The Batley & Spen by-election

[quantinghome]

OK fair enough. I agree the far-right candidates were pretty unpleasant. I think possibly you're over-egging your case a bit though when you tried to justify Keir Starmer's comments by saying, "Sorry, but for the hundreds of Labour supporters who campaigned hard for weeks against some really vile opponents": Given that, other than George Galloway, the 'vile' candidates were all fringe candidates who clearly (and, as you say, thankfully) made virtually no impression on the campaign, it seems to be stretching things a bit to be making out that Labour supporters were campaigning hard against them, in a way that would justify Starmer claiming Labour's lowest share of the vote ever in that constituency as some kind of stunning victory. But perhaps I'm being a bit too pedantic

By opponents I don't just mean the candidates but also their supporters, both for George Galloway and the far right. The latter made no electoral impact but did generated a toxic atmosphere in which to campaign, which is more what I meant by 'campaigning hard'.

 

[Purple Orange]

It’s funny reading some of the mental gymnastics that rightvwing forumers are going through to try and explain away the Tory result. The Tories thought they had this seat and it was theirs to win. They failed.

 

[Bantamzen]

No problem. I will just assume you cant rebut any of the points made.

No I won't be rebutting any of your points because your silly "covid denial" comment demonstrated that you are simply to willing to listen. I've found over the last year and a half that people who use such phrases without thought will not take onboard anything you say, as they have already made their minds up. Its like arguing with the next door's neighbour's cat.

Sorry, but for the hundreds of Labour supporters who campaigned hard for weeks against some really vile opponents, and against all predictions, there is everything to celebrate. This isn't delusional back-slapping, it's celebration and relief at a narrow, hard fought victory. Keir Starmer is the leader of the party; of course he's going to talk the party up, it's literally his job to do so. Why on earth would you expect a dispassionate commentary from him to be given in public. A soundbite for the media is hardly evidence of his take on the overall situation.

Churchill's 'finest hour' speech was made on 18 June 1940 at the nadir of our fortunes in WW2. Imagine someone saying "pfff, he's delusional, acting like we've won the war or something, France has just surrendered and we've got no allies left and we've only narrowly escaped our entire army being captured at Calais. Churchill should show some humility and honesty rather than this ridiculous talk of victory".

I'm going to be honest and say that I am really struggling to understand the comparison between 18/06/1940 and the election result of Batley & Spen in 2021.

If Southgate were to say that I imagine the players would start looking for another manager.

Erm, that's my point all along. Starmer is acting as if he's won the Euros when actually his party has just scraped through a qualifier, and one his party should have won far more comprehensively. This is the problem with Labour right now, they are so impressed with themselves that they & their supporters can't see anything wrong with what they do. Labour is in a spiral of self-denial & self destruction.

As a lifelong Labour voter and a union rep for many years (please take note @DarloRich), I literally despair at the direction Labour is going. Not only are they managing to throw away their supporter base, but they seem incapable of listening to criticism. And judging by some of the responses here, I can see why. They must really feel the sun shines out of their arses, even though they must be one of the worst parties in opposition in the history of Parliament. The Tories must be loving this, because they are one of the worst governments in the history of Parliament yet they are probably very safe.

What a time to be alive.....

 

[PR1Berske]

George Galloway requires another byelection, and soon, to carry on whatever momentum is behind him. There are none scheduled, and I don't wish any MPs ill health to facilitate one. He may soon retreat into his TV studio with this latest result fading into just another footnote.

 

[JamesT]

George Galloway requires another byelection, and soon, to carry on whatever momentum is behind him. There are none scheduled, and I don't wish any MPs ill health to facilitate one. He may soon retreat into his TV studio with this latest result fading into just another footnote.

Depending on the result of https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/mp-apsana-begum-housing-fraud-trial-snaresbrook-b900132.html there could be another one in the not too distant future.

 

[37424]

No I won't be rebutting any of your points because your silly "covid denial" comment demonstrated that you are simply to willing to listen. I've found over the last year and a half that people who use such phrases without thought will not take onboard anything you say, as they have already made their minds up. Its like arguing with the next door's neighbour's cat.



I'm going to be honest and say that I am really struggling to understand the comparison between 18/06/1940 and the election result of Batley & Spen in 2021.



Erm, that's my point all along. Starmer is acting as if he's won the Euros when actually his party has just scraped through a qualifier, and one his party should have won far more comprehensively. This is the problem with Labour right now, they are so impressed with themselves that they & their supporters can't see anything wrong with what they do. Labour is in a spiral of self-denial & self destruction.

As a lifelong Labour voter and a union rep for many years (please take note @DarloRich), I literally despair at the direction Labour is going. Not only are they managing to throw away their supporter base, but they seem incapable of listening to criticism. And judging by some of the responses here, I can see why. They must really feel the sun shines out of their arses, even though they must be one of the worst parties in opposition in the history of Parliament. The Tories must be loving this, because they are one of the worst governments in the history of Parliament yet they are probably very safe.

What a time to be alive.....

I am sure Labour are relieved to win but yes it wasn't a particularly good result for Labour, but then this was a By-election and they are not like normal elections and particularly for Labour with the scud missile of Galloway.

What direction do want Labour to go in? do you want Corbyn MK2?, history shows that when Labour goes left they don't win an election because they loose the centre ground, I am in the centre ground I didn't vote for Corbyn but I did vote Labour on Thursday, but I wouldn't vote for Corbyn Mk2 if Starmer is replaced or such as Angela Raynor who I don't regard as Prime Minister material before we even get to her policies.

 

[Typhoon]

Depending on the result of https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/mp-apsana-begum-housing-fraud-trial-snaresbrook-b900132.html there could be another one in the not too distant future.

He's contested the constituency before, in 2010 when he came third with just over 8000 votes having moved across from Bethnal Green & Bow so he may well be watching developments.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s funny reading some of the mental gymnastics that rightvwing forumers are going through to try and explain away the Tory result. The Tories thought they had this seat and it was theirs to win. They failed.

Hancock is probably the key to this. I’m sure a few hundred Tory voters didn’t turn up because of the delay in sacking him.

Leadbeater, meanwhile, was disappointingly equivocal about the teacher who was hounded out of his job by Islamists, saying “that’s a decision for the teacher”.

It would be nice if a parliamentary candidate felt able to, you know, absolutely condemn in the strongest terms a teacher being in fear for his life and unable to work (PS where is his Union??), but that’s where we are.

 

[Bantamzen]

I am sure Labour are relieved to win but yes it wasn't a particularly good result for Labour, but then this was a By-election and they are not like normal elections and particularly for Labour with the scud missile of Galloway.

It was a poor result, they lost a significant amount of their support yet seem to think this means they are winning.

What direction do want Labour to go in? do you want Corbyn MK2?, history shows that when Labour goes left they don't win an election because they loose the centre ground, I am in the centre ground I didn't vote for Corbyn but I did vote Labour on Thursday, but I wouldn't vote for Corbyn Mk2 if Starmer is replaced or such as Angela Raynor who I don't regard as Prime Minister material before we even get to her policies.

I would like Labour to be a viable opposition. They haven't done that under Starmer, when the government was flip-flopping between covid restrictions all they could do was demand more, harder, longer restrictions. What they should have been doing was questioning every decision, asking how people were supposed to get by on 20% or worse pay cuts, how all this was going to be paid for & why they are spending hundreds of billions on them whilst completely failing to invest in the essential services like the NHS. Even if the leadership were in support of the restrictions, the job of the opposition is to keep the government accountable. In my opinion Labour have failed massively in this. In years to come when the financial impact of the last 18 months comes into sharp focus, I hope all the hardcore Labour supporters will remember that they shouted for more.

 

[DarloRich]

As a lifelong Labour voter and a union rep for many years (please take note @DarloRich), I literally despair at the direction Labour is going. Not only are they managing to throw away their supporter base, but they seem incapable of listening to criticism. And judging by some of the responses here, I can see why. They must really feel the sun shines out of their arses, even though they must be one of the worst parties in opposition in the history of Parliament. The Tories must be loving this, because they are one of the worst governments in the history of Parliament yet they are probably very safe.

Sorry to upset you further but I to have been a union rep for many years and a Labour member for far too long. Perhaps living a a "lovely house" in the problem though.

I literally despair at the result of the Corbyn experiment, the damage it has caused and the direction his fan boys still want to take Labour. Not only did they manage to throw away thousands of supporters losing solid Labour seats like Bishop Auckland and Blyth and NW Durham but they seem incapable of listening to any criticism and judging by some of your responses I can see why it ended so badly. They really thought that the sun shined out of the backside of Corbyn even though his labour party was one of the worst parties in opposition in the history of Parliament. The Tories loved it, because although they are one of the worst governments in the history of Parliament they are very safe thanks to the 80 seat majority Corbyn and his SWP clown army delivered them.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Incidentally I had an email from Momentum this morning. They do at least acknowledge it was a poor performance by Labour.

In 2019, Corbyn’s Labour won the seat with 42.7% of the vote. Today we won with 35%. That is a worrying trend. We can’t pretend that this was a general election winning performance. If our vote share declined by the amount it did last night in a GE we would be reduced to a rump party.

And then they present their solution... which looks remarkably like a return to Corbynism!

A transformative socialist vision can unite a broad working class coalition, from pensioners in small towns to students in big cities, and begin to turn the tables on a Tory government that has made Britain into a cash cow for the mega-rich privatisers.

That should be our goal: a big, bold vision that wins more votes, not a focus-grouped strategy that just about holds onto the votes we already have.

I wonder how much influence they still have?

 

[Bantamzen]

Sorry to upset you further but I to have been a union rep for many years and a Labour member for far too long. Perhaps living a a "lovely house" in the problem though.

I'm not sure why you are taking that comment so personally, it wasn't aimed at you.

I literally despair at the result of the Corbyn experiment, the damage it has caused and the direction his fan boys still want to take Labour. Not only did they manage to throw away thousands of supporters losing solid Labour seats like Bishop Auckland and Blyth and NW Durham but they seem incapable of listening to any criticism and judging by some of your responses I can see why it ended so badly. They really thought that the sun shined out of the backside of Corbyn even though his labour party was the worst parties in opposition in the history of Parliament. The Tories loved it, because although they are one of the worst governments in the history of Parliament they are very safe thanks to the 80 seat majority Corbyn and his SWP clown army delivered them.

And I would agree that Corbyn was a disaster for Labour. But that doesn't mean that Starmer will do better, and from what I am seeing he is continuing Labour's demise. For me he comes across as arrogant.and very detached from many of their core supporters. Quite honestly he would be just at home wearing a blue tie.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm not sure why you are taking that comment so personally, it wasn't aimed at you.


And I would agree that Corbyn was a disaster for Labour. But that doesn't mean that Starmer will do better, and from what I am seeing he is continuing Labour's demise. For me he comes across as arrogant.and very detached from many of their core supporters. Quite honestly he would be just at home wearing a blue tie.

I may shock you here and agree a bit: I don't think Stammer will do a fantastically well but I don't think that is his job. He isn't going to overturn an 80 seat majority in one session. I think he will try to detoxify Labour, deliver a solid, steadying performance before handing over to someone else. Perhaps that someone could be Burnham ( who I voted for years ago!)

I want to see more from Starmer mind. I want a specific policy agenda setting out and more attacks on Johnson and his gang of crooks. I just don't think he had an option but to, broadly, support the government in their covid response. To oppose those actions would make Labour the story not the pandemic, suggest they were still Corbyn influenced and prove to many that Labour still hate Britain. It is no win so they may as well limit the damage and wait for a moment to attack.

I'm not sure why you are taking that comment so personally, it wasn't aimed at you.

No worries - I just get fed up with people thinking that working from home has been a doss. It hasn't. I am lucky and can work from home. It isn't easy and the working hours have gone up and up along with the stress levels.

 

[37424]

It was a poor result, they lost a significant amount of their support yet seem to think this means they are winning.



I would like Labour to be a viable opposition. They haven't done that under Starmer, when the government was flip-flopping between covid restrictions all they could do was demand more, harder, longer restrictions. What they should have been doing was questioning every decision, asking how people were supposed to get by on 20% or worse pay cuts, how all this was going to be paid for & why they are spending hundreds of billions on them whilst completely failing to invest in the essential services like the NHS. Even if the leadership were in support of the restrictions, the job of the opposition is to keep the government accountable. In my opinion Labour have failed massively in this. In years to come when the financial impact of the last 18 months comes into sharp focus, I hope all the hardcore Labour supporters will remember that they shouted for more.

The country has been in a national emergency and as such you shouldn't really be playing politics in such as situation, so in that respect its been difficult for Starmer and all the opposition parties, and they might disagree with some of the details and timing etc Labour has been broadly in agreement with the government approach on lockdown.

 

[Bantamzen]

The country has been in a national emergency and as such you shouldn't really be playing politics in such as situation, so in that respect its been difficult for Starmer and all the opposition parties, and they might disagree with some of the details and timing etc Labour has been broadly in agreement with the government approach on lockdown.

I disagree. Yes there has been a pandemic (I'm really not sure it can be called a national emergency), but that doesn't mean that the opposition shouldn't ask questions of government decisions. Especially when there are more than one set of views in the scientific community about the best way to deal with s pandemic. Whilst some advocate lockdowns and restrictions, others say that these simply delay what is inevitable. And because there are differing views there, so opposition parties should at least challenge decisions. Particularly when those restrictions are going to cost hundreds of billions.

 

[edwin_m]

I disagree. Yes there has been a pandemic (I'm really not sure it can be called a national emergency), but that doesn't mean that the opposition shouldn't ask questions of government decisions. Especially when there are more than one set of views in the scientific community about the best way to deal with s pandemic. Whilst some advocate lockdowns and restrictions, others say that these simply delay what is inevitable. And because there are differing views there, so opposition parties should at least challenge decisions. Particularly when those restrictions are going to cost hundreds of billions.

Opposition shouldn't oppose for opposition's sake. Most scientific and public opinion broadly supports the type of restrictions we have had to control Covid, with the main criticism of the government being that they imposed things too late and relaxed them too soon. This has worsened both the health and the economic consequences.

There are some fringe groups and an echo chamber on this forum that disagree, but it's unlikely any major political party will take this view, and if they did it's unlikely it would help their popularity.

 

[swt_passenger]

Incidentally I had an email from Momentum this morning. They do at least acknowledge it was a poor performance by Labour.



And then they present their solution... which looks remarkably like a return to Corbynism!



I wonder how much influence they still have?

If they have all the answers, why don’t they form a new party and put up their own candidates?

 

[brad465]

If they have all the answers, why don’t they form a new party and put up their own candidates?

First past the post (I'm guessing). If they formed a new party they'd at best get a UKIP like result in 2015 of 1 seat to nearly 4m votes. Therefore hijacking another party seemed to be their best option. They don't seem to be very influential right now though, so at the very least Starmer and his team have them under control.

 

[DarloRich]

Opposition shouldn't oppose for opposition's sake. Most scientific and public opinion broadly supports the type of restrictions we have had to control Covid, with the main criticism of the government being that they imposed things too late and relaxed them too soon. This has worsened both the health and the economic consequences.

There are some fringe groups and an echo chamber on this forum that disagree, but it's unlikely any major political party will take this view, and if they did it's unlikely it would help their popularity.

Spot on.

First past the post (I'm guessing). If they formed a new party they'd at best get a UKIP like result in 2015 of 1 seat to nearly 4m votes. Therefore hijacking another party seemed to be their best option. They don't seem to be very influential right now though, so at the very least Starmer and his team have them under control.

IMO they are entryists and should be booted out of the Labour party.

 

[brad465]

Depending on the result of https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/mp-apsana-begum-housing-fraud-trial-snaresbrook-b900132.html there could be another one in the not too distant future.

He's contested the constituency before, in 2010 when he came third with just over 8000 votes having moved across from Bethnal Green & Bow so he may well be watching developments.

I would hope by the time that might trigger a by-election, Starmer's summer campaign planned will at least be underway and coming up with policies. The pandemic should also be fading from a political perspective, and if ut hasn't the Government action/belief would come into question, so the rally around the leader effect should wane.

There is also a possible by-election in Wakefield due to the Tory MP facing trial on sexual assault charges IIRC. While Galloway may not contest it, its a potential one for Labour to try and get back were the seat to be contested.

 

[SuperNova]

I disagree. Yes there has been a pandemic (I'm really not sure it can be called a national emergency), but that doesn't mean that the opposition shouldn't ask questions of government decisions. Especially when there are more than one set of views in the scientific community about the best way to deal with s pandemic. Whilst some advocate lockdowns and restrictions, others say that these simply delay what is inevitable. And because there are differing views there, so opposition parties should at least challenge decisions. Particularly when those restrictions are going to cost hundreds of billions.

A pandemic, to which 150k people have died and our lives have been disrupted more than any other point than since the second world war isn't a national emergency? What planet are you on?

 

[Bantamzen]

A pandemic, to which 150k people have died and our lives have been disrupted more than any other point than since the second world war isn't a national emergency? What planet are you on?

What planet? One that saw over 50K people die in the UK of influenza in the winter of 2017-18, without barely a whisper. That planet.

 

[37424]

What planet? One that saw over 50K people die in the UK of influenza in the winter of 2017-18, without barely a whisper. That planet.

Well without turning turning this into another covid debate, I'm 59 years old and was like nothing I had seen before and I would certainly call it a National Emergency you may be have been against the lockdowns but you party was in support, and the past year has made it difficult for any party to be an effective opposition.

 

[Cowley]

I think we’ll probably wrap this thread up now that the results are in and everyone has aired their views.
Anyone that wants to carry on discussing the Labour Party can do so here:

Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

A only slightly tongue in cheek plagiarisation of @Butts thread on the Lib Dems May's elections for various offices in the whole of Great Britain, saw this once great Party standing on the edge of the abyss and becoming if it is not already an irrelevance. Behind SNP and Tories in Scotland...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks everyone.