The 87/2: A New Loco Given Same Class Number

[hexagon789]

It definitely was intentional - the whole branding package was designed to hark back to the past - company name, crests, livery, interior design, etc. Later on they moved away from it a bit with the 'Mallard' refurbishment of the Mk4s and later the HSTs, and fitted a much more 'modern' looking interior.

Well I suppose they did try and convey historic connections quite a bit - emblazoning "ROUTE OF THE FLYING SCOTSMAN" on every carriage definitely suggests they were trying to make that clear.

 

[Aictos]

Well I suppose they did try and convey historic connections quite a bit - emblazoning "ROUTE OF THE FLYING SCOTSMAN" on every carriage definitely suggests they were trying to make that clear.

Don't forget that the HSTs I believe had brass GNER shields on the carriages while the MK4s I believe were vinyl.

 

[hexagon789]

Don't forget that the HSTs I believe had brass GNER shields on the carriages while the MK4s I believe were vinyl.

I know the whole fleet didn't receive the same treatment but I can't recall whether any Mk4s at all had them or not.

 

[43096]

I know the whole fleet didn't receive the same treatment but I can't recall whether any Mk4s at all had them or not.

The first few Mark 4s to get them did get the cast version, but it was abandoned for vinyls because the interior had to be removed to add strengthening inside the bodyshell for the weight. The first nine HSTs (EC51-59) were much easier to do the strengthening as they were stripped down for C3X overhaul/refurbishment at Wolverton.

 

[hexagon789]

The first few Mark 4s to get them did get the cast version, but it was abandoned for vinyls because the interior had to be removed to add strengthening inside the bodyshell for the weight. The first nine HSTs (EC51-59) were much easier to do the strengthening as they were stripped down for C3X overhaul/refurbishment at Wolverton.

Thanks, I was reasonably sure some of the Mk4s did get the casts but it was discontinued - I thought it was first cost rather than structural reasons though but that would make sense.

Did they remove them from the Mk4s so-fitted or did those vehicles retain them throughout the GNER period?

 

[DB]

The first few Mark 4s to get them did get the cast version, but it was abandoned for vinyls because the interior had to be removed to add strengthening inside the bodyshell for the weight. The first nine HSTs (EC51-59) were much easier to do the strengthening as they were stripped down for C3X overhaul/refurbishment at Wolverton.

Did sets EC60-63 get the cast plates or vinyls?

 

[pdeaves]

Thanks, I was reasonably sure some of the Mk4s did get the casts but it was discontinued - I thought it was first cost rather than structural reasons though but that would make sense.

At least part of the decision was to do with it being difficult to make a curved casting (to match the lower bodyside).

Anyway, this has got a long way from 87/2s!

 

[hexagon789]

At least part of the decision was to do with it being difficult to make a curved casting (to match the lower bodyside).

I'd overlooked the different bodyshell profile.

Anyway, this has got a long way from 87/2s!

Indeed, so steering back to topic - something I've thought about was the redeployment and withdrawal of 87101.

It was redeployed to the Railfreight Sector and of course withdrawn arguably prematurely due to its unique nature, however given its control systems were like the Class 90 AND it could be driven (and usually was) in the same manner as a standard 87 was it really all that non-standard or was it more of an excuse to withdraw it?

If it had remained in the passenger sector would it have survived at least longer if not to this day?

 

[43096]

Did sets EC60-63 get the cast plates or vinyls?

Not 100% certain on EC60 as it went straight to works for refurb, but think they all got stickers.

 

[Trackman]

Just going OT slightly, I've heard DVT's called class 82s.
I bite my tongue and don't challenge them.
'Dad, it's a class 82 up front!'

 

[43096]

Just going OT slightly, I've heard DVT's called class 82s.
I bite my tongue and don't challenge them.
'Dad, it's a class 82 up front!'

Don’t start me on that one. It’s an NZA!

 

[edwin_m]

I'd overlooked the different bodyshell profile.



Indeed, so steering back to topic - something I've thought about was the redeployment and withdrawal of 87101.

It was redeployed to the Railfreight Sector and of course withdrawn arguably prematurely due to its unique nature, however given its control systems were like the Class 90 AND it could be driven (and usually was) in the same manner as a standard 87 was it really all that non-standard or was it more of an excuse to withdraw it?

If it had remained in the passenger sector would it have survived at least longer if not to this day?

With the speed of development of power electronics, I would guess the devices used on the 90 were very different from those fitted to 87101 well over a decade earlier. This probably also means that 87101 would have suffered from component obsolescence, making it very difficult to obtain spare parts.

 

[pdeaves]

Don’t start me on that one. It’s an NZA!

NZA?

 

[43096]

NZA?

TOPS code for a DVT - the "class" if you like.

 

[hexagon789]

With the speed of development of power electronics, I would guess the devices used on the 90 were very different from those fitted to 87101 well over a decade earlier. This probably also means that 87101 would have suffered from component obsolescence, making it very difficult to obtain spare parts.

So older electronics and part obsolescence; that is what's generally stated but you're never sure exactly how accurate non-specifics like that are when it's just a statement in print in books or on webpages.

Given the motors were essentially the same and in advanced mode it behaved as a 90 would it just sort of suggest it might be more closely related than suggested but not the case then

 

[xotGD]

Just going OT slightly, I've heard DVT's called class 82s.
I bite my tongue and don't challenge them.
'Dad, it's a class 82 up front!'

Worse than that - some people round here count them for 'haulage'!

 

[hexagon789]

Worse than that - some people round here count them for 'haulage'!

Well I mean a Driving Van Trailer does an awful lot of hauling doesn't it?

 

[randyrippley]

Indeed, so steering back to topic - something I've thought about was the redeployment and withdrawal of 87101.

It was redeployed to the Railfreight Sector and of course withdrawn arguably prematurely due to its unique nature, however given its control systems were like the Class 90 AND it could be driven (and usually was) in the same manner as a standard 87 was it really all that non-standard or was it more of an excuse to withdraw it?

If it had remained in the passenger sector would it have survived at least longer if not to this day?

Probably not.......don't forget Virgin handed back the three 86/1 early as "non standard" despite being fitted with class 87 electricals.
If they were unwanted, 87101 had no chance

 

[hexagon789]

Probably not.......don't forget Virgin handed back the three 86/1 early as "non standard" despite being fitted with class 87 electricals.
If they were unwanted, 87101 had no chance

Fair point, odd overlooked the situation with the 86/1s. Taking that into consideration I suppose 87101's chances were pretty slim

 

[Royston Vasey]

I think the black/white cab styling helped a little - the actual InterCity livery started behind the cab. What has always looked really odd to me though is the Mk 4 DVT - it's like someone took the Class 91 nose cone and attached it to a Mark 4 coach because the cab windows are at a different angle to the rest of the nose, so it creates an angle. It just seems to protrude oddly. Add in the horns being below the lights (rather than between them) and the cable covers for the TDM cables that had small recesses. It just looked messy. Whereas whilst a Mk 3B DVT doesn't look like a Class 90 the styling seems much more cohesive. Personal taste I know!

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/24206916726849411/

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/635992778608618753/

https://farm66.static.flickr.com/65535/50711869847_91b7484afb.jpg

The Mk 3B DVT look more like a 91 than the Mk 4 DVT! Especially with Virgin era silver grilles

 

[hexagon789]

The Mk 3B DVT look more like a 91 than the Mk 4 DVT! Especially with Virgin era silver grilles

I don't see it personally, the more raked cab of the Mk4 DVT matches the 91 profile more closely to my eyes

 

[Royston Vasey]

I don't see it personally, the more raked cab of the Mk4 DVT matches the 91 profile more closely to my eyes

To me, I think it's the headlight clusters and the dimensions and "straightness" of the front end looks like the 91 whereas, as someone mentioned, the Mk 4 DVT has a steeper windscreen than it seems it should!

Certainly the Mk 3 DVT us more like a 91 than the 90s it was designed for use with. With the more raked slope, full width rather than tapered sides to the nose, and silver grilles.

 

[hexagon789]

To me, I think it's the headlight clusters and the dimensions and "straightness" of the front end looks like the 91 whereas, as someone mentioned, the Mk 4 DVT has a steeper windscreen than it seems it should!

Certainly the Mk 3 DVT us more like a 91 than the 90s it was designed for use with. With the more raked slope, full width rather than tapered sides to the nose, and silver grilles.

I'm still not seeing it, maybe my brain has been conditioned to subconsciously match the 91 and Mk4 DVT no matter what!

(I suppose we all perceive things slightly differently as well to add into the bargain.)

 

[pdeaves]

TOPS code for a DVT - the "class" if you like.

OK, thanks. I thought it was some sort of TLA (three letter acronym) for a derogatory or endearing term.

 

[Inversnecky]

TOPS code for a DVT - the "class" if you like.

What does NZA stand for? Why can’t they just use DVT?

 

[Gloster]

NZA is a TOPS code, which provides both a standard system for use with the TOPS system and a consistent system for more general use. Using the TOPS code makes things much clearer as to what vehicles are being referred to, rather than a mishmash of varying letter combinations.

N is the letter for all Non-passenger carrying coaching stock (NPCCS), Z indicates the sub-type of NPCCS and A is the brake type, in this case Air only.

 

[hexagon789]

What does NZA stand for? Why can’t they just use DVT?

DVT is more a description, it's based on the old telegraphic code for describing coaching stock; NZA is the code used in computer systems - in this case TOPS.

 

[edwin_m]

DVT is more a description, it's based on the old telegraphic code for describing coaching stock; NZA is the code used in computer systems - in this case TOPS.

DVT is just an abbreviation for Driving Van Trailer.

 

[hexagon789]

DVT is just an abbreviation for Driving Van Trailer.

Just as BG is for Brake Gangwayed and RMB for Restaurant Miniature Buffet but they are still codes which were applied to carriage data panels and were used in carriage working books before TOPS codes

 

[edwin_m]

Just as BG is for Brake Gangwayed and RMB for Restaurant Miniature Buffet but they are still codes which were applied to carriage data panels and were used in carriage working books before TOPS codes

But DVT wasn't a telegraphic code or a pre-TOPS code. DVTs post-dated both the demise of the telegraph and the introduction of TOPS.