The damage done by overzealous revenue protection activities

[Antman]

The issue is what happens at the other end (which could be one hundreds of different stations) if the staff there claim you weren't waved through by the staff at Dartford

It's then difficult to prove you were given permission to travel without a ticket.

Maybe they'll just have to take passengers word for it? Oh no what am I thinking, rail users can never be trusted. They'll just have to phone Dartford to confirm it then. Actually in fairness the staff at Dartford are generally good and would have probably notified other stations anyway.

The point I'm making is that TOC's can provide inadequate facilities to purchase tickets and yet the onus is still on the passenger and clearly that's wrong.

 

[najaB]

The point I'm making is that TOC's can provide inadequate facilities to purchase tickets and yet the onus is still on the passenger and clearly that's wrong.

I'll point out again that the majority of problems are occurring with a small number of TOCs. The problem isn't the legislative framework, it is with specific TOCs.

It isn't necessary to have wholesale reform of an entire industry based on the actions of a minority of individuals - it isn't the most productive way to deal with the issue.

 

[radamfi]

Presumably if their operator does operate from the station they have no problem after showing their staff pass.

If Chiltern passes are valid on ATW (I'm not sure if they are but they have the same parent company) I wouldn't be surprised if a someone with a Chiltern pass who had alighted an ATW service at Manchester Piccadilly running in to a problem with the RPIs and someone showing a SWT pass after alighting a Northern service getting through. The RPIs aren't brilliant here.

I don't see that as acceptable behaviour. That is like a normal passenger flashing a ticket to the RPI that wasn't used on the train journey just taken in the hope that it would get them through. He ought to queue up with the rest and tell the RPI the truth. He should say to the RPI that his staff pass is not valid on Northern but the guard let him on for free anyway. In his day job or at his keyboard, a TOC staff member that preaches zero tolerance on ticketless travel should face the consequences of his actions when travelling. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

 

[Clip]

I'm pretty sure that if there is sufficient will it's possible to make them either resistant to vandals, or very cheap to repair/replace. If an area is so rough that upkeep is excessively expensive then you're no worse of than we are today.

Cool. How much would you like to pay extra to ensure this? These were made in the 80s so are very basic machines. How does a quid on every ticket sound?

Car parks seem to cope.

And you can categorically state this for every car park in the land can you? Nice.

This excuse comes up a lot and is unsustainable (dare I say "rubbish" even). It sounds like the company line from an industry that lacks drive, innovation and imagination (I'm sure this isn't the image the railway industry wants to convey, but it does come across that way).

I used to live in Portsmouth where my local station was Fratton - not the nicest area of town! If I recall correctly there were two TVMs outside the station accessible all hours and I'm sure one took cash. I have no doubt they were the target of vandalism (but then so were traffic lights, road signs, parked cars, shop fronts... the list goes on) but they were nevertheless always operational when I had cause to use them (very often). Those machines have been in situ for at least eight years, and SWT clearly haven't felt the need to remove them because of this so-called rampant vandalism. If it can be done there why not elsewhere?

I'm sure with a bit of imagination (and no doubt money) TOCs could invest in vandal proofing their equipment if that is the actual reason for holding back on this.

You, and the railway industry at large, seem to object to passengers finding excuses for not having a ticket. In fact I and many other passengers object to this too. So why not remove these excuses peddled by the fare evaders by providing adequate ticket issuing facilities across the board? If it simply cannot be done (because the industry has no money or because the industry suffers a chronic lack of drive) then why on earth is it investing in a penalty scheme which assumes universal availability of ticket issuing facilities?
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No one is suggesting people go out and break the law. Some people have suggested the law is unjust. Others have suggested TOCs should do more to facilitate and encourage legitimate travel by improving ticketing facilities.

Excuse? First hand evidence and just as I have mentioned before when FGW and Chiltern TVMs got hit hard when robbed but don't let facts get in your way of a good unfactual rant?

So how much do you all want to pay for unbreakable machines at every station with phone connection so you can get what you want?

Put a ball park figure on it because you will be well off.

We don't want rules. .

.

And there we have it. No rules Just do what you want and pay whenever you want. That's what it boils down to eh. Amazing.

Its a shame my rant got pulled but such is life and being precious and attacking the railway seems to be a theme on here and one that people can get away with merry abandon.

No wonder so many industry professionals that gave insight on various subjects on here are not posting as much both in here and other boards within the forum.

 

[najaB]

Cool. How much would you like to pay extra to ensure this? These were made in the 80s so are very basic machines. How does a quid on every ticket sound?

The machines themselves probably don't need much in the way of strengthening, just build a heavy wrought iron casing to go around them. Plus, as I said above if there are vandalism hotspots then don't replace the machines - you're no worse off that you are today.

 

[radamfi]

There is a big city/conurbation in the UK which has been particularly noted for high crime levels over many years. It has two railway systems. One of them has ticket machines at all stations, despite running through many high crime areas. The other rail system has very few machines because crime levels are too high.

 

[34D]

And there we have it. No rules Just do what you want and pay whenever you want. That's what it boils down to eh. Amazing.

Its a shame my rant got pulled but such is life and being precious and attacking the railway seems to be a theme on here and one that people can get away with merry abandon.

No wonder so many industry professionals that gave insight on various subjects on here are not posting as much both in here and other boards within the forum.

So I go to an Indian restaurant tonight. What rules (silly or otherwise) apply to that?

None, except the implication that in exchange for the consideration they give me (the curry) I will give money as my consideration.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Also the explicit making off without payment offence from the theft act, which applies equally to the railways

 

[Llanigraham]

So I go to an Indian restaurant tonight. What rules (silly or otherwise) apply to that?

None, except the implication that in exchange for the consideration they give me (the curry) I will give money as my consideration.

A restaurant and the railway are not comparable!!

And actually there may well be several Laws and local By-Laws that could cover your use and behaviour at a restaurant.

 

[34D]

A restaurant and the railway are not comparable!!

And actually there may well be several Laws and local By-Laws that could cover your use and behaviour at a restaurant.

They are both services that people choose the avail themselves of.

And we aren't suggesting that normal laws wouldn't be applicable to either situation.

 

[Agent_c]

So I go to an Indian restaurant tonight. What rules (silly or otherwise) apply to that?

None, except the implication that in exchange for the consideration they give me (the curry) I will give money as my consideration.

Incorrect. You are still bound by the norms of Contract law. You form a contract that is subject to certain legislative and other legal rules. The Restaurant has a duty of care to you (and has to obey by other hygene rules - some of which may seem very silly) and you will be obligated to pay for that service having recieved it. You could see a criminal charge should you recieve a service through deception, or "steal" food.

When you ride the rails, you form a contract with the TOCs, which includes the NCoC. The railways have a duty of care to you (which will mean compliance with some arcane health and safety laws), and may, like a dine-and-dasher, see a criminal charge applied if you fail to pay for the service you receive.

 

[Llanigraham]

They are both services that people choose the avail themselves of.

And we aren't suggesting that normal laws wouldn't be applicable to either situation.

They are different services that are not comparable.

You stated earlier there should be "no rules". Are you therefore in favour of a "free for all" with no method of "control"?

 

[Starmill]

I've not bothered to comment thus far because crehld had been doing a sterling job of pointing out how the railways need to develop and grow in order to solve the challenges of the modern day in a way that Northern simply are not doing at present with their approach to revenue that is widely accepted as highly disengeous.

Good models of revenue protection exist that could be adapted for use on Northern without great cost or difficulty, which are frequently mentioned and nobody has come up with any reasons as to why these aren't suitable in Manchester or Yorkshire.

Many contribitors seek to excuse Northern of their responsibility to invest in ticket issuing facilities, giving the lie to their statements that they merely wish that everyone pays the correct fare for their journey.

It is against the law to use a service without paying for it. This is true and would continue to be no less true independently of the Railway Byelwas and Regulation of the Railways Act. These bring questionable ethical value to the train operators as tools to defend against fare evasion, and there is a wealth of evidence they they can damage the reputation of the whole industry in addition to treating consumers in a way that wouldn't be acceptable in any other sector.

Anyone who'd like to argue that passengers should have to pay more in order to offer themselves an opportunity to buy a ticket (which just so happens to be the only way for them avoid a criminal record when travelling by train) who claims to work within the industry perhaps needs to have a long hard think about their career, and possibly their choice of forum. Fortunately I'm sure nobody would seriously take this position.

 

[najaB]

...Anyone who'd like to argue that passengers should have to pay more in order to offer themselves an opportunity to buy a ticket (which just so happens to be the only way for them avoid a criminal record when travelling by train)...

"Should": no. "Will likely have to": yes. If, as has been asserted, TOCs such as Northern generate more revenue from their enforcement actions than they would from the corresponding ticket sales it seems unavoidable.

Ticket offices and machines don't come for free and everyone buying tickets apparently will reduce income, services are already running close to capacity and there's no additional money forthcoming from central government so where else can the money come from but the fare-payer?

 

[crehld]

Excuse? First hand evidence and just as I have mentioned before when FGW and Chiltern TVMs got hit hard when robbed but don't let facts get in your way of a good unfactual rant?

So how much do you all want to pay for unbreakable machines at every station with phone connection so you can get what you want?

Put a ball park figure on it because you will be well off.

It is an excuse. It's advancing a reason why something cannot be done when it otherwise should be. I'm not sure what's causing your confusion over this basic piece of vocabulary here?

Anyway had you bothered to read my post you will have noted I gave the illustrative example of Fratton based on five years daily commuting from that station. Do you have anything substantive to suggest these five years worth of direct empirical experience are not factual? At best it is a factual rant rather than an unfactual one.

If the TVMs at Fratton can survive in an area of high crime and vandalism why can it not work elsewhere? There has yet to be an answer to this qu

You will also note (but didn't so I only assume you again didn't bother to read my post) that I acknowledge some TOCs lack the resources and / or innovative capacity to install facilities everywhere. I consequently outlined two alternatives. Firstly invest in more ticket staff on board. Or secondly don't operate a penalty scheme which assumes universal availability of ticket facilities when these cannot be guaranteed. The absence of response to these alternatives is notable.

For the record I believe many passengers would be happy to pay more if they got something for it. Many people object to paying more and then seeing no improvement in facilities or service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a big city/conurbation in the UK which has been particularly noted for high crime levels over many years. It has two railway systems. One of them has ticket machines at all stations, despite running through many high crime areas. The other rail system has very few machines because crime levels are too high.

Precisely. I suspect we are thinking of the same one. Doesn't have some yellow trams, does it?
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Ticket offices and machines don't come for free and everyone buying tickets apparently will reduce income, services are already running close to capacity and there's no additional money forthcoming from central government so where else can the money come from but the fare-payer?

Indeed. But it is fairer that we have a properly run system and we pay a little more for it than an unfair system costing less. It took them a while, but a certain blue and yellow airline did realise that in the end.

 

[Steveoh]

I'll point out again that the majority of problems are occurring with a small number of TOCs. The problem isn't the legislative framework, it is with specific TOCs.

It isn't necessary to have wholesale reform of an entire industry based on the actions of a minority of individuals - it isn't the most productive way to deal with the issue.

But surely the problem IS the legislative framework as it allows rogue TOCs to operate in this way with impunity. What's to stop other TOCs adopting this strategy if they see the ones doing it raising revenue?

 

[radamfi]

Precisely. I suspect we are thinking of the same one. Doesn't have some yellow trams, does it?
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There's another city with a more recent reputation for crime that has just expanded its tram network with green/grey trams, where they changed from selling tickets from a conductor to having ticket machines at all stops.

The Netherlands has machines at all stations nationwide and I think Switzerland does too. Germany seems to have machines either at the station or on the train - is that right?

 

[stut]

The Netherlands also has a nationwide smartcard, making the whole process much simpler. As long as you've touched in, you have a valid ticket. (Admittely, this can be gamed in countries like Denmark, where fines for failing to touch out are around £4 - reasonable for a short journey, but the touched-in card would be valid from Kastrup all the way to Aalborg... You get a limit of these before your card gets barred, but it's still open to abuse.)

Switzerland and Germany do have some stations that are entirely unmanned - but then the rule is that you must actively seek out the guard on boarding. But then, the service will have a guard, and the guard will be in a designated spot, so there's little room for error.

Japan has the right attitude, IMO.

The vast majority of stations are gated. You need a ticket to get in. And you need a ticket to get out. But if you buy the wrong ticket, or you change your plans, no problem - you are perfectly entitled to correct your fare at the exit. There is no assumption of trying to cheat the system, but you won't be able to leave unless you can show you have paid the appropriate fare.

On lines where there are ungated stations, you will pay or show your ticket on exiting the train, which will be through a single set of doors.

The problem in the UK is that we have such a complex fare system. If you buy a ticket in Switzerland, you are buying a single or a return. There's a few other variants, but that's pretty much it. No off-peak, off-peak day, super off-peak, all with different time restrictions depending on where you are, and which journey you've done. In Denmark, you touch in and out - none of this pre-loading your ticket nonsense.

I have no problem going after people avoiding to pay, but there's an awful lot who make genuine mistakes - very easy to do with our overcomplicated fare structure. Should we really go after those people to catch a handful who may try to game the system?

 

[najaB]

What's to stop other TOCs adopting this strategy if they see the ones doing it raising revenue?

As has been pointed out to me, there are a small number of TOCs who can get away with it (for now). The majority cannot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Netherlands has machines at all stations nationwide and I think Switzerland does too. Germany seems to have machines either at the station or on the train - is that right?

I don't know if it's still the case, but some *very* rural lines have nothing, but if you have no ticket you have to let the driver know on boarding and he makes a note of this in case inspectors board. I believe you can still pay on board at a smallish supplement on IC/ICE but not on regional services in Verkehrsverbuende, and there is generally a clear indication ("Einstieg nur mit gueltiger Fahrkarte") by the door where PFs apply.
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There's another city with a more recent reputation for crime that has just expanded its tram network with green/grey trams, where they changed from selling tickets from a conductor to having ticket machines at all stops.

Funny, that. Another city as well

 

[najaB]

The problem in the UK is that we have such a complex fare system. If you buy a ticket in Switzerland, you are buying a single or a return. There's a few other variants, but that's pretty much it. No off-peak, off-peak day, super off-peak, all with different time restrictions depending on where you are, and which journey you've done. In Denmark, you touch in and out - none of this pre-loading your ticket nonsense.

The fare system can be simplified. I'll give you two guesses which direction the majority of fares will go. But that is a discussion for another thread.

I have no problem going after people avoiding to pay, but there's an awful lot who make genuine mistakes - very easy to do with our overcomplicated fare structure. Should we really go after those people to catch a handful who may try to game the system?

Very few TOCs deliberately go after people who have made genuine mistakes. Don't forget, we don't ever hear from the people who are given the benefit of the doubt. An example from my personal experience: I was travelling to Blackburn and lost my ticket somewhere between the barriers at Dundee station and the ticket check on the train before Haymarket. The guard on the Scotrail train said "You must've had a ticket to get past the barrier so see what the guard on the Virgin train says." Got on the Virgin train, explained what had happened - the guard could have reported me, but instead said she had to charge me but only for an Off-Peak Single from Haymarket.

Another example that I witnessed not that long ago - passenger on a XC service between York and Newcastle couldn't find her ticket. Told the guard "I must've lost it." Guard tells her "Look again." "No, I can't find it, I must've lost it". "Look again." "No, I definitely can't find it." "Look again, I saw something orange there." "Oh, here it is." "See, told you it was there. Have a nice day".

 

[Bletchleyite]

But even if they weren't simplified, the majority of the walk-up fares structure is simple enough to sell from TVMs, because that is where the majority of it is sold from throughout the widespread Penalty Fares areas that exist throughout the South East.

 

[bradders1983]

Mentioned in another thread but probably more relevant in here (and probably only relevant to Northern) - why dont the revenue concentrate on the stations with no barriers? Everyone needs a ticket to get in/out at Leeds so whats the point of concentrating there?

 

[Agent_c]

Mentioned in another thread but probably more relevant in here (and probably only relevant to Northern) - why dont the revenue concentrate on the stations with no barriers? Everyone needs a ticket to get in/out at Leeds so whats the point of concentrating there?

The reason why the station has no barriers is lower passenger numbers, whereas at Leeds they can catch short-farers and other ticketing anomalies, but in greater number due to higher flow through.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Everyone needs a ticket to get in/out at Leeds so whats the point of concentrating there?

££££££££££.

You can't get out of the station without a ticket, so people will be queuing at the ticket window. It's like shooting fish in a barrel asking people where they came from and Penalty Faking anyone who walked past a ticket office.

They have similar stings at Manchester Victoria and Liverpool Lime Street.

Now short-farers should have the book thrown at them- there shouldn't be an £80 Penalty Fake for those people- but the issue is that Northern aren't prosecuting them, they're just giving everyone a £80 Penalty Fake. If you've walked past a ticket office you may as well lie about where you've travelled from and save yourself a few quid, the Penalty Fake is going to be the same*.

*No, I'm not advocating fraud, I'm merely pointing out that if you get the same "fine" regardless you may as well be dishonest for all the different it makes. And yes, I know they don't have to offer a Penalty Fake to short-farers, but they do.

Very few TOCs deliberately go after people who have made genuine mistakes.

I agree with you, and think we're making similar points from different sides.

The fact that only Northern do this is to the credit of other TOCs, although Abellio Greater Anglia (I wonder what they have in common with Northern, eh?) have started doing it and FCC had cottoned on to it before they lost the franchise.

The fact that Northern are allowed to do it is a problem with the law. The fact that they have broken their promise to only "warn" first time offenders, and that nobody can make them keep their word, is a huge problem with the law.

A law that can be exploited in this manner is a bad law.

 

[najaB]

The fact that Northern are allowed to do it is a problem with the law. The fact that they have broken their promise to only "warn" first time offenders, and that nobody can make them keep their word, is a huge problem with the law.

A law that can be exploited in this manner is a bad law.

I'd more say it's a problem with the lack of an effective regulator. Any law that has teeth can be misused, and a law that lacks teeth is pointless.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'd more say it's a problem with the lack of an effective regulator.

Definitely agree on that.

 

[crehld]

I'd more say it's a problem with the lack of an effective regulator. Any law that has teeth can be misused, and a law that lacks teeth is pointless.

I am also in agreement, but feel it is worth pointing out that changing the law is a form of regulation. The current bylaws focus heavily on how passengers should behave. Perhaps they should be ameneded to include more robust statutory obligations on the part of the railway industry too? This might be an effective form of regulation.

 

[bb21]

I'd more say it's a problem with the lack of an effective regulator. Any law that has teeth can be misused, and a law that lacks teeth is pointless.

That I think just about sums up the core issues we have.

On that note, sorry but the thread has run its course imo. I am fed up of reading pages of squabbling, amongst which some very good points were made but were buried because of irrelevant wibble.

I may tidy the thread if I get time to do so.