The case for and against the effectiveness of face coverings and the mandating of their use

[The Ham]

Indeed but there is no evidence of any decrease in the R value

Masks have been mandated in many countries, each with its own different factors, but there is no evidence of any correlation between mask mandates and decreasing cases.

Indeed, however there's also no evidence that it doesn't (except in very high risk settings where it may have a small increase/decrease).

As where it could have a limited impact the exposure time would be limited and so the difference is only ever going to be small.

Other things (like washing hands, limiting exposure time and most of all the vaccine) will have much larger impacts.

It was worth trying face masks, and for those in high risk settings and at high risk to wear proper masks, however now it's not.

 

[Ianno87]

I just see masks as a cost versus benefit thing. For me, compared to other measures, the "cost" side of the equation is very low (compared to other measures) as masks simply don't really bother me**, so the fact that the benefits are debatable isn't hugely important.

**Yes, I know other people aren't so fortunate to find wearing them easy. No need to point that out.

 

[Cdd89]

I just see masks as a cost versus benefit thing. For me, compared to other measures, the "cost" side of the equation is very low (compared to other measures) as masks simply don't really bother me**, so the fact that the benefits are debatable isn't hugely important.

Out of interest, would you support a “no talking unless absolutely necessary” policy/law too? We know that vocalisation increases spread dramatically, and not talking is very low cost, in fact it could be a lot more effective than cloth masks.

 

[Ianno87]

Out of interest, would you support a “no talking unless absolutely necessary” policy/law too? We know that vocalisation increases spread dramatically, and not talking is very low cost, in fact it could be a lot more effective than cloth masks.

Well...no. Because clearly that would be a very high cost to pay and an impediment today to day life**.

I was here for sensible debate, not ridiculous strawmen and whataboutery.

I'll see myself out again. This forum is clearly totally incapable of sensible, reasonable debate on this topic (as per the premise of this thread)

**Yes, I know some people, such as those with hearing impediments have issues with masks for a not dissimilar reason. Don't bother pointing that out either.

 

[Cdd89]

Well...no. Because clearly that would be a very high cost to pay and an impediment today to day life**.

I was here for sensible debate, not ridiculous strawmen and whataboutery.

Gosh, I actually meant it genuinely! I thought it was an interesting parallel as most talking is non-essential and the costs are quite subjective. Sorry to have caused offence.

 

[Ianno87]

Gosh, I actually meant it genuinely! I thought it was an interesting parallel as most talking is non-essential and the costs are quite subjective. Sorry to have caused offence.

Mea culpa - I misread the premise/tone of your question. I apologise too

Similar answer though: clearly everybody has an individual threshold of what consistitutes "reasonable" measures relative to the ongoing prevalence of the virus.

(I guess I'm grumpy - the various lockdowns have been miserable, and compared to them a bit of cloth over my face in a few situations I don't find to be a big deal)

 

[roversfan2001]

(I guess I'm grumpy - the various lockdowns have been miserable, and compared to them a bit of cloth over my face in a few situations I don't find to be a big deal)

How about compared to pre-2020 normal? That's the ultimate end game here, or it should be. "At least it's not lockdown" shouldn't be a reason to keep an ineffective and divisive policy.

 

[Bantamzen]

I just see masks as a cost versus benefit thing. For me, compared to other measures, the "cost" side of the equation is very low (compared to other measures) as masks simply don't really bother me**, so the fact that the benefits are debatable isn't hugely important.

**Yes, I know other people aren't so fortunate to find wearing them easy. No need to point that out.

And the benefits.....?

 

[Ianno87]

How about compared to pre-2020 normal? That's the ultimate end game here, or it should be. "At least it's not lockdown" shouldn't be a reason to keep an ineffective and divisive policy.

Well yes, I want pre-2020 normal back as much as the next person. Believe me.

And the benefits.....?

I covered them already - I consider the cost side of the equation small, so even if the benefits are small or even non-existent, it's still worth it as it really doesn't "cost" me anything at all.

 

[Darandio]

Again, lots of talk about masks being an easier measure and low cost. Again, no talk about over a hundred billion of them being discarded monthly with zero plan on how to deal with it. No talk about the plastic contained even in disposable mask and zero plan for recycling.

The cost is the huge ecological disaster that is incoming.

 

[Ianno87]

Again, lots of talk about masks being an easier measure and low cost. Again, no talk about over a hundred billion of them being discarded monthly with zero plan on how to deal with it. No talk about the plastic contained even in disposable mask and zero plan for recycling.

The cost is the huge ecological disaster that is incoming.

I won't dispute that.

Hence why I use re-usable, washable ones.

 

[Bantamzen]

I covered them already - I consider the cost side of the equation small, so even if the benefits are small or even non-existent, it's still worth it as it really doesn't "cost" me anything at all.

So basically there are no tangible benefits, but potentially lots of cost?

 

[Ianno87]

So basically there are no tangible benefits, but potentially lots of cost?

The section after the comma is quite clearly not what I said (from my personal perspective).

 

[cactustwirly]

I just see masks as a cost versus benefit thing. For me, compared to other measures, the "cost" side of the equation is very low (compared to other measures) as masks simply don't really bother me**, so the fact that the benefits are debatable isn't hugely important.

**Yes, I know other people aren't so fortunate to find wearing them easy. No need to point that out.

Well it makes my job impossible because my glasses are steaming up and I can't see.
Because we use hazardous chemicals at my workplace, we have to wear safety specs. The decision has been taken to get rid of facemasks because the risk of eye damage/serious injury is much worse than potentially catching Covid.

 

[102 fan]

Well it makes my job impossible because my glasses are steaming up and I can't see.
Because we use hazardous chemicals at my workplace, we have to wear safety specs. The decision has been taken to get rid of facemasks because the risk of eye damage/serious injury is much worse than potentially catching Covid.

If your, or other glasses wearers find they start to steam up, does that mean the air is escaping out of the gap at the top of the mask?

 

[Cdd89]

Similar answer though: clearly everybody has an individual threshold of what consistitutes "reasonable" measures relative to the ongoing prevalence of the virus.

Which is sort of the point I was getting at - in that we can all do things that may decrease Covid risk, but only one of them (wearing a mask) is frequently called for to be mandated by law.

Another example (possibly a better example) might be social distancing; should it be illegal to sit within 2 metres of someone else if there is another option? I'd argue that's zero cost (maybe even negative cost!) and very high reward.

To answer my own question, having been on an un-airconditioned train today, "no talking" gets my vote as the lower-cost higher-reward measure, but that's mainly because I feel like a boiled egg!

 

[ChrisC]

Again, lots of talk about masks being an easier measure and low cost. Again, no talk about over a hundred billion of them being discarded monthly with zero plan on how to deal with it. No talk about the plastic contained even in disposable mask and zero plan for recycling.

The cost is the huge ecological disaster that is incoming.

Completely agree with you.
I also worry about the ecological effect of the millions of gallons of hand sanitiser that is being used throughout the world. I know we rub it on our hands but ultimately it must all be going somewhere.

 

[KeithMcC]

I also worry about the ecological effect of the millions of gallons of hand sanitiser that is being used throughout the world. I know we rub it on our hands but ultimately it must all be going somewhere.

Not to mention the millions of gallons of disinfectant that is being sprayed everywhere for no discernible benefit other than giving the appearance of action.

 

[island]

Well unless they have had a last minute that doesn't appear to be the case with my surgery and then there is the issue that without the law it will be difficult to get people to wear a face mask if they simply refuse.

Not really; they can (and will) refuse to see patients not wearing masks.

 

[farleigh]

Not really; they can (and will) refuse to see patients not wearing masks.

Genuine question - is that an ethical stance for a medical professional to take?

 

[island]

Genuine question - is that an ethical stance for a medical professional to take?

Whilst I am not a medical professional nor qualified to comment on ethics, I suspect they would get a long way by saying that telephone or video appointments are available for those who choose not to wear masks, and those whose medical records indicate a condition that would prior to 19 July have exempted them from wearing a face covering will continue to be so exempt.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Whilst I am not a medical professional nor qualified to comment on ethics, I suspect they would get a long way by saying that telephone or video appointments are available for those who choose not to wear masks, and those whose medical records indicate a condition that would prior to 19 July have exempted them from wearing a face covering will continue to be so exempt.

This isn’t a business it’s the NHS, we have all pre-paid and they should be duty bound.

I had both my jabs without a mask.

I have written to my Practice to get answers on their policy and how they expect to manage it as they are clearly not capable as they are a Practice not a virus monitoring and decision making outfit.

 

[farleigh]

Whilst I am not a medical professional nor qualified to comment on ethics, I suspect they would get a long way by saying that telephone or video appointments are available for those who choose not to wear masks, and those whose medical records indicate a condition that would prior to 19 July have exempted them from wearing a face covering will continue to be so exempt.

Thank you for taking the time to respond

 

[takno]

Whilst I am not a medical professional nor qualified to comment on ethics, I suspect they would get a long way by saying that telephone or video appointments are available for those who choose not to wear masks, and those whose medical records indicate a condition that would prior to 19 July have exempted them from wearing a face covering will continue to be so exempt.

You really can't run a doctor's surgery on the basis that people never develop new conditions.

Prior to 19 July I just had a history of fairly mild anxiety attacks, and even that is probably not actually documented on my records because it's never been something I'm anxious to discuss with whatever locum my practice has dug up on any given week. Nobody prior to that point had required me to cover my face, so covering my face had never revealed itself as a medical problem.

 

[roversfan2001]

The guard is absolutely correct.

In what sense? I suppose he’s right that Covid is still around, but that will be the case indefinitely. Does that mean the guard wants masks and distancing to be permanent then, I wonder?

 

[island]

The guard is perfectly welcome to ask people to wear masks, and people are perfectly welcome to decline his request, at least until the train is north of Berwick.

 

[Bantamzen]

I like the sound of that guard! Far too many people seemed to think that Covid disappeared at the strike of midnight on the 19th.

Did they? Who are these people, because most people know it hasn't but that at some point we need to stop pretending that hiding away and wearing face rags is actually going to stop the virus. Most adults in this country have had at least one dose, and a significant proportion both. Time as some say here to let the vaccine do they heavy lifting.

 

[Merseysider]

Did they? Who are these people, because most people know it hasn't but that at some point we need to stop pretending that hiding away and wearing face rags is actually going to stop the virus. Most adults in this country have had at least one dose, and a significant proportion both. Time as some say here to let the vaccine do they heavy lifting.

I agree.

We have done all we can via vaccines to protect the most vulnerable - ie those most at risk of serious illness or death.

Me ceasing to wear a mask on the bus or train will almost certainly not kill anybody, especially given that work request that I regularly test myself negative.

I may sound selfish here, but I have followed the rules on mask wearing for over a year now. So after looking after other people since the beginning, I am now looking after myself - I am much more comfortable without one, especially in this heat.

But I would never say or do anything to make a mask-wearer uncomfortable. Choice works both ways.

 

[Smidster]

Some encouraging posts here about the reduced numbers of mask wearers on public transport. Here in Bristol on the buses so far this week I'd say it's about 60% on average still wearing masks. Hope it further receeds over the coming weeks.

I don't understand why you "hope usage goes down"

I am very happy that it is a personal choice, and I will usually choose to not wear one, but I couldn't care less what other people are doing as it is a personal choice and I have no idea what factors have gone into that decision.

You complained earlier in this thread about someone who you thought was judging you for not wearing one - this kind of language could be interpreted as making a similar judgement of people who are wearing them as it infers they are making the "wrong" decision

It was always going to be a gradual process and that is not helped by the fact we are in the middle of another wave (though I know not as serious due to vaccines) and because of the ineptitude of our Government.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't understand why you "hope usage goes down"

I am very happy that it is a personal choice, and I will usually choose to not wear one, but I couldn't care less what other people are doing as it is a personal choice and I have no idea what factors have gone into that decision.

You complained earlier in this thread about someone who you thought was judging you for not wearing one - this kind of language could be interpreted as making a similar judgement of people who are wearing them as it infers they are making the "wrong" decision

It was always going to be a gradual process and that is not helped by the fact we are in the middle of another wave (though I know not as serious due to vaccines) and because of the ineptitude of our Government.

Seconded.