The 2019 General Election Result and Aftermath

[Starmill]

No it isn't. Generally it would be a breach of contract and dealt with in the County Court. All that court could do is to order payment of the debt plus any costs.



Then they'd be spectacularly wrong. That's why people can fail to pay debts but not go to prison and ultimately have those debts written off via bankruptcy. Theft is a criminal offence which attracts criminal sanctions but we don't have "debtors' prisons" any longer.

So your argument is that because the breach of the law does not carry criminal sanction, it's not illegitimate? I don't think that your ideas about this are commonly known. Most people probably aren't sure where this line is even crossed. But nearly everyone does agree that it's wrong to break the law.

 

[TrafficEng]

Had remain won the referendum, what compromise would have been offered to leavers, exactly? None! We would have been told to simply shut up and go away.

Furthermore, I think a Remain result would probably have led to the revocation of the referendum requirement in the European Union Act 2011 and been taken as a mandate to accept (possibly even promote) further integration on the grounds the UK had 'embraced EU membership'.

 

[43066]

So your argument is that because the breach of the law does not carry criminal sanction, it's not illegitimate? I don't think that your ideas about this are commonly known. Most people probably aren't sure where this line is even crossed. But nearly everyone does agree that it's wrong to break the law.

With respect, I don’t think you appreciate how most law in this country is made.

 

[ainsworth74]

We have spent the last three years going nowhere, re running the same arguments, because remainers, and especially the remainer stacked parliament, have refused to accept the result of the referendum!

We of course would have been out on March 29th 2019 if the likes of Boris Johnson had agreed to the deal that was on the table or was he a Remainer then?

 

[Starmill]

With respect, I don’t think you appreciate how most law in this country is made.

You're wrong.

 

[43066]

We of course would have been out on March 29th 2019 if the likes of Boris Johnson had agreed to the deal that was on the table or was he a Remainer then?

I’m no great fan of Boris. He is the least bad of a terrible range of options - I fully accept he has cleverly weaponised the Brexit vote in order to win this election (that works for me, so far, as a staunch leaver).

He has been frustrated by the remain stacked parliament - thankfully the parliamentary arithmetic has now been changed.

I don’t trust him one iota. My fear is that he will now pivot away from a true Brexit - and frankly I’m not impressed with the deal as it stands!

 

[TrafficEng]

Mr Corbyn has scribed an article for The Guardian. I think he’s been stuffed by the headline writer (which will not have been JC). “We won the argument”, reads the first part of the headline. Oh dear.

Reads a bit like a pitch for the job of Leader.

I wonder. Could he be trying to do a Farage? Resign, and then wait for the adoring fans to demand he stays on as Leader because nobody can do the job better than him.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Thursday’s GE result won’t make you finally do that, I’m not sure what else to suggest!

A lot of Remainers I've spoken to (and me) certainly consider this GE result to be "putting it to bed" to a fairly significant extent. With the Tories having run as effectively a single-issue party and having won a landslide (I expected them to win, but by maybe only 10 seats or so) it seems quite clear that everyone is just sick of it all, and as Bozza puts it, want to just get Brexit done (assuming we're doing it) and move forward.

Whether we leave or don't, the 3 years of political paralysis have not benefitted anyone and they need to end one way or another.

 

[yorksrob]

Reads a bit like a pitch for the job of Leader.

I wonder. Could he be trying to do a Farage? Resign, and then wait for the adoring fans to demand he stays on as Leader because nobody can do the job better than him.

I think he knows that its time to pass on the baton.

 

[EM2]

So, looks like the Leavers have work to do. You see, us ’Remoaners’ have spent three and a half years now telling you Brexit was wrong but we’ve finally lost. There’s pretty much nothing we can do now to stop it.

It’s over to you. You need to get yourselves into gear to make it work. We need to see some of these benefits you’ve been able to see yet unable to properly articulate since 2016.

I hope you don’t mind but I’ve taken the liberty of writing a to do list for you.

1. Get Brexit done, please. When we say ‘done’, we mean as promised so we’ll be looking for trade deals with the EU, Japan, Australia and Canada etc. In fact there’s about 40 deals covering 70 countries that need to be done, please. Also with the US that doesn’t involve the NHS or chlorine. We want what you promised us. That was that we’d be no worse off than when we were an EU member. You need to crack on as this was promised by the end of January. You have seven weeks.

2. The NHS. Obviously, we want the cash that was promised. £350 million per week I seem to remember it was? That is about 72000 nurses so please get recruiting. This is important.

3. Scotland. Ok so these guys were promised they would remain in the EU if they remained in the UK. They’re pretty annoyed. In fact they’ve voted almost exclusively for the SNP so they might want to leave. Equally you said the UK wouldn’t split so you’ll need to both grant Scotland its independence and keep it as part of the United Kingdom. Good luck squaring this circle. NB this is urgent.

4. Northern Ireland. Oooookay then. You’ve really mucked this one up. There’s a chance they could look to reunify with the Republic now because they didn’t want to brexit. Regardless you’ve caused instability there where we and they can least afford it. NB this is also urgent.

5. The economy. Johnson keeps talking about unleashing the potential of the country. We need to see this soon if possible. We don’t want to see the downturn that “Project Fear” predicted. We don’t want to be poorer. We don’t want to lose out.

6. You’ll also need to “bring the country back together”. This might be tricky as a lot of people seem to be really really angry with each other.

That’s as far as I’ve got. Should keep you busy. So go and get all British about things. Roll up your sleeves, pull your socks up, dig deep and deliver what you promised.

And remember if you fail to deliver any if this it’s on you, Brexit and Tory voters. You wanted this so badly and now you have it. We honestly hope we’re wrong and that you can make a success of this but if you can’t then we will forever tell you that we told you so.

 

[ainsworth74]

He has been frustrated by the remain stacked parliament - thankfully the parliamentary arithmetic has now been changed.

Again if he and his fellows had voted for the deal that was on the table we would have left the EU on the 29th of March 2019. It has very little to do with the "stacked Parliament".

 

[Ferret]

Again if he and his fellows had voted for the deal that was on the table we would have left the EU on the 29th of March 2019. It has very little to do with the "stacked Parliament".

He has played a game........

 

[ainsworth74]

He has played a game........

Quite so and very well to you certainly have to give him that. It just grates when people go on about the "Remainer Parliament" blocking Brexit when a large chunk of the people blocking it were the very same people who are now being cheered on as the saviours of Brexit!

 

[43066]

A lot of Remainers I've spoken to (and me) certainly consider this GE result to be "putting it to bed" to a fairly significant extent. With the Tories having run as effectively a single-issue party and having won a landslide (I expected them to win, but by maybe only 10 seats or so) it seems quite clear that everyone is just sick of it all, and as Bozza puts it, want to just get Brexit done (assuming we're doing it) and move forward.

Whether we leave or don't, the 3 years of political paralysis have not benefitted anyone and they need to end one way or another.

Quite! Im also utterly exhausted by the subject - it has divided my family and friends like nothing I’ve ever known - we all just want to put it to bed and move on. But that does mean honouring the 2016 result and leaving the EU.

It amazes me that we are still here arguing about the same things as we were in 2016. The result of the referendum went the way it did, for better or worse. For all the intellectual somersaults and tortured attempts to discredit the leave victory, sometimes it feels like Remain won in 2016 and leave are engineering a dastardly plot to leave the EU anyway!

And we have, quite emphatically, seen how well simply saying “bollox to Brexit” plays with the British public.

I do think there has been an abject failure of many remainers to accept a democratic result they found politically unpalatable. The way leavers have been treated since has been utterly diabolical and, as this election result proves, we aren’t going away!

 

[AlterEgo]

Mr Corbyn has scribed an article for The Guardian. I think he’s been stuffed by the headline writer (which will not have been JC). “We won the argument”, reads the first part of the headline. Oh dear.

Self awareness and humility aren’t his thing. His “resignation” speech in Islington was bitter.

 

[43066]

Again if he and his fellows had voted for the deal that was on the table we would have left the EU on the 29th of March 2019. It has very little to do with the "stacked Parliament".

But it wasn’t a good deal (and neither is the current one - although it’s more of an agreement to agree so we will have to see what we end up with once the terms have been thrashed out).

Parliament has been in a state of utter paralysis since TM’s disastrous election result in 2017. Unable to agree a Brexit, unable to agree a second referendum, unable even to grant an election until recently.

 

[Esker-pades]

Quite right. It would be highly undemocratic to have another referendum before the result of the first has been implemented.

We have tried for 3.5 to do that. More on why it isn't 'remainer MPs'' fault later.

Would that be the same proportion of votes that has led to a crushing Tory victory, on a firmly leave ticket?

This fails to understand how first past the post works.

It strikes me that certain posters on this thread are only in favour of democracy when it delivers the results they want.

I've literally been arguing in favour of more democracy (another referendum).
Also, just because one side wins in a democracy doesn't mean that the other side have to shut up.

Democracy only functions with the losing side’s consent, as Mr. Farage has reminded us many times.

I refer you to my comments above.

Corbyn has written an article for the observer stating he thinks he won the argument in the election. Ffs. Clueless.

Just get to chuff you silly old fool!

Oh good grief. If this is his 'reflection', we're in for a long slog back to an electable Labour party.

I’m no great fan of Boris. He is the least bad of a terrible range of options - I fully accept he has cleverly weaponised the Brexit vote in order to win this election (that works for me, so far, as a staunch leaver).

He has been frustrated by the remain stacked parliament - thankfully the parliamentary arithmetic has now been changed.

Is this the same Johnson who voted against 'getting Brexit done' twice? How about all the other leave MPs (Rees-Mogg, Francois, etc., etc.) who also voted against the deal. To simply blame remainer MPs is a gross misrepresentation of what happened. His deal was voted through parliament for a second reading. It was the accelerated timetable that gave virtually no time to scrutinise it that was the problem.

I don't trust him one iota. My fear is that he will now pivot away from a true Brexit - and frankly I’m not impressed with the deal as it stands!

And this is the whole problem with the referendum. Your version of Brexit is different to what Johnson (leave voter & campaigner) thinks it is, which is in turn different to what Michael Gove thinks it is (who voted in favour of May's deal). That's before we consider the voting record of Johnson as an individual (both for and against the deal).

Again, to blame 'remainers' does not deal with the full picture.



Yes. I know this is probably pointless. The UK will leave the EU. It still doesn't mean I'm just going to shut up.

 

[TrafficEng]

Enough to make a good compromise between the rights of the UK and the rights of the rest of the member states, for a certainty. The whole point of compromise was that he would never get everything he wanted.

Interesting. On another forum I visit I pointed out that Cameron promised a lot but came back from Europe with nothing of significance. Another member of that forum (I suspect they live and work in Brussels) responded that was correct. Apparently it was only the arrogance and hubris of the British that made us think that we deserved anything. Anything significant required the amendment of TFEU, and the rest of Europe was far too busy doing other things to waste time on such an amendment simply to keep us happy.

TL;DR If you don't like the way the EU does things, sod off.

 

[43066]

This fails to understand how first past the post works.

I understand exactly how it works (and it’s open to legitimate criticism as a system - although I seem to recall we had a referendum on whether to replace it with a different system a few years back, and voted to retain it).

Yet, you also reject the result of the 2016 referendum - surely that’s the clearest possible insight into the will of the people of this country?

Sorry the result was not to your liking, but that’s just the way it goes.

I've literally been arguing in favour of more democracy (another referendum).
Also, just because one side wins in a democracy doesn't mean that the other side have to shut up.

Shall we immediately have another general election, then, because you don’t like the Tory majority that has been returned by the last one?

Where does it end?

You either want to live in a democracy or you don’t. Part and parcel of living in a democracy, I’m afraid, is accepting that it won’t always go your way and that, when it doesn’t, you have to just lump it.

 

[ainsworth74]

Shall we have another general election, then, because you don’t like the Tory majority that has been returned by the last one?

Yes actually we will! Currently scheduled for Thursday 2 May 2024. Well. Unless things go very very sideways and it either happens a lot sooner than currently planned or the law gets changed so we never need to have them again!

 

[Esker-pades]

I understand exactly how it works.

You also reject the result of the 2016 referendum - surely that’s the clearest possible insight into the will of the people of this country?

Not originally. I started to after the major points I outlined in a previous posts became apparent.

Shall we have another general election, then, because you don’t like the Tory majority that has been returned by the last one?

That is literally what will happen in 5 years' time....

Where does it end?

You either want to live in a democracy or you don’t. Part and parcel of living in a democracy, I’m afraid, is accepting that it won’t always go your way, and you have to just lump it.

Democracy is more than just voting. There are other actions (informal) that play a key role in the democratic system.
A constant feedback loop between the public and the elected representatives is required.
A general election is not just a blank cheque for the party in power to do whatever they want. Especially when said party got less than 50% of the vote.
Democracy includes freedom of speech which allows people to continue to say things (short of being damaging to others).
There's also a faint irony in that your version of democracy is essentially "vote once then shut up for 5 years". That's really not democracy.

 

[TrafficEng]

It's interesting. Looking back to the referendum, the Cameron renegotiation wasn't high in my consciousness at the time (and I was generally quite switched onto politics at the time). Perhaps more could have been made of it.

The original offering was Cameron would do a great renegotiation and then we would have a referendum whether to accept the 'new deal for Britain'. Those with memories that go back to 1973/4/5 will find that vaguely familiar.

In reality he came back with next to nothing, but he couldn't drop the referendum promise. So the referendum went ahead with the renegotiation quietly forgotten about. The Remain side certainly didn't trumpet Cameron's 'successful' renegotiation then because anyone could see it was worth diddly squat.

The official Government booklet sent to all households does mention "The UK has secured a special status in a reformed EU", but the bullet points following are all things that we already had (such as not needing to join the Euro). If anyone knows what this "reformed EU" was I would be grateful for further details, since anything substantive would require TFEU amendment (or so I am told).

 

[43066]

Yes actually we will! Currently scheduled for Thursday 2 May 2024. Well. Unless things go very very sideways and it either happens a lot sooner than currently planned or the law gets changed so we never need to have them again!

Edited my previous post to add “immediately”, which was what I meant to say, as I’m sure you appreciate .

The remain image of democracy is certainly a strange one. It seems we need to keep voting again and again until we deliver the “correct” result!

 

[AlterEgo]

You either want to live in a democracy or you don’t. Part and parcel of living in a democracy, I’m afraid, is accepting that it won’t always go your way, and you have to just lump it.

Remainers tend to believe in the strength of large societies, cooperation, and love to bang on about democracy. Healthy democracies require losers’ consent to function, something we aren’t seeing with Remainers telling Leavers they now “own” whatever happens.

The predictability of Remainers banging on about the “popular vote” following the General Election is depressing. It’s also a fallacy for two reasons:

The assumption that if one voted Tory that this was also, definitely, a vote to leave the EU in the same way a second referendum works is naive at best. There would be people who voted Labour purely because they’ve always done and because they’re vehement anti-Tories, and people who simply didn’t vote for Labour at all because they felt the election was a referendum on Corbyn and his ideas.

The other reason is simply that there already was a popular vote, in 2016, and Remainers lost that one. They still haven’t processed why they lost and are still, for the love of God, banging on about money and the economy.

 

[AlterEgo]

Democracy is more than just voting. There are other actions (informal) that play a key role in the democratic system.
A constant feedback loop between the public and the elected representatives is required.

Yes, precisely, and because this didn’t happen for a very, very long time, political pressure built up and the boil was lanced through a referendum. Even after the referendum, the bulwark of the political class didn’t support the people’s choice, which was directly expressed to them.

By further extension, the link between MEPs are their constituents is so incredibly weak it would be laughable to call it proper democracy.

A general election is not just a blank cheque for the party in power to do whatever they want. Especially when said party got less than 50% of the vote

But we had a referendum on that too and AV lost convincingly. A lot of Labour supporters said no to AV; no sympathy here.

 

[TrafficEng]

Is this the same Johnson who voted against 'getting Brexit done' twice? How about all the other leave MPs (Rees-Mogg, Francois, etc., etc.) who also voted against the deal. To simply blame remainer MPs is a gross misrepresentation of what happened. His deal was voted through parliament for a second reading. It was the accelerated timetable that gave virtually no time to scrutinise it that was the problem.

But nobody seriously expected the Bill to progress through the Committee stage without being amended (by the opposition collective) to include adding ongoing membership of the CU and SM.

The agreement was what Labour were calling (until Thursday) the "bad Tory deal". The LibDems and SNP still wanted to "Stop Brexit".

The Second Reading was given because the Remainers knew the programme motion would stop any further progression, and a protracted debate on the agreement and bill would give them ample opportunities to embarrass and humiliate the Government through defeat after defeat.

It would be disingenuous to suggest the Remainers (as a group) supported the agreement.

 

[Esker-pades]

Yes, precisely, and because this didn’t happen for a very, very long time, political pressure built up and the boil was lanced through a referendum. Even after the referendum, the bulwark of the political class didn’t support the people’s choice, which was directly expressed to them.

I agree with the first statement.
I disagree with the second. I interpreted the response to be 'oh well, let's try this'. This was still the time when I was a leave supporter. Several now fairly infamous remain MPs voted to trigger article 50, which I think demonstrates that my interpretation of the immediate post referendum period holds some water.

By further extension, the link between MEPs are their constituents is so incredibly weak it would be laughable to call it proper democracy.

I don't know what evidence you're using to assert this, so I'm not going to be able to come up with a reasonable response.

But we had a referendum on that too and AV lost convincingly. A lot of Labour supporters said no to AV; no sympathy here.

I'm not quite sure how that's supposed to convince me that the current system is flawed. Just because Labour were against a thing doesn't mean I'm against it.

 

[Dave1987]

Blimey some British people are a bit delusional. Johnson has won a thumping great majority, fair play. He has made some pretty outlandish promises which he will now be judged against which is only fair but I’ve heard some very hysterical claims by Brexiteers over the last 24hrs or so. Apparently the EU is “running scared now” and Germany is “desperate to do a trade deal with us to save their economy” and we should play hardball with them blah blah blah. Recently I have read that the UK is addicted to cheap credit and the average household debt has reached a new high. Germany on the other hand run a budget surplus and could very very easily start spending on infrastructure without causing a massive deficit. The UK on the other hand has actually not stopped piling on the debt and continues to spend more than it gets in in taxes. The Germans may well start spending soon as China’s slowdown has hit them a lot but they can very easily loosen the purse strings. Hmmm I wonder which one needs a trade deal more? The EU have just secured a massive trade deal with South America. Brexiteers seem to think these trade deals can be done in a few weeks, they will soon find out the hard way that isn’t the case.

 

[Esker-pades]

But nobody seriously expected the Bill to progress through the Committee stage without being amended (by the opposition collective) to include adding ongoing membership of the CU and SM.

Simply, I don't know. I'm not currently in a position to make predictions about things that haven't and now will not happen. Sorry.

The agreement was what Labour were calling (until Thursday) the "bad Tory deal". The LibDems and SNP still wanted to "Stop Brexit".

But, at that point, all were supporting a second referendum. People could still have voted leave in such a referendum had it happened.

The Second Reading was given because the Remainers knew the programme motion would stop any further progression, and a protracted debate on the agreement and bill would give them ample opportunities to embarrass and humiliate the Government through defeat after defeat.

Again, I'm not currently in a position to make predictions about things that haven't and now will not happen.

It would be disingenuous to suggest the Remainers (as a group) supported the agreement.

I did not say that. I said that placing all the blame on remainer MPs for preventing Brexit from getting done was wrong.

 

[43066]

Remainers tend to believe in the strength of large societies, cooperation, and love to bang on about democracy. Healthy democracies require losers’ consent to function, something we aren’t seeing with Remainers telling Leavers they now “own” whatever happens.

Yup.

As you say losers’ consent is fundamental to the democratic process! I’m disappointed with the lack thereof we have seen.

Most sensible, pragmatic remainers accept the 2016 result - there’s vociferous rump who don’t. Their voices are utterly, utterly irrelevant since the election result.

The assumption that if one voted Tory that this was also, definitely, a vote to leave the EU in the same way a second referendum works is naive at best. There would be people who voted Labour purely because they’ve always done and because they’re vehement anti-Tories, and people who simply didn’t vote for Labour at all because they felt the election was a referendum on Corbyn and his ideas.

I think the last election was undeniably about Brexit - Corbyn was utterly appalling - but we now have Northern mining constituencies voting Tory. That’s truly seismic. It goes against deeply ingrained party loyalties and is something I never thought I’d see in my lifetime.

The other reason is simply that there already was a popular vote, in 2016, and Remainers lost that one. They still haven’t processed why they lost and are still, for the love of God, banging on about money and the economy.

As you have alighted upon, it comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding about why people voted to leave. That exact same misunderstanding permeated the 2016 remain campaign, and ultimately fomented its failure.

I was asked earlier in the thread how much of someone else’s money I wanted to preserve my own sense of national identity.

Ha! That line of argument completely misses the point that my leave vote went against my own economic self interest, let alone anyone else’s!

I didn’t vote leave because I thought it would make the country richer. If leaving the EU makes us all poorer, that’s fine by me. It’s a question of democracy and self determination - a deeply emotional and visceral matter for me.