The benefits of other countries Railways...

[TrainfanBen]

What ideas/strategies/policies could we take from the other railway networks and implement here in the UK?
I was thinking for example, Switzerland.

Secondary question:

Why don't all involved in the UK rail industry "Go compare other railways" in the first place.
What's stopping them, is it red tape or just a lack of money?

 

[Grantham]

In Australia, managements of freight companies do their best to slavishly follow US practices, not all of which are practial for the circumstances at hand. I'm sure it's just a lack of imagination that stops railway managements from comparing our situation with equivalents in Europe and Asia.

M

 

[Schnellzug]

trouble is, those who say "Why don't we learn from other countries' railways" rarely ever look beyond France, where they're seduced by the glamour of the TGV network and never look at the state of SNCF Fret (because it isn't glamorous enough) or the branch lines or long rural routes with two trains a day and timetables that are different every single day. And quite a few other countries, (e.g. Germany, Netherlands, Sweden) are pretty much following the UK principle of putting routes or networks out to tender, the only difference is that the long distance routes are usually left with the national operator. Plus, if we're looking at Electrification, Switzerland (for instance) is able to use hydro-electric for a lot of power generation, with nuclear power making up the remainder, and we're not as well supplied with the natural resources to be able to do that. Plus, of course, Switzerland is the exception since it isn't in the EU, so it doesn't have to worry about EU tendering and separation of infrastructure and so on.

 

[starrymarkb]

SBB dos do the split accounting as it is part of the EEA...

 

[radamfi]

It is common practice for English speaking countries to only look at what happens in other English speaking countries. Not just for transport.

 

[WestCoast]

The privatisation models, if you can call them that, are generally much better in Germany, the Netherlands and Sweden IMO. Much more focused on getting a good deal for the taxpayer and for users.

 

[SwindonPkwy]

In Japan (other than on commuter trains) it would seem that passengers are expected (or expect) always to face forward. At journey's end, the conductor checks each carriage over and with the flick of a switch, all of the seats rotate through 180 degrees.

I have not seen this feature in the UK; is it commonplace in Europe? Obviously, XC services in and out of Reading probably would choose not to use this feature.

 

[radamfi]

Seats can be changed to face the other direction on NJ Transit trains between Trenton and New York. Maybe this is commonplace on local trains across the US? Haven't seen it in Europe.

 

[90019]

Some CityRail trains in Sydney have seats that the back can be flipped over to face the other way.

 

[Zoe]

SBB dos do the split accounting as it is part of the EEA...

Switzerland is not part of the EEA, only the EFTA. There are however bilateral agreements between Switzerland and the EU.

 

[Gordon]

I have not seen this feature in the UK; is it commonplace in Europe? .

Not commonplace, but there are examples.

1) Spanish FEVE class 2400 metre gauge DMUs used to have it
2) 1st class BLS coaches used on the Goldenpass trains Interlaken - Zweisimmen. These are incredibly confortable and it is really dissapointing that the journey isn't long enough to enjoy them!

 

[Schnellzug]

It used to be a feature on trams, I believe.

 

[TrainfanBen]

It used to be a feature on trams, I believe.

I just had the same thought.


Never realised my thread would get so many replies.

 

[exile]

It used to be a feature on trams, I believe.

And still is, in Blackpool.

 

[jopsuk]

some Japanese trains, especially Shinkansen, have entire seating blocks that rotate so that almost all the seats are always forward facing, airliner style.

 

[SwindonPkwy]

Another one from Japan: reserved and non-reserved seating in separate carriages. Used on the shinkansen but also express and semi-express services. You pay extra for a reserved seat and it is 100% guaranteed. Also, the conductor does not have to check tickets because he can see on his PDA exactly which seats have been sold and between which stations. The downside; whilst you will see spare seats in reserved carriages, non-reserved is usually standing room only!!

In theory, our system is better because all non-reserved seats are occupied before anybody has to stand. Of course, because they have not paid a premium for their tickets, some people just don't turn up. This then leads to people who couldn't care less sitting in reserved seats! I'm sure we have all experienced that!

One thing I am not sure of. Where the carriages are separate, where do season ticket holders sit?

 

[gordonthemoron]

DB IC in the 1980s used to have seats which would rotate 180 degrees when trains changed direction. Don't know if it was only 1st class

 

[radamfi]

No one has mentioned the obvious thing to learn from foreign railways - trains that connect with each other. See this for a good explanation of the Dutch network:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=783314&postcount=10

 

[gordonthemoron]

No one has mentioned the obvious thing to learn from foreign railways - trains that connect with each other. See this for a good explanation of the Dutch network:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=783314&postcount=10

connections in Germany are sometimes held, but frequently not.

 

[radamfi]

Even if connections don't always wait, timetabling should be designed with connections in mind.

 

[Gordon]

No one has mentioned the obvious thing to learn from foreign railways - trains that connect with each other.

IMHO Britain does no worse than any other country for connections. I think a lot of the discussion in this thread is dangerously close to ‘the grass is always greener’.

You might be surprised to hear that within the railway industry actually plenty of overseas railways are admiring of the British rail network and system. Many world railways have much worse financial arrangements and debt than in the UK.

I heartily agree with the previous comment about French railways. I love France and its railways but they can both be so terribly frustrating!

I have had several letters published over the years in national press highlighting this 'rose tinted view', most notably in the Times some years ago.

In the letter I politely responded to a hyperbolic article about TGV by pointing out that two French regional capitals (Le Mans and Tours) were (and still are to this day!) linked by two express trains a day, with the last train leaving around 5pm (thus useless for a business man who’s meeting overruns – who thus goes by car). I compared it to a similar route between two UK regional capitals which had a half hourly service running up to at least 10pm

 

[radamfi]

Obviously if you are talking about France then they don't really do connections that well so you don't use France as a comparison. Much better to use Switzerland and the Netherlands which genuinely do connections.

 

[exile]

Germany has the best integrated transport system in a country of similar size and population to the UK, IMO.

Spain and Italy aren't bad either - France - not that good once you're away from the main inter-city routes.

 

[Gordon]

France - not that good once you're away from the main inter-city routes.

Its not so much that, rather that if you are not going the way the majority are going you tend not to be provided for. In rural areas, certain connections are arranged, and kept, religiously, usually if it is the connection with the main regional capital or a connection to Paris, or just with the main flow of passengers - eg from A to B on a Friday and from B to A on a Sunday.

 

[exile]

Its not so much that, rather that if you are not going the way the majority are going you tend not to be provided for. In rural areas, certain connections are arranged, and kept, religiously, usually if it is the connection with the main regional capital or a connection to Paris, or just with the main flow of passengers - eg from A to B on a Friday and from B to A on a Sunday.

Sometimes the local (TER) timetables don't show the TGV or other inter city services - also, once you get off the train you may well be stuck, with few bus services, many of those designed to get kids to and from school. I once found myself virtually stranded in a village as the local taxi company stopped work at 5pm!

 

[EWS 58038]

Yeah and don't expect the frogs to work even if you pay double...

 

[stanley T]

Yes, SNCF is wonderful- if you want to go from Paris and if they are not on strike. France is actually a bad country to compare with the UK (as is Spain) - because by European standards the population density is low. That means that long fast LGVs are needed and can be built (relatively) cheaply, but cross country trains are sparse. Germany and Italy, both large and densely populated like the UK, are much better comparisons. They too have found it difficult and expensive to build high speed lines (ICEs spend a lot of time on classic lines at 160-200km/h), but there are plenty of local trains.

The UK is indeed not a bad train service these days, by comparison - the trains are even on time while delays are hardly unknown on DB! Even the much vaunted high fares is because of not comparing like with like, average fares (including advance) don't compare badly. Still wingeing and the grass is greener elsewhere is part of being British.The overcrowding problem is a victim of success.

Ironically back in BR days there was a so-so service but cheeseparing by the Treasury gave the taxpayer good value for money; now a better service but huge subsidies. Not somehow what the government had in mind when privatising..

 

[EWS 58038]

The UK is indeed not a bad train service these days.

True, there are many more trains these days compared to pre-privatisation era.

by comparison - the trains are even on time while delays are hardly unknown on DB!

Sorry, but those figures are really franchise specific. Where one franchise is reaching Swiss levels (C2C), the state run TOC is the worst, where punctuality often drops below 80%.

Even the much vaunted high fares is because of not comparing like with like, average fares (including advance) don't compare badly.

Do they? Wow I must be hallucinating. The average fare in the UK is 40% higher then the average fare of all TOC's on the continent, The Mcnulty report clearly indicates the UK rail system is too expansive for the fare payer and addresses that a reduction is needed to safe the railways befor no one will be able to use the system due to the exorbitant high ticket prices.

Still wingeing and the grass is greener elsewhere is part of being British.

That grass thing might well be true actually

The overcrowding problem is a victim of success.

No. It is due to a lack of common sense to invest in your system before it is too late. Do you really think the Dutch rail system would have done so well without our 300+ Double decker trains? I doubt it.

Here is my thought about that:
http://ottorail.blogspot.com/2011/02/there-is-hope-for-london-commuters-its.html

Please read it and tell me what you think.

 

[WestCoast]

The UK is indeed not a bad train service these days, by comparison - the trains are even on time while delays are hardly unknown on DB!

That's a bit of a sweeping statement. As EWS 58038 outlines, it varies considerably between operators in the UK and trains are delayed on a regular basis. Yes, DB has its fare share of delays but everyone tends to work together and connections can be held e.t.c. Same is true of other European operators. In the UK, the TOCs don't want to delay their trains (specially for another TOC) because they look after their own interests.

.The overcrowding problem is a victim of success.

No, it's all too easy to place the blame on that. Lack of forward planning and appropriate investment is more like it.

A good TOC to look at is the partly-Dutch owned Northern, who have been treated badly by the UK DfT. The Northern Rail franchise was tendered on the basis of ZERO-GROWTH. Was this realistic? Absolutely not. Instead passenger numbers have risen year after year. Northern looked into other options, including buying its own trains from the Chinese, but the DfT wouldn't accept any of that.

Many commuters in the North of England commute on 2-car Pacers, which lack capacity, standing room and a decent ride!

 

[EWS 58038]

Northern looked into other options, including buying its own trains from the Chinese, but the DfT wouldn't accept any of that.

And there it is... the entire UK rail system suffers badly due to Marsham street micro managing everything. You might as well just get rid of the entire franchise system and place everything under a Marsham street TOC...
lets call it Directly Operated Railways....

But seriously the DafT should "let go" of it. If a TOC wants to invest... let them do it. Who benefits from it... indeed the fare and tax payer, and wasn't that what a franchised rail system was all about?