The demise of bus stop timetables

[S&CLER]

Do they still exist? Maybe I'm not looking carefully enough but I haven't seen one for years. I didn't think they were much use anyway. They only gave you times for a limited number of destinations.

I saw one at Carnforth yesterday.

 

[miklcct]

Most bus stops for Yellow Buses in Bournemouth haven't been updated with the September network changes including the express route 3x starting from this week, except at the new temporary stops at Lansdowne which were only set up after the network change.

 

[Deerfold]

It was not only the frequency of changes but the sheer quantity (almost every route of every operator) being changed at once, and then multiple times thereafter, completely swamped the staff member in my county, and that of the local operators, both of whom are only just resourced for the 'normal' level of work. Couple that with the closure of office buildings making simple printing of the displays an issue. Electronic displays, from multiple suppliers, are still often hampered by legacy back office systems, requiring uploading and often manipulation of data to get them to work. Some smaller operators are unable to provide the information electronically at all, not necessarily having the expertise available. All of this requires more staff time, sometimes this is shared with the same staff member(s) doing the roadside displays.

That makes perfect sense.

However what happened in West Yorkshire was last spring and summer when timetables were changing frequently at short notice, roadside timetables were unchanged.

Our timetables were removed the weekend that my buses returned to pre-Covid times at the end of August. They've changed infrequently since then, but not been replaced.

 

[Andyh82]

That makes perfect sense.

However what happened in West Yorkshire was last spring and summer when timetables were changing frequently at short notice, roadside timetables were unchanged.

Our timetables were removed the weekend that my buses returned to pre-Covid times at the end of August. They've changed infrequently since then, but not been replaced.

There is a big benefit to hindsight there.

I’m not sure back at the start of the first lockdown anyone had any idea what was going to happen with timetables, and whether it was worth blanking them out, or leaving them as they’ll be back to normal soon, or indeed if the staff were available to do such a task, or even if it was worthwhile or technically possible.

 

[krus_aragon]

There is a big benefit on hindsight there

I’m not sure back at the start of the first lockdown anyone had any idea what was going to happen with timetables, and whether it was worth blanking them out, or leaving them as they’ll be back to normal soon, or indeed if the staff were available to do such a task, or even if it was worthwhile or technically possible.

Conwy council had replaced roadside timetables with an explanatory notice by the summer of 2020, at the very latest. I suspect it was a fair while sooner (but I'm working from memory here).

 

[johncrossley]

A lot of the problem outside London is that many bus companies kept tinkering with the timetables. TfL was largely back to normal service by last summer (albeit with school duplicates/extras). Some nearby countries seemed to switch to Saturday or Sunday service for a while, which meant that you could simply announce that instead of creating brand new timetables from scratch but even then they seemed to be back to regular times before long. Obviously when some bus times are coordinated, either with other bus times or train times, then there is less temptation to keep messing with the timetables. Frequent timetable changes is often given as a reason for the decline in bus usage outside London since 1986.

 

[RT4038]

A lot of the problem outside London is that many bus companies kept tinkering with the timetables. TfL was largely back to normal service by last summer (albeit with school duplicates/extras). Some nearby countries seemed to switch to Saturday or Sunday service for a while, which meant that you could simply announce that instead of creating brand new timetables from scratch but even then they seemed to be back to regular times before long. Obviously when some bus times are coordinated, either with other bus times or train times, then there is less temptation to keep messing with the timetables. Frequent timetable changes is often given as a reason for the decline in bus usage outside London since 1986.

When the taxpayer is taking the risk on revenue then it is easy to run timetables no longer in tune with market conditions. When the taxpayer is not then the temptation to change to improve the financial position is quite compelling.

 

[johncrossley]

When the taxpayer is taking the risk on revenue then it is easy to run timetables no longer in tune with market conditions. When the taxpayer is not then the temptation to change to improve the financial position is quite compelling.

But operators have enjoyed the Covid-19 support grant, meaning that operators can maintain service levels without fear of losing money.

 

[43055]

Conwy council had replaced roadside timetables with an explanatory notice by the summer of 2020, at the very latest. I suspect it was a fair while sooner (but I'm working from memory here).

Those notices are still in place. Although Llandudno Junction Tesco stop seemed to have times.

 

[TUC]

In West Yorkshire Metro's case, our local bus stop doesn't even have contact information or links on it. They really aren't making it easy.
(image shows photograph of West Yorkshire Metro bus stop)

 

[AndrewE]

I was in Edinburgh a week ago and asked about the availability of a printed network map, to be told that Covid changes were so great that they weren't doing one currently. Which ignored the facts that a) it is still available online (but rather difficult to read if you print it yourself) and b) I don't think the network/routes have changed anyway!
The on-line times for all the routes I used seemed to tally with the old pre-covid timetables in the house anyway!

 

[Deerfold]

There is a big benefit to hindsight there.

I’m not sure back at the start of the first lockdown anyone had any idea what was going to happen with timetables, and whether it was worth blanking them out, or leaving them as they’ll be back to normal soon, or indeed if the staff were available to do such a task, or even if it was worthwhile or technically possible.

They already knew the timetables were returning to normal. They've then changed as normal for another year and have not returned.

When the timetables were changing frequently for 5 months they didn't remove them.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But operators have enjoyed the Covid-19 support grant, meaning that operators can maintain service levels without fear of losing money.

The issue is that many of the PTEs and councils stopped doing it because of the speed of changes and that predates the introduction of the support scheme, given that it wasn't actually introduced until August 2020 albeit with some backdating. Whilst many services did return to the pre Covid levels, the problem was that you many more changes in terms of social distancing, schools requirements and then many other challenges such as staff isolating.

ps you may have forgotten that pre-1986, in the halcyon days of relative stability to route networks etc, passenger figures fell year on year and that London's passenger figures have been falling since 2014

 

[Deerfold]

In West Yorkshire Metro's case, our local bus stop doesn't even have contact information or links on it. They really aren't making it easy.
(image shows photograph of West Yorkshire Metro bus stop)

The ones at my local stops are just visible in the right light. The vital information did fade very quickly.

 

[Andyh82]

They already knew the timetables were returning to normal. They've then changed as normal for another year and have not returned.

When the timetables were changing frequently for 5 months they didn't remove them.

My services have certainly not been the same for 12 months, I think First have tweaked the timings or the frequencies of the running times a dozen times since the start of the first lockdown, and many of those seem to have been with a few days notice. Plus my stop is also served by Arriva, and they’ve changed a few times as well, and often on different dates.

 

[johncrossley]

ps you may have forgotten that pre-1986, in the halcyon days of relative stability to route networks etc, passenger figures fell year on year and that London's passenger figures have been falling since 2014

Compare the latest London bus passengers figures against 2000, 1990 or 1980. Do the same outside London.



I created this graph from

https://assets.publishing.service.g...loads/attachment_data/file/929560/bus0103.ods
You can see the fall in bus usage in the PTE areas was halted in the early 80s and passenger numbers stabilised, but after 1986 there was a dramatic fall.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Compare the latest London bus passengers figures against 2000, 1990 or 1980. Do the same outside London.

View attachment 102496

I created this graph from

https://assets.publishing.service.g...loads/attachment_data/file/929560/bus0103.ods
You can see the fall in bus usage in the PTE areas was halted in the early 80s and passenger numbers stabilised, but after 1986 there was a dramatic fall.

You don't think the end of massively subsidised fares in places like South Yorkshire might have had an effect? Even your graph shows that in the halcyon days of stability, London dropped by a third. However, this is really drifting off topic.

 

[Andyh82]

When the timetables were changing frequently for 5 months they didn't remove them.

You forget how strictly the first lockdown was observed. Everything was frozen in time and not changed until the Summer not just bus timetables. A poster saying ‘Book now for Easter Sunday’ outside the local pub gradually getting more and more faded. Remember so many jobs that could have continued didn’t continue during those weeks. Stuff was pared right back.

 

[RT4038]

But operators have enjoyed the Covid-19 support grant, meaning that operators can maintain service levels without fear of losing money.

I was referring to your comment 'Frequent timetable changes is often given as a reason for the decline in bus usage outside London since 1986'.
During the Covid period bus operators couldn't maintain service levels due to staff shielding, sickness, bus cleaning regimes etc.

 

[Llandudno]

Those notices are still in place. Although Llandudno Junction Tesco stop seemed to have times.

Might be a tad more useful if Conwy County Council had updated the timetable cases in and around Llandudno Junction station area rather than at a supermarket!

 

[Typhoon]

Local timetables changed two weeks ago. I can't speak for everywhere but certain some local bus stops (and these are not the main stops) have updated paper timetables in the cases at stops. I don't think it was immediate, but two weeks is not bad. Stagecoach East Kent.

(Not perfect, they took over a route from an independent at the start of August. The independent is still showing as operating the route - the times haven't changed so maybe not a priority.)

 

[Deerfold]

My services have certainly not been the same for 12 months, I think First have tweaked the timings or the frequencies of the running times a dozen times since the start of the first lockdown, and many of those seem to have been with a few days notice. Plus my stop is also served by Arriva, and they’ve changed a few times as well, and often on different dates.

That may be true of your services, but it's not true of the majority in the Keighley area. Oddly, areas of Leeds that still see frequent changes do seem to now have their timetables back.

You forget how strictly the first lockdown was observed. Everything was frozen in time and not changed until the Summer not just bus timetables. A poster saying ‘Book now for Easter Sunday’ outside the local pub gradually getting more and more faded. Remember so many jobs that could have continued didn’t continue during those weeks. Stuff was pared right back.

I didn't forget that. It just seemed odd to remove the timetables just as things were settling down when, as you say, it hadn't been a priority when they were changing frequently. And they've now largely stayed settled down for a year.

 

[43055]

Might be a tad more useful if Conwy County Council had updated the timetable cases in and around Llandudno Junction station area rather than at a supermarket!

Anywhere would be useful. Especially as the 5/X5 was changed recently and I can't find any PDF of the timetable on the arriva website!

 

[James H]

Most bus stops for Yellow Buses in Bournemouth haven't been updated with the September network changes including the express route 3x starting from this week, except at the new temporary stops at Lansdowne which were only set up after the network change.

On the Yellow Buses website, when they announced the service changes they included an apology that bus stop timetables might not be changed as quickly as usual this time, because the timetable change coincided with the Bournemouth Air Festival.

 

[TUC]

On the Yellow Buses website, when they announced the service changes they included an apology that bus stop timetables might not be changed as quickly as usual this time, because the timetable change coincided with the Bournemouth Air Festival.

In what way is that a reason for being late changing the timetables?

 

[RT4038]

In what way is that a reason for being late changing the timetables?

Presumably the staff member who would normally change the timetables was otherwise engaged on Air Festival duties in some way or another?

 

[James H]

In what way is that a reason for being late changing the timetables?

Road closures, heavy traffic, staff resources redeployed on special services etc.

 

[Llandudno]

Anywhere would be useful. Especially as the 5/X5 was changed recently and I can't find any PDF of the timetable on the arriva website!

Yes, the Arriva website, the gift that keeps on giving…!

The new 5/5D/X5 timetables can ge found on the Gwynedd County Council website.

I hope you don’t need to travel on a Sunday evening, as all the buses have been withdrawn!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, the Arriva website, the gift that keeps on giving…!

The new 5/5D/X5 timetables can ge found on the Gwynedd County Council website.

I hope you don’t need to travel on a Sunday evening, as all the buses have been withdrawn!

Have Arriva simply withdrawn the Sunday evening buses? Oh dear....

 

[Typhoon]

Anywhere would be useful. Especially as the 5/X5 was changed recently and I can't find any PDF of the timetable on the arriva website!

5-5C-5D-X5-Llandudno-to-Caernarfon-from-12-Sep-2021.pdf (from the Arriva website, showing as 5/5C/5D/X5 Llandudno to Caernarfon - link did not work for me so have attached below)

(Probably posted yesterday, after all you wouldn't want to plan a journey, would you?)

Maybe someone from Arriva saw your post? If they are lurking today, you might want to chat with Gwynedd and sort the following out:

The new 5/5D/X5 timetables can ge found on the Gwynedd County Council website.

Unfortunately, they are not the same. Arriva shows last departures on a Sunday on route 5 as : 1959, 2035, 2120, 2220
Gwynedd shows the 1959 as the last.
Gwynedd's timetable dated 5/09. Arriva's dated 12/09!

This is the worst of all worlds. I wonder why people don't use public transport?