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The decline of P&O Ferries

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BayPaul

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P&O announced last week that they were closing Hull-Zeebrugge, and selling the Pride of York and Bruges, as well as the Pride of Burgandy and European Seaway from Dover.
https://ferryshippingnews.com/po-ferries-says-goodbye-to-a-route-and-four-ships/
P&O Ferries informed its staff that the Hull – Zeebrugge route is to close permanently. PRIDE OF BRUGES and PRIDE OF YORK are to be disposed of.
The same announcement said that PRIDE OF BURGUNDY and EUROPEAN SEAWAY will not be returning to service.
The four ships have been put on the market.

In the context of Covid, this is hardly surprising news, but it does seem that over the years P&O's default answer to anything has been to close routes and shrink their operation. Obviously the market for ferry travel has changed a lot over the years, with the explosion of low-cost airlines in particular, but it is notable that other operators have been much more positive in their responses, and seem to be doing much better. It feels to me that the last big positive action that P&O took was the introduction of the superfreighters to Zeebrugge, the introduction of the 5-ship chunnel beating Dover-Calais service, and the introduction of the Pride of Bilbao back in 1992/3. Since then, all of their decisions have been either negative, neutral, or just a bit better than like-for-like.
  • Introduction of the expensive and unsuitable Olau twins to Le Havre when Brittany Ferries were investing in purpose-built tonnage
  • Replacement of multi-purpose ships with chartered fast ferries at Portsmouth & Larne
  • Closure of Portsmouth, which Brittany Ferries have continued to expand - Spain in particular seems to have exploded over recent years
  • Closure of the P&O Ferrymasters route to Gothenburg, which seems to be ever-expanding with DFDS
  • Sale of much of the ex Pandoro operation to Stena, since when they have consolidated it into the rapidly expanding Birkenhead-Belfast route
  • Replacing 4 ships on Hull-Rotterdam with Pride of Hull & Rotterdam. Whilst this was probably neutral, it was notable that other operators were expanding capacity out of the humber at the time, and they hugely reduced their damgerous cargo capacity
  • Sale of the Felixstowe routes to Stena - freight traffic on this route seems to be constantly increasing
  • Liverpool-Dublin becoming a passenger route, but using ro-ro ferries with minimal conversion work
  • Introduction of the Causeway class ropaxes at Larne was certainly a positive compared to the previous vessels, but their low passenger capacity is notable
  • P&O Stena merger was probably essential, but effectively all of the additional Stena capacity was sold off, allowing other operators to increase their market share
  • Closure of the Zeebrugge route and Darwin conversion was probably a sensible move, but again was an overall reduction in capacity at a time when DFDS were introducing large new ships to Dunkirk
  • Introduction of the Spirits was certainly positive, but was just a like-for-like replacement of the Dover and Calais with a bit of a capacity increase
  • Earlier this year, there were certainly issues over unpaid bills on the Liverpool-Dublin route
  • I'm not surprised that the Hull-Zeebrugge route has closed, and even without COVID it was probably at risk, but the York and Bruges should have years left in them, and I would have thought that a ropax replacement wouldn't have been unreasonable
  • Reducing to 4 ships at Dover is interesting at a time when DFDS are increasing capacity
In all this period, apart from a couple of freight-only ventures at Tilbury, they don't seem to have tried anything new, or expanded at all. In comparison, Stena took the very shaky old Sealink operation, and whilst they have closed routes and sold ships, and made a very expensive mistake with the HSS, there is no doubt that overall it has expanded massively, and innovated constantly. Most other operators also have taken as many positive steps as negative, with impressive new ferries, new routes and new concepts. Why have P&O never been able to build on their great legacy?
 
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superjohn

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There are lots of factors at play but it has to be said that the takeover of the ferry division of P&O by Dubai Ports World was not a good thing for the company. Their main competitors in the UK all seem to have much more positive long term outlooks. Brittany Ferries are essentially owned by the French public sector in various forms while DFDS and Stena are giants in the ferry business. All are investing in new vessels whereas P&O seem to close routes whenever the ships get too old and require replacement.

This short term profit chasing showed in the last years of the Bilbao route. P&O went after the ‘mini cruise’ market in a big way with very low fares and the hope of high on board spending. This didn’t work out and they couldn’t justify keeping the ageing ship in service or replacing it. Brittany Ferries concentrate more on the Spanish holiday maker market with much higher fares and they are thriving.

That said, I think the DFDS Newcastle to Amsterdam route will be the next to go.
 

bangor-toad

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I have to generally agree with you.
I can only comment on the Irish Sea routes but the P&O offering feels tired and worn compared to Stena, SeaTruck or Irish Ferries. It does seem that the other companies are innovating and using new ferries but P&O haven't really changed.

However, I see that they are planning something radical for Dover-Calais. A double bow ferry that doesn't need to turn around:

an-artist-impression-of-one-of-po-ferries-new-build-double-ended-ferries-in-operation.jpg


Have a read of an article about it here:
Link

Of course, with all of the challenges with Covid-19 the future plans may be changing but it currently looks to be a bold new idea from P&O.
Cheers,
Mr Toad
 

BayPaul

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I have to generally agree with you.
I can only comment on the Irish Sea routes but the P&O offering feels tired and worn compared to Stena, SeaTruck or Irish Ferries. It does seem that the other companies are innovating and using new ferries but P&O haven't really changed.

However, I see that they are planning something radical for Dover-Calais. A double bow ferry that doesn't need to turn around:

an-artist-impression-of-one-of-po-ferries-new-build-double-ended-ferries-in-operation.jpg


Have a read of an article about it here:
Link

Of course, with all of the challenges with Covid-19 the future plans may be changing but it currently looks to be a bold new idea from P&O.
Cheers,
Mr Toad
I can't deny those ferries look pretty good, and they are pretty radical for Dover - Calais (though in fact they have always been pretty radical at Dover, from the Free Enterprise, to the Spirit of FE, to the Dover and Calais and the Spirits - all have been pretty big steps forward from anything seen on the route before). Even so, they are still effectively like-for-like replacements, and as others have mentionned, ferries like this are pretty common in sheltered waters, though I don't know of any double enders operating anywhere quite as exposed as the English Channel.

- by the time they enter service P&O ferries will be down to just 10 passenger ferries, including the Norbank and Norbay which barely count.

There are lots of factors at play but it has to be said that the takeover of the ferry division of P&O by Dubai Ports World was not a good thing for the company. Their main competitors in the UK all seem to have much more positive long term outlooks. Brittany Ferries are essentially owned by the French public sector in various forms while DFDS and Stena are giants in the ferry business. All are investing in new vessels whereas P&O seem to close routes whenever the ships get too old and require replacement.

This short term profit chasing showed in the last years of the Bilbao route. P&O went after the ‘mini cruise’ market in a big way with very low fares and the hope of high on board spending. This didn’t work out and they couldn’t justify keeping the ageing ship in service or replacing it. Brittany Ferries concentrate more on the Spanish holiday maker market with much higher fares and they are thriving.

That said, I think the DFDS Newcastle to Amsterdam route will be the next to go.
I agree with you for the Dubai ports takeover - they wanted the ports business, and the ferry company has been a sideline ever since, though it was in decline even before that.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Newcastle - Amsterdam go, but if so it would be entirely COVID related - at the start of the year DFDS agreed a deal to buy two very suitable ships from Moby to replace the current pair, which would have secured the routes future, so they clearly see the potential in it. Sadly Moby's creditors blocked the sale.
 

Journeyman

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I'd be very sad to see Newcastle to Amsterdam go. Living in Edinburgh, it's very handy for me. I've only used it once so far, but I'd happily use it again as soon as travelling gets easier.
 

Tetchytyke

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That said, I think the DFDS Newcastle to Amsterdam route will be the next to go.

I don't, because of freight as much as anything. The leisure market may shrink further (though the booze cruises are always well filled) but there's a lot of freight on that route, and no ready alternative route to use. And these days it is freight which determines success.

There are no other ferries from the north east to the continent and it is a long drive to somewhere like Immingham. Nothing would actually surprise me with Covid, but I can't see the Newcastle-Amsterdam going anywhere.

I'm not surprised Hull-Zeebrugge has gone, there's not enough leisure travel to justify routes to both Zeebrugge and Rotterdam, which are barely 100 miles from each other. And with DFDS down the road at Immingham, there's probably not the lane metres of freight to justify both routes either.
 
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BayPaul

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I don't, because of freight as much as anything. The leisure market may shrink further (though the booze cruises are always well filled) but there's a lot of freight on that route, and no ready alternative route to use. And these days it is freight which determines success.
P&O's Teesport - Rotterdam route is pretty much a direct competitor to the Newcastle - Amsterdam route for freight. I think that Newcastle - Amsterdam will probably survive, as it seems to have its own niche, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it went
 

WestCoast

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Sad to see the Pride of York & Bruges go, I always enjoyed sailing on those as a kid in the 90s as the Norsea and Norsun on Hull - Rotterdam before the newer ferries took over.
 

Swanny200

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I travelled on European Seaway last year from Cairnryan to Larne, it didn't look in the best of nick even after a refit, noticed it stuck in Tilbury just now so wonder where it will end up next
 

BayPaul

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I travelled on European Seaway last year from Cairnryan to Larne, it didn't look in the best of nick even after a refit, noticed it stuck in Tilbury just now so wonder where it will end up next
It's an interesting question - Seaway and Burgundy seem a bit young to go for razor blades, but it would take a lot of work to make them suitable for another route (fitting with ramps to replace the unique Dover arrangements, and probably internal ramps too), and I'm not really sure what that route might be.

Bruges and York should have more chance of a future life, good freight capacity and a sensible overnight pax capacity, should work well in the Med.
 

43055

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I travelled on European Seaway last year from Cairnryan to Larne, it didn't look in the best of nick even after a refit, noticed it stuck in Tilbury just now so wonder where it will end up next
That's the Dover freight ferry isn't it. I would imagine it might come back soon after the government has awarded a ferry contract to some companies with ferries.
 

BayPaul

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That's the Dover freight ferry isn't it. I would imagine it might come back soon after the government has awarded a ferry contract to some companies with ferries.
I believe the contract is for ferries to Ports other than Dover. Adding more ferries to Dover won't help if traffic backed up at customs.
 

Swanny200

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That's the Dover freight ferry isn't it. I would imagine it might come back soon after the government has awarded a ferry contract to some companies with ferries.

Yes, they use it as a replacement when one of the other regular vessels on the Cairnryan to Larne route is away for refit, however they don't tell you that at Cairnryan until you actually drive onto the thing and go up to a very grubby rest area, was night and day compared to the return which was done on the Causeway, the staff were nice enough but when you are told over the tannoy that the ship you are on had been recently refitted itself, you wouldn't think so by the state of it.
 

jopsuk

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Is this the end of all north sea passenger services to Belgium?

As for Dover-Calais new vessels, whilst double bow ferries may be nothing new I don't know of any on the scale of these (at 230m, they'll be longer than the Spirit class ships and assuming that they have a consummate increase in capacity, they'll be the biggest ships ever used on the Dover Straits (as the Spirit class are currently) and not normally on such long/exposed routes
 

BayPaul

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Is this the end of all north sea passenger services to Belgium?

As for Dover-Calais new vessels, whilst double bow ferries may be nothing new I don't know of any on the scale of these (at 230m, they'll be longer than the Spirit class ships and assuming that they have a consummate increase in capacity, they'll be the biggest ships ever used on the Dover Straits (as the Spirit class are currently) and not normally on such long/exposed routes
It is the end of passenger services to Belgium for now, and perhaps forever, though I'm sure there will be plenty of Ramsgate-Oostende services proposed (quite possibly using the Pride of Burgandy, which would be reasonably suitable for the route!), so hopefully one will suceed eventually! I know that RMT's Dover-Oostende route began in 1846, and I assume that there were some kind of packet boat services before that, so it is the end of a very long piece of history.

I think that the Coastal Rennaisance class of double-enders in British Columbia are the current largest double ended ferries, but they are much smaller at 160m, and only have a single freight deck, plus a car deck above, so the P&O ones have an entire extra freight deck.
 

jopsuk

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It is the end of passenger services to Belgium for now, and perhaps forever, though I'm sure there will be plenty of Ramsgate-Oostende services proposed (quite possibly using the Pride of Burgandy, which would be reasonably suitable for the route!), so hopefully one will succeed eventually! I know that RMT's Dover-Oostende route began in 1846, and I assume that there were some kind of packet boat services before that, so it is the end of a very long piece of history.
Much will depend on what state of repair facilities are kept in. Zeebrugge is at least still a fairly important freight ferry port, with multiple single deck linkspans, so setting up a basic service should be easy- whether the current high level side loading ramp for cars will remain is debatable. And I believe there were doubts about the serviceability of the Ramsgate facilities during the Grayling ferry fiasco.
I think that the Coastal Rennaisance class of double-enders in British Columbia are the current largest double ended ferries, but they are much smaller at 160m, and only have a single freight deck, plus a car deck above, so the P&O ones have an entire extra freight deck.
Yes, the P&O ones will/would have two full freight decks and a high headroom (for vans, cars with roof racks etc) car deck as far as I can tell, similar to the Spirit class (and accessible in the same way from the upper linkspan via ramps at each quarter
 

Cloud Strife

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Then there was the loss of the Shetland/Orkney to Aberdeen service.

That was badly needed. P&O weren't really interested in the service at all, as it was way outside their usual operating area. The terminals were old and tired by the time they lost the contract, and they had a poor reputation in general. The boats were hopelessly outdated by the end as well.

Why have P&O never been able to build on their great legacy?

I think it's simply as a result of their ownership. Stena and others have had a laser focus on shipping, whereas P&O's passenger operations always seemed to be somewhat of an afterthought. They abandoned the Western Channel services to Brittany Ferries, and they didn't seem to predict that the future of ferry transport lay with large freight ships which could carry some passengers too. Then they kept high speed services around after other operators had abandoned them, such as on the Irish Sea.

P&O also seemed to be mostly interested in the prestige Dover-Calais route, and even those new boats suggest that nothing has changed. The idea of having drive-through ferries is great, but given the inevitable delays on either end after the end of the year, there's little to no advantage to having them.

I think there's also a huge issue with how they manage routes in general. Something like Liverpool-Dublin should be operated like how Stena operate Harwich-Hoek with large freight vessels that have smaller, but very high quality passenger areas and a lot of cabins at a very affordable price. Yet the stuff they're putting on that route is anything but high quality, so it does nothing to persuade people to use it as opposed to the Holyhead crossing.
 

43055

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I believe the contract is for ferries to Ports other than Dover. Adding more ferries to Dover won't help if traffic backed up at customs.
Ah ok but the only other route I can think of is Hull - Rotterdam. Unless they have some freight routes?

Yes, they use it as a replacement when one of the other regular vessels on the Cairnryan to Larne route is away for refit, however they don't tell you that at Cairnryan until you actually drive onto the thing and go up to a very grubby rest area, was night and day compared to the return which was done on the Causeway, the staff were nice enough but when you are told over the tannoy that the ship you are on had been recently refitted itself, you wouldn't think so by the state of it.
I suppose it's better than no ferry at all but yeah it doesn't sound like it is in the best of condition.
 

BayPaul

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Ah ok but the only other route I can think of is Hull - Rotterdam. Unless they have some freight routes?
They run a freight route out of Tilbury to Zeebrugge, which I think is the one getting the subsidy.

I think there's also a huge issue with how they manage routes in general. Something like Liverpool-Dublin should be operated like how Stena operate Harwich-Hoek with large freight vessels that have smaller, but very high quality passenger areas and a lot of cabins at a very affordable price. Yet the stuff they're putting on that route is anything but high quality, so it does nothing to persuade people to use it as opposed to the Holyhead crossing.
Totally. Stena have also done the same for Birkenhead - Belfast, first by refitting their Visentinis on the route, and now by introducing the eflexers as well. I think that Liverpool - Dublin could be a decent route worked in this way, saving the long drive up to Holyhead with a comfy overnight crossing, and even the possibility of the minicruise market in both directions, but P&O just never seem to invest.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Pride of Burgundy (travelled both ways on it a few years back) is an okay ship but my experience on the Spirit of France (travelled to Calais on it) was much nicer. The Pride of Canterbury (travelled back to Dover), however, was dreadful, cramped, choppy and bumpy. Oh and from memory it played a horrible clanging announcement tone which made me jump. Shame that isn’t being scrapped instead. Haven’t been on the others.
 

backontrack

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That was badly needed. P&O weren't really interested in the service at all, as it was way outside their usual operating area. The terminals were old and tired by the time they lost the contract, and they had a poor reputation in general. The boats were hopelessly outdated by the end as well.

The St Sunniva III (Aberdeen-Stromness-Lerwick) was particularly beleagured prior to the end of the contract. Plenty of technical issues: engine failure, sustained turbocharger problems, a cracked sewage pipe...all of which led to dry docking and withdrawals from service. She was scrapped in 2005 in India after the outbreak of the Iraq War consumed her new home.
 

Swanny200

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Look at the fleet ages, the newest P&O ship is 8 years old, I know they are getting new ships for the Dover-Calais route due in 2 or 3 years but all but 1 of the ships is over 10 years old, some on the fleet are nearing their 30th birthday and are showing it no matter how they refit it. Irish Ferries oldest ship out of 5 ships is 23 years old, 3 out of the other 5 are between 2 and 6 years old, Stena had some really old ships but when they have been refitted, they look to have had a decent amount of money spent. P&O don't seem to bother, they are more interested in their freight trade than their passenger trade.
 

BayPaul

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Look at the fleet ages, the newest P&O ship is 8 years old, I know they are getting new ships for the Dover-Calais route due in 2 or 3 years but all but 1 of the ships is over 10 years old, some on the fleet are nearing their 30th birthday and are showing it no matter how they refit it. Irish Ferries oldest ship out of 5 ships is 23 years old, 3 out of the other 5 are between 2 and 6 years old, Stena had some really old ships but when they have been refitted, they look to have had a decent amount of money spent. P&O don't seem to bother, they are more interested in their freight trade than their passenger trade.
They don't even seem to be that interested in freight. Stena and Irish Ferries both have new ships that are massive freight carriers, and Stena are doing very well on the freight routes that they bought out from P&O a few years ago. Even the Pride of Hull and Rotterdam are badly designed for freight, with poorly positioned lines of pillars on the vehicle deck, and only a very small area of space for hazardous goods.
 

Swanny200

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The thing is that most of the ships that I have been on, they are huge freight carriers, but at least they still have nice areas for passengers, the freight drivers area on a lot of the other ferries that I have had a look at are really nicely fitted and just as good as if you were a car or foot passenger in your own area. P&O seem to think that if you drive a lorry, you must be constantly grubby, dressed like a slob, have your backside hanging out all the time and you would want your facilities to match
 

BayPaul

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The thing is that most of the ships that I have been on, they are huge freight carriers, but at least they still have nice areas for passengers, the freight drivers area on a lot of the other ferries that I have had a look at are really nicely fitted and just as good as if you were a car or foot passenger in your own area. P&O seem to think that if you drive a lorry, you must be constantly grubby, dressed like a slob, have your backside hanging out all the time and you would want your facilities to match
Totally, though to be fair the Spirit class at Dover do look very good for freight drivers.
 

Swanny200

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I haven't been on the spirit class and I must admit, the causeway class freight section albeit closed off to general public did look a class above what the seaway did when I went on them both last year but compared to some of the other ships I have been on, it still pales in comparison to the rest of the ship
 
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