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The decline of GWR...

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Would the ASLEF agreement mention any specific rolling stock?

Depends on the specific agreement I believe some will mention stock some won’t. It also depends on the formations but because GWR run 12 car class 387 I’d imagine it allows for the maximum formation. I can’t see any real argument preventing DOO on ASLEFs side for example they are newly designed modern trains with in cab displays. You could easily argue they are safer and better then the old style turbo stock which they have no problem operating DOO.
 
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Pete_uk

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I have noticed that a few paddington to Cheltenham services are regularly late these days. 1G11 is one such service
 

jimm

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RMT are allegedly balloting HSS Train Managers for strike action over the class 800 running DOO to Oxford on an existing DOO route, surely if it’s an unguarded DOO cleared route with ASLEF agreement (once given) they haven’t got a leg to stand on.

If this is true, it's another example where you have to wondering where the RMT is coming from.

GWR said a while back - I think the actual letter is somewhere on the RMT's website - that all Cotswold Line services worked by IETs would have a train manager on board throughout their journeys, which means more work for train managers and presumably more train managers employed as a result. For 20-odd years a lot of the Turbo-worked services running to/from points west of Oxford have operated without a guard on board between Oxford and Paddington.

GWR's stated policy will result in fewer DOO services operating on the route, which is surely right up the RMT's street?
 

cactustwirly

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If this is true, it's another example where you have to wondering where the RMT is coming from.

GWR said a while back - I think the actual letter is somewhere on the RMT's website - that all Cotswold Line services worked by IETs would have a train manager on board throughout their journeys, which means more work for train managers and presumably more train managers employed as a result. For 20-odd years a lot of the Turbo-worked services running to/from points west of Oxford have operated without a guard on board between Oxford and Paddington.

GWR's stated policy will result in fewer DOO services operating on the route, which is surely right up the RMT's street?

I think the RMT are using this opportunity to force GWR to add the Guards to all the IETs, regardless of what crews driving it and how long the route has been DOO.

I don't think the dispute will last long...
 

fgwrich

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For 3 days in a row now I've heard the 'GWR Service to so and so is Delayed or Cancelled due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time' excuse coming out at both Reading and Didcot - It's starting to become as repetitive as "See it Say It Sorted" now. To GWRs credit however, there were far more than the usual 8 car 387s out today though - Needed for the events at Windsor of course, and the "HST GTI" has also replaced a sprinter in the West Country to provide more units in the Exeter area - Exeter Chiefs sell out game at Sandy Park.
 

PHILIPE

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For 3 days in a row now I've heard the 'GWR Service to so and so is Delayed or Cancelled due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time' excuse coming out at both Reading and Didcot - It's starting to become as repetitive as "See it Say It Sorted" now. To GWRs credit however, there were far more than the usual 8 car 387s out today though - Needed for the events at Windsor of course, and the "HST GTI" has also replaced a sprinter in the West Country to provide more units in the Exeter area - Exeter Chiefs sell out game at Sandy Park.

HST GTI actually came out to replace a failed 150202. GWR Twitter was telling people that service to St James Park had been strengthened but Journey Check showed many short formed on the route never mind strenghtening
 

cb00

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Out of interest, is there a site where delays and the reason for the delay can be located? RTT only goes back 7 days.

The journey in question was a month ago and whilst services were cancelled due to a shortage of crew, GWR have denied a claim suggesting that it was planned engineering work and thus no compensation is due. Thanks.
 
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Didn’t affect me but just noticed that GWR is the new CrossCountry by having a 5 carriage IEP on the 1645 Pad - Swansea service today...Madness...
 

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43096

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All IETs available for traffic this evening are out.
Well yes. It’s the unavailable IETs that are the issue. Three short for this evening I believe. Or are you saying the 5-vice-10s are all down to lack of crews?
 

JN114

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Well yes. It’s the unavailable IETs that are the issue. Three short for this evening I believe. Or are you saying the 5-vice-10s are all down to lack of crews?

3 unit diagrams uncovered (3x 5 vice 10), should all be in JourneyCheck.

At the present time no short forms down to crew; that issue should have largely evaporated now with new agreements in place.
 

tiptoptaff

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Well yes. It’s the unavailable IETs that are the issue. Three short for this evening I believe. Or are you saying the 5-vice-10s are all down to lack of crews?

All available in service doesn't mean all are available. There are 4 unavailable for GWR traffic. All available are out. Not all needed are available.
 

43096

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All available in service doesn't mean all are available. There are 4 unavailable for GWR traffic. All available are out. Not all needed are available.
Yes, I know that. The point is that posting comments like "all sets available for traffic are out" is irrelevant if the sets aren't available.

It is to be hoped that Agility are being whacked in the pocket for this non-availability; though of course everyone would prefer that they deliver what they are contracted to.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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The delivery programme of 800s is running several weeks late. In addition, the availability of nominated spare sets for driver training runs was only available until the end of the Winter timetable. (It was assumed that all drivers would now be trained but the 105 day delay and gauging problems conspired to seriously delay it, discussed on this forum ad-nauseam.) Yet due to contracts and politics, the HST release programme is running to schedule. Given GWR receive one additional 800 set each week, it goes without saying that there will be a unit shortage for the first few weeks every time fresh diagrams change from HST to IET. Today they were 3 sets down, next week after another delivery it will probably be 2, then 1...

The next HST diagrams go over to IET at the end of June, probably same will happen again.
(Incidentally - all those who said the pairs of 5-cars should have been single 9 car sets, delivery delays would have been resulting in multiple cancellations, rather than short forms. Just a thought.)
 

jimm

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Yes, I know that. The point is that posting comments like "all sets available for traffic are out" is irrelevant if the sets aren't available.

It is to be hoped that Agility are being whacked in the pocket for this non-availability; though of course everyone would prefer that they deliver what they are contracted to.

Not sure what you are getting at - if a set is sat in a depot out of action for whatever reason, then it is by definition not available for traffic.

The contract is simple enough - Hitachi must turn out enough sets to work a specified number of diagrams each day - if they do not cover a diagram, they don't get paid for it.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Not sure what you are getting at - if a set is sat in a depot out of action for whatever reason, then it is by definition not available for traffic.

The contract is simple enough - Hitachi must turn out enough sets to work a specified number of diagrams each day - if they do not cover a diagram, they don't get paid for it.

Unfortunately, given Hitachi managed to get a very financially healthy contract out of the DfT (*spits on ground) for the IEP order, I expect the UK taxpayer has indirectly paid the fines themselves through the exorbitant cost of the train fleet.
 

jimm

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The structure of the financial arrangements for IEP was chosen by the DfT/Government. And the fact remains that if there's no train out there working, there's no payment, so less healthy for Hitachi, whatever way you want to cut it.
 

Charlie M.

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Is it likely that from July, the majority of Cheltenham Spa services will be a 9-car IET? Considering that they only run every two hours on a two hour journey, only 3 would need to be out. And is the line still going to turn hourly to London, rather than terminate at Swindon?
 

PHILIPE

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Is it likely that from July, the majority of Cheltenham Spa services will be a 9-car IET? Considering that they only run every two hours on a two hour journey, only 3 would need to be out. And is the line still going to turn hourly to London, rather than terminate at Swindon?

You'll find many of the answers here. Just go to the most recent posts to avoid wading all the way through the lengthy thread.

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-intercity-express-train-iep-initial-diagrams-allocations.153431

Hoping it will be an improvement and not a decline
 

jimm

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Is it likely that from July, the majority of Cheltenham Spa services will be a 9-car IET? Considering that they only run every two hours on a two hour journey, only 3 would need to be out. And is the line still going to turn hourly to London, rather than terminate at Swindon?

No particular reason that off-peak services would need a nine-car set, same as they don't need an HST now, but if a nine-coach train is what's diagrammed, that's what is most likely to appear. The hourly service will start in January.
 

causton

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Out of interest, is there a site where delays and the reason for the delay can be located? RTT only goes back 7 days.

The journey in question was a month ago and whilst services were cancelled due to a shortage of crew, GWR have denied a claim suggesting that it was planned engineering work and thus no compensation is due. Thanks.
http://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/

You can put the journey in here and play with the settings to show all the trains and work it out :)
 

Charlie M.

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No particular reason that off-peak services would need a nine-car set, same as they don't need an HST now, but if a nine-coach train is what's diagrammed, that's what is most likely to appear. The hourly service will start in January.

Practically, a 5 car would be over crowded though. If it was 7 then fair enough.
 

jimm

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Is there some reason you feel a need to keep asking related questions about the Cheltenham service in two different places? Perhaps pick one of them and stick to it.

No idea why you think there are vast armies of passengers on off-peak services on the Cheltenham/Gloucester route - there aren't, unless it's National Hunt Festival week.

There was a reason lots of the off-peak services were worked by 180s in the last decade - because they were an appropriate size of train for the traffic on offer.

The level of off-peak traffic hasn''t changed radically since then, but HSTs have been used since 2009 as that's all that was available - and when five 180s came back that was only enough for the Cotswold Line.

When the hourly service starts, that will be five-car sets outside the peaks - and probably on the services in the contra-peak direction too, ie out of London in the morning peak and back from Gloucestershire in the afternoon peak, reflecting the tidal nature of the traffic flows.
 

w1bbl3

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Practically, a 5 car would be over crowded though. If it was 7 then fair enough.

I'm not sure a five car would be overcrowded between Cheltenham and Swindon, practically the busiest services are the 17:54 SWI > CNM which was until recently a two car 15x that would leave Swindon full and standing but after Stroud have empty seats. The switch over to three car 166's seems that the service no longer departs Swindon full and standing.
Then in the morning then 7:31 CNM > SWI and I can't recall it being anywhere near to full as a HST before Swindon.

The the route feels ideal for the five car throughout the day but to control overcrowding would need to be set down only at Didcot and Reading on peak London bound flows and pickup only on the evening peak contra-flow.
GWR would need to provide extra seats for Didcot and Reading from somewhere which isn't obvious. A 2x5 car service split / joining at Swindon be the most logical balance of capacity but that would need the London bound service timetabling to always depart after the Cheltenham service.

A nine car IET at 576 standard seats is a very large capacity increase for a service where GWR do not seem to have shown any preference or need explicitly diagram high density HST's on. However the extra seating will prove very useful for Didcot and Reading commuters with an extra 200 "spare" seats.
Remember a five car 800 has 290 standard seats vs 375 for a long distance HST or 461 high density, so is realistically equivalent to a HST (2+7).
 

Charlie M.

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Majority of the diagrams up until January will be 9 cars according to the company, but when they introduce the hourly service I would agree that five car units would work absolutely fine.
 

jayah

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GWR would need to provide extra seats for Didcot and Reading from somewhere which isn't obvious. A 2x5 car service split / joining at Swindon be the most logical balance of capacity but that would need the London bound service timetabling to always depart after the Cheltenham service.

A nine car IET at 576 standard seats is a very large capacity increase for a service where GWR do not seem to have shown any preference or need explicitly diagram high density HST's on. However the extra seating will prove very useful for Didcot and Reading commuters with an extra 200 "spare" seats.
Remember a five car 800 has 290 standard seats vs 375 for a long distance HST or 461 high density, so is realistically equivalent to a HST (2+7).

It doesn't sounds like an easy puzzle to solve. Reading and to a lesser extent Didcot are crying out for extra capacity. The morning peak trains are already so full they often can't be boarded and there aren't obvious paths for any more as the main line track capacity is saturated once the 4x HeX are brought into play. Run 5cars off-peak and they need to be doubled up somehow in both peaks, as for splitting as constrained locations like Swindon or Oxford - sounds like a real tangle. Since First Class was reduced, the HST is more like 460-550 standard seats so far in excess of a 5 car IET. The prudent approach might have been a mixed fleet of say 6-7 & 10 car IETs if the peak / off peak duties could be separated on the grounds that 6-7 to Cheltenham off peak is no more overkill than today.
 

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Carlisle

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If this is true, it's another example where you have to wondering where the RMT is coming from.
Not really, Southern at least had the integrity to stick to their published DOO plans whereas GWR hoped quietly surrendering almost all of theirs to the RMT/ASLEF would be an easy way to guarantee peace until the end of their franchise, bigger fools them, I’m all for good unions and workers rights but i think you’ll find weak management rarely delivers anything worthwhile.
 
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jimm

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Full-on driver-only operation means just that - no other member of staff on board the trains.

What the then FGW said in 2015 was that it wanted the drivers to have full control of opening and closing the doors - it was made quite clear at the time by GWR that there would continue to be a train manager on board IET services other than the Oxford route and, as I said above, that there would be more train manager duties on the Oxford/Cotswold route because a number of existing DOO Turbo services would be replaced by IETs.

The full letter from FGW to staff is in a thread here somewhere. It said something along the lines that only in exceptional circumstances would a train operate without a train manager - though that if that was the case in practice, it may well have helped ease cancellation problems on occasion in recent months when an IET-trained train manager was not available.

Frankly, after what Southern's 'integrity' has done for rail services generally in that area and passenger numbers in particular, then a pragmatic decision to avoid a repeat of that in the GW area seems an eminently sensible approach to take.

That the RMT apparently still won't leave things alone over what will be a limited number of DOO services on a single route where DOO operation has been a fact of life for 25 years - and will be at a reduced level in future anyway - is just silly, frankly.

It doesn't sounds like an easy puzzle to solve. Reading and to a lesser extent Didcot are crying out for extra capacity. The morning peak trains are already so full they often can't be boarded and there aren't obvious paths for any more as the main line track capacity is saturated once the 4x HeX are brought into play. Run 5cars off-peak and they need to be doubled up somehow in both peaks, as for splitting as constrained locations like Swindon or Oxford - sounds like a real tangle. Since First Class was reduced, the HST is more like 460-550 standard seats so far in excess of a 5 car IET. The prudent approach might have been a mixed fleet of say 6-7 & 10 car IETs if the peak / off peak duties could be separated on the grounds that 6-7 to Cheltenham off peak is no more overkill than today.

The reason behind the five/nine split is simple enough and was discussed previously in the Class 800 thread - near enough having the same passenger capacity on a 2x5 formation and a nine-car, and actually fitting the trains into the platforms at Paddington - 2x5 just about fits, 2x6 wouldn't.

There is plenty of experience of using five-car trains outside the peaks on the Cheltenham route, in the shape of 180s (which have 40 fewer seats per train) - and at the current two-hourly frequency - without overcrowding problems, so I don't envisage any in the future with a train every hour, plus 2x5 or nine-coach trains in the direction of the main peak flows morning and afternoon.
 
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jayah

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Full-on driver-only operation means just that - no other member of staff on board the trains.

What the then FGW said in 2015 was that it wanted the drivers to have full control of opening and closing the doors - it was made quite clear at the time by GWR that there would continue to be a train manager on board IET services other than the Oxford route and, as I said above, that there would be more train manager duties on the Oxford/Cotswold route because a number of existing DOO Turbo services would be replaced by IETs.

The full letter from FGW to staff is in a thread here somewhere. It said something along the lines that only in exceptional circumstances would a train operate without a train manager - though that if that was the case in practice, it may well have helped ease cancellation problems on occasion in recent months when an IET-trained train manager was not available.

Frankly, after what Southern's 'integrity' has done for rail services generally in that area and passenger numbers in particular, then a pragmatic decision to avoid a repeat of that in the GW area seems an eminently sensible approach to take.

That the RMT apparently still won't leave things alone over what will be a limited number of DOO services on a single route where DOO operation has been a fact of life for 25 years - and will be at a reduced level in future anyway - is just silly, frankly.



The reason behind the five/nine split is simple enough and was discussed previously in the Class 800 thread - near enough having the same passenger capacity on a 2x5 formation and a nine-car, and actually fitting the trains into the platforms at Paddington - 2x5 just about fits, 2x6 wouldn't.

There is plenty of experience of using five-car trains outside the peaks on the Cheltenham route, in the shape of 180s (with 40 fewer seats per train) - and at the current two-hourly frequency - without overcrowding problems, so I don't envisage any in the future with a train every hour, plus 2x5 or nine-coach trains in the direction of the main peak flows morning and afternoon.

The same capacity as 2x5 means losing the extra capacity that would come from 1x10 - capacity that is worth a full carriage and is already needed now.

Unfortunately the precedent has already been firmly established and 1x5 in the peak is already quite routine. 1x6 or 1x7 should be an off peak formation with no coupling of sets required.

As for 'exceptional circumstances' I think most people not least the RMT know this means Train Managers become a nice to have on all routes as well as Oxford.
 
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