not eligible? The current system has its flaws, but aren’t the principles of an independent decision based on what someone is capable of regularly reviewed the right ones?
I mean the current system is killing people so I'm not sure you can just describe it as being "flawed":

The family of a man who spent the last 18 months of his life fighting a decision that he was fit to work have won his case – seven months after he died.

Jeff Hayward, from Clitheroe, Lancashire, was 52 when he died of a heart attack in June last year, two weeks before he was due to go to a disability benefit appeal tribunal.

The father-of-two and grandfather had cellulitis, a painful bacterial skin infection, on his legs and his GP deemed him unfit to work. Nevertheless, in November 2016 after he lost his job of more than 25 years, he was refused employment support allowance (ESA) after a health assessor awarded him no disability points.
Link

A severely ill man who was deemed “fit for work” even though he weighed 6st and was unable to walk for 20 metres without collapsing with pain and exhaustion has died, prompting claims that he was “let down” by the welfare system.

Stephen Smith, who suffered from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and osteoarthritis, made headlines earlier this year when photographs emerged of him emaciated in hospital after pneumonia left him unable to walk.

The 64-year-old Liverpudlian, who worked all his adult working life, had never claimed benefits prior to falling ill.

But he had his employment and support allowance (ESA) payments stopped after a work capability assessment in 2017 found him “fit for work”.
Link

If it were me I'd suggest we'd be doing a lot better asking GPs to be the ones making these decisions considering that they'll be less likely to determine that their patients who are extremely ill are likely fit for work and then hasten their death. But what do I know? I just have to pick up the pieces of this flawed system day after day and try and explain to someone why the fact that their partner, sibling or carer made sure that they were clean, well dressed and fed was used against them to deny them their benefits. Or why holding a carrier bag containing the couple of bits of paper that they were told to bring with them was used to show that their arthritis was only mild. Or why their report talks about examinations that never happened or omits to mention things that did such as their partner linking arms with them or their sibling consoling them whilst their cried their eyes out due to the stress of the whole process.

The system is more than flawed and whilst the principle of an independent assessment might be a good one it will take more than a tweak to fix what is rotten at the core of the current one. Now if you excuse me I need to go and try and help some other poor soul who has been at the receiving end of one of these 'assessments'.
 

433N

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I'm wondering more and more whether to vote Tory.

If the poor unemployed of Grimsby or Sunderland or sink estates of Manchester are prepared to vote 'Boris' then perhaps what they need is a bit more suffering and then perhaps they will grow some awareness of which party is actually responsible for the misery in their lives through the misguided economics of austerity.

Of course, I won't vote Tory because I am in Scotland. I used to believe that the people of Scotland had alot in common with the people of Northern England due to the war that was waged on Industrial Britain by Thatcher and her followers. That has changed. Whatever their faults, the SNP has incessantly reminded us by using the politics of grievance that we are really not 'all in it together' (as is blindingly obvious). I don't know why the people of Northern England think we are.

The idea of 'One Nation Conservatism' is a complete fantasy ; it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sick. This is the party that was happy to label (Northern) working class people who showed dissent as 'The Enemy Within'. I've never heard an apology for that.
 

Howardh

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Regarding 111; if you are in England using skype, it somehow directs you to the Scottish 111 who in turn then redirect you to England! But anyhow I have had my mum, ill, and not got anywhere with them when all I want is to speak to a doctor.
However on the positive side, when out-of-hours if I ring my own doctor it will give the local BARDOC number who then arrange a doctor to call back, call at home or an ambulance - and when mum was ill we had the ambulance here within 20 mins of calling BARDOC.
http://bardoc.co.uk


Who we are

As an experienced provider of GP Out of Hours services across Bolton, Bury, Heywood, Middleton and Rochdale, BARDOC Ltd has a long history of delivering high-quality, safe services in the North West of England. Our unrivalled experience and understanding of the locality and the needs of patients means we are uniquely placed to help Clinical Commissioners transform their delivery of Urgent and Primary Care Services.

In addition we provide the following complimentary range of services to the local NHS:

  • Out of Hours Emergency Dental Services for Bolton, Bury and HMR.
  • Stability partner to Bolton CCG for the emergency provision of their GP out of hours service.
  • Single Point of Access for HMR Community Services.
  • Acute Visiting Services for Heywood Middleton and Rochdale CCG.
  • Alternative To Transfer for Heywood, Middleton and Rochdale and Bury CCGs.
  • Pennine Care Direct Services for Greater Manchester North East Sector.
  • Seasonal Winter Pressure services.
  • Take Home and Tuck Up Service (a bespoke Patient Transport service).
 

Puffing Devil

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I have read every word you have written. I just dont believe you. I think you protest to much and rather oddly for someone who says he isnt a Corbyn fan parrots exactly the same lines they do!




I have told you several times now: I have never nor will never vote Tory.

I will vote for whomever I please and won't be shamed into voting for you man Corbyn. I haven't decided who will get my vote but I have decided who wont get it.

I note, once again, that your tiresome desire to hold some pretend moral high ground shows through. Blaming people for rejecting your man Corbyn is all important to you. Having people to blame and generating some "stab in the back" myth will no doubt leave you all warm and fuzzy inside

Sadly I suspect you are incapable of looking at why people are rejecting your man Corbyn. Perhaps you could try........
Wow!

I have never been called a liar before on this forum. Be very careful where you go with this as you are on the edge of libel.

I'm happy to engage in debate, though you have now crossed a line with the ultimate dead cat on the table. I'll just leave it here and let others draw their own conclusions.
 

Puffing Devil

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I'm wondering more and more whether to vote Tory.

If the poor unemployed of Grimsby or Sunderland or sink estates of Manchester are prepared to vote 'Boris' then perhaps what they need is a bit more suffering and then perhaps they will grow some awareness of which party is actually responsible for the misery in their lives through the misguided economics of austerity.

Of course, I won't vote Tory because I am in Scotland. I used to believe that the people of Scotland had alot in common with the people of Northern England due to the war that was waged on Industrial Britain by Thatcher and her followers. That has changed. Whatever their faults, the SNP has incessantly reminded us by using the politics of grievance that we are really not 'all in it together' (as is blindingly obvious). I don't know why the people of Northern England think we are.

The idea of 'One Nation Conservatism' is a complete fantasy ; it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sick. This is the party that was happy to label (Northern) working class people who showed dissent as 'The Enemy Within'. I've never heard an apology for that.
Grimsby is my home town. There has been a huge decline in the town with the decline in the fishing fleet, which started with the "cod war" with Iceland and then the commoditisation of fishing quotas. The fleet owners have been happy to sell and the workers have, again, suffered. The reality is that the historic grounds have gone, the quotas have been sold and the EU has been tagged as the bogeyman. Despite the investment in the town by the EU, the pain of the lost fishing overrides it all. There will be no massive upsurge in fishing when we leave the EU, there will be less cash for investment, public services will not improve and the town will continue to decline.

Ironically, the one industry that has grown, offshore energy, will be hit by customs tariffs and is also likely to move any production for Europe away from the town.
 

Puffing Devil

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I think you're forgetting that it's almost impossible for Corbyn to win a majority at this election.
Anyway the Lib Dems can take seats off the Tories that otherwise wouldn't be won by Labour
For those that want a Tory government, jog on past this post.

If you do not want a Tory government, then you need to vote tactically in your constituency for the candidate that is not a Tory who is most likely to win. I personally don't care who is elected, I do not want Brexit, the harm it will bring to our country nor the continuing Tory destruction of the welfare state.
 

Pyreneenguy

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It's looking more and more likely that Boris's simplstic "Get Brexit Done" has won over the equally simplstic previously Labour leave voters to give the Conservatives an overall majority with around 40% of the popular vote. Dark days for democracy. Taking the country down a disastrous road that over 50% of the country disagree with.

Well done ! You're going to get your Brexit.

Puffing Devil : even the dumbest amongst us have understood that if Labour lose to Boris's Conservatives, it's because of Corbyn. As a person, I have deep respect for him but I simply cannot adhere to his outdated brand of Socialism, much the same as a huge majority of the UK.

As a convinced European' I'll have to choose between taking French nationality or a 10 year residents permit. There is every chance that Boris will f*** things up in the upcoming free-trade negotiations, so perhaps becoming French is a safer option.
 

AlterEgo

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It's looking more and more likely that Boris's simplstic "Get Brexit Done" has won over the equally simplstic previously Labour leave voters to give the Conservatives an overall majority with around 40% of the popular vote. Dark days for democracy.
Honouring a referendum vote is not a dark day for democracy. It may not be a good decision, but it ought to be honoured. The people were asked, and they made their decision.
 

Puffing Devil

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Puffing Devil : even the dumbest amongst us have understood that if Labour lose to Boris's Conservatives, it's because of Corbyn. As a person, I have deep respect for him but I simply cannot adhere to his outdated brand of Socialism, much the same as a huge majority of the UK.
I don't disagree with this at all. He's toxic as a leader for many people - I believe that he supports Brexit and is happy to see it through.
 

edwin_m

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Honouring a referendum vote is not a dark day for democracy. It may not be a good decision, but it ought to be honoured. The people were asked, and they made their decision.
The people were hoodwinked by Johnson and others. What is proposed now is completely different from what was depicted in 2016. And there were not just broken promises but many actual lies by the Leave campaign, including the £350m a week figure that was disputed by the statistics agency, and the claim that the UK couldn't stop Turkey joining the EU.

Why should we cut off our noses to spite our faces, when it was clearly the wrong decision and a majority now oppose it? We can get redress for being mis-sold PPI, so why can't the country get redress when we have been mis-sold a rotten decision? We should call out these liars and ask the people again based on what we know now. How can that be undemocratic?
 

muddythefish

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Grimsby is my home town. There has been a huge decline in the town with the decline in the fishing fleet, which started with the "cod war" with Iceland and then the commoditisation of fishing quotas. The fleet owners have been happy to sell and the workers have, again, suffered. The reality is that the historic grounds have gone, the quotas have been sold and the EU has been tagged as the bogeyman. Despite the investment in the town by the EU, the pain of the lost fishing overrides it all. There will be no massive upsurge in fishing when we leave the EU, there will be less cash for investment, public services will not improve and the town will continue to decline.

Ironically, the one industry that has grown, offshore energy, will be hit by customs tariffs and is also likely to move any production for Europe away from the town.

And that investment by the EU will not be replaced by Westminster funding after Brexit. The London-based Treasury will not spend money on areas that it sees as "unproductive", ie almost everywhere outside London and the SE.
 

SteveP29

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A good idea poorly articulated.
How is it a good idea?
Why should somebody, however disabled, who is able to do a job the same way as a fully able bodied individual or anybody who is more intellectually challenged than a 'normal' person but is able to do the job in the same way and to the same standard as that 'normal' person, be paid less than that 'normal' person?

Are you really suggesting that it's actually OK to create an actual underclass?

If somebody can do a job, pay them the bloody going rate, there's simply no debate about it.
 

AlterEgo

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How is it a good idea?
Why should somebody, however disabled, who is able to do a job the same way as a fully able bodied individual or anybody who is more intellectually challenged than a 'normal' person but is able to do the job in the same way and to the same standard as that 'normal' person, be paid less than that 'normal' person?

Are you really suggesting that it's actually OK to create an actual underclass?

If somebody can do a job, pay them the bloody going rate, there's simply no debate about it.
Silly. You quite literally didn’t read my post about it and you don’t understand the issues.
 

DarloRich

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How is it a good idea?
Why should somebody, however disabled, who is able to do a job the same way as a fully able bodied individual or anybody who is more intellectually challenged than a 'normal' person but is able to do the job in the same way and to the same standard as that 'normal' person, be paid less than that 'normal' person?

Are you really suggesting that it's actually OK to create an actual underclass?

If somebody can do a job, pay them the bloody going rate, there's simply no debate about it.
i think if you read the further post @AlterEgo made the detail might become clear. His point is the same as yours.
 

SteveP29

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Work Capability Assessment, introduced by Labour in 2008. Would you rather the decision of whether someone is eligible be made by their GP? How much pressure are they going to be under to sign off their patient, even if they think they’re not eligible? The current system has its flaws, but aren’t the principles of an independent decision based on what someone is capable of regularly reviewed the right ones?
Yours and every others' GP has a duty to be truthful at all times, if they were to exaggerate or falsely claim a medical condition in one of their patients, they'd be struck off and would never work in medicine again

The debt may look large, but it’s fairly irrelevant. You’re not paying anything until you earn a reasonable salary and are only a small percentage of the salary over the threshold. It’s written off after a period of time or if you become permanently unfit for work.
The introduction of fees (Labour) have allowed more people than ever to go to University, more people from disadvantaged backgrounds go in England with fees than Scotland where there aren’t.
What's the point of getting an education then, if you don't aim for jobs that will pay you commensurate with what you're trained to do?
Why do a degree to become a teacher, when you can just sit in an office as an overqualified receptionist?
 

433N

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This may be true but it’s still a cancer not to implement the vote. It’s eating away at us and creating yet more democratic deficit. It’s got to happen.
Almost every post you make, you cite 'democratic' or 'democracy'.

Could you tell me what you mean by this exactly. What is democracy and what is the point of it ? What do you think of Aristotle's (who had alot to do with democracy) view that you cannot have democracy without equality ? Why do you think that a 'democratic' decision of a referendum is such a sacred cow ? If people vote to re-institute the death penalty, do you think we should do it ? If people voted to bring back slavery ? In fact, why have we not had referenda on these ? Bit undemocratic these referenda, aren't they ?

You see, you think you can win an argument (or that it adds some weight to it) by using the word democracy ... you can't.
 

edwin_m

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This may be true but it’s still a cancer not to implement the vote. It’s eating away at us and creating yet more democratic deficit. It’s got to happen.
The vote itself was the cancer. A significant fraction of the population won't accept it because of the underhand way it was won. And as far as I'm concerned that probably extends to a Johnson government. There are no good ways out of this but another referendum, on a specific version of a deal, is the least bad one.
 

JamesT

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How is it a good idea?
Why should somebody, however disabled, who is able to do a job the same way as a fully able bodied individual or anybody who is more intellectually challenged than a 'normal' person but is able to do the job in the same way and to the same standard as that 'normal' person, be paid less than that 'normal' person?

Are you really suggesting that it's actually OK to create an actual underclass?

If somebody can do a job, pay them the bloody going rate, there's simply no debate about it.
In an environment where there's competition for jobs, if you're presented with two candidates who both are capable of doing the job but one is disabled, which do you choose? Most of the time you'll choose the able-bodied person so you don't incur the additional costs a disabled employee might have. This results in a world with a higher than average unemployment rate amongst the disabled.
The argument for allowing a lower rate for the disabled is much like the one we have for younger workers. It provides a competitive advantage for those who are otherwise disadvantaged to get them a foot in the door. https://www.ilo.org/global/topics/wages/minimum-wages/rates/WCMS_451252/lang--en/index.htm provides a few examples from around the world of how other countries deal with this.
Although equal pay for equal work is a good principle, defining equal gets a little trickier in the real world.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Blair is rightly maligned for his awful record in Iraq, but until September 2001 he was a very good prime minister and his government did far more good than bad.
I agree - but 2001 was Afghanistan and was invoked under NATO - an attack on one is an attack on all. March 2003 was the Iraq war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War
 
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furnessvale

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Yours and every others' GP has a duty to be truthful at all times, if they were to exaggerate or falsely claim a medical condition in one of their patients, they'd be struck off and would never work in medicine again
It's not that many years ago that GPs routinely issued undeserved sick notes rather than face confrontations. Making GPs responsible for assessments would simply be a repeat of that situation.
 
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