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The EU could insist on much more stringent control for travel between EU and GB

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daodao

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/eurostar-possible-expansion.199790/

Once the Brexit transition period ends on 31/12/20, the EU will presumably insist on much more stringent control for travel between the EU and the UK, which will be a "3rd country", so all stations served by Eurostar trains will require appropriate infrastructure and manned security barriers.

This is likely to have a major impact on travel via the Channel Tunnel, and will effectively quash any significant potential expansion of Eurostar destinations that might have occurred if Brexit hadn't happened.

I expect that security and document control arrangements will need to be similar to those required for travel across the eastern frontier of the EU into Belarus and Russia, albeit presumably with some visa-waiver arrangements.

The EU will presumably also insist on strict controls for travel across the Irish Sea, including between Great Britain and the 6 counties.
 
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AlbertBeale

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Once the Brexit transition period ends on 31/12/20, the EU will presumably insist on much more stringent control for travel between the EU and the UK, which will be a "3rd country", so all stations served by Eurostar trains will require appropriate infrastructure and manned security barriers. This is likely to have a major impact on travel via the Channel Tunnel, and will effectively quash any significant potential expansion of Eurostar destinations that might have occurred if Brexit hadn't happened. I expect that security and document control arrangements will need to be similar to those required for travel across the eastern frontier of the EU into Belarus and Russia, albeit presumably with some visa-waiver arrangements. The EU will presumably also insist on strict controls for travel across the Irish Sea, including between Great Britain and the 6 counties.

On the contrary - the EU is committed to not having checks between NI and the Republic; it's part of the Brexit agreement in fact.

The reason Brexit doesn't change things much in terms of checks is that the UK & Ireland, and their common travel area (actually including the CI and the IoM) are separate from Schengen anyway; this will continue. The Irish Republic, for political and geographical reasons, will not join Schengen and leave the UK outside.

For Eurostar journeys, there's no need for anything akin to the arrangements between the EU and Belarus etc. Though whether checks could go the other way, and be downgraded to on-the-move ones, is another matter - this is obviously less likely post-Brexit.
 

GingerSte

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I did wonder if Eurostar and the border control teams could set up temporary arrangements, for things like big sporting events or festivals. If they could, then Liege Guillemins would be a possibility for the Belgian Grand Prix. Liege is approx. 30 miles from Spa Francorchamps and on the line between Brussels and Cologne. I suspect a large number of coaches already connect Liege to the track on GP weekend. The F1 teams seem to be quite good at creating mobile venues for entertaining guests in the paddock. I'm sure they could rustle up a mobile customs suite in shipping containers or on the back of a number lorries!

If you're going to the expense of creating a temporary/mobile customs area, then I imagine that you would need enough events in a year to justify it. The Belgian and German GPs might be two. Le Mans might be another. The Champions League (association football for those not in the know!) usually creates a few possibilities each year. The 2021-22 Champions League final is in Munich. (The 19-20 final is in Istanbul and the 20-21 final in St Petersburg; both of which are admittedly a bit far!)
 

paddington

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Once the Brexit transition period ends on 31/12/20, the EU will presumably insist on much more stringent control for travel between the EU and the UK, which will be a "3rd country", so all stations served by Eurostar trains will require appropriate infrastructure and manned security barriers. This is likely to have a major impact on travel via the Channel Tunnel, and will effectively quash any significant potential expansion of Eurostar destinations that might have occurred if Brexit hadn't happened. I expect that security and document control arrangements will need to be similar to those required for travel across the eastern frontier of the EU into Belarus and Russia, albeit presumably with some visa-waiver arrangements. The EU will presumably also insist on strict controls for travel across the Irish Sea, including between Great Britain and the 6 counties.

The border for people between the Schengen area and the UK is effectively the same as the border between the UK and any other country, and the Schengen area and any other country. Lots of non-EU citizens and non-British citizens take the Eurostar and the entitlements for these people to be in France are entirely separate from the entitlements for those people to be in the UK. Therefore, there are secure fences and barriers blocking off physical access to the platforms and tracks which Eurostar uses, and nothing would need to change with regards to this.

Flights from Kenya and flights from Poland land into the same terminals in the UK and passengers arriving from these destinations are processed in exactly the same way. There may be some background intelligence carried out if someone of interest is on a specific flight, which perhaps is more likely to happen on flights from outside the EU, but otherwise passengers all go through the same experience regardless of their origin. For flights landing into Schengen airports, the same is true but with one difference - EU airports trust UK security screening so passengers arriving from the UK into Schengen can mingle with departing passengers without going through further security screening. But EU airports also trust USA security screening so the same applies to USA arrivals. At the end of the transition period, there will be changes to the documents required for British citizens to travel to the EU, but there will be no changes to the documents required for Americans or South Africans to travel to from the UK to the EU, so saying that "document control arrangements" would need to be upgraded is tantamount to saying that the UK currently does not enforce immigration control properly.

There will be no changes to the travel arrangements for people when crossing the Irish Sea.

What will change is the customs arrangements. Currently Eurostar arrivals basically go through the Blue customs channel that is found in UK airports, as all arrivals are from the EU. When the blue channel ceases to exist, then I guess there will now be red and green channels at Eurostar stations. Both the UK and mainland Europe countries currently take an intelligence-led approach to customs checks. At UK airports, passengers arriving from Spain mingle with passengers arriving from Thailand in the baggage reclaim area, and are then trusted to walk through the correct channel. At Schengen airports, passengers arriving from the UK mingle with passengers from Argentina at baggage reclaim and are also trusted to voluntarily make the appropriate customs declaration if necessary. There are random spot checks (which may be focussed on common arrival times for planes from Asia, etc.). The same approach can be taken for Eurostar arrivals.

Based on what is currently known, there would be new customs checks when crossing the Irish Sea.

With regards to security, if someone goes through security screening and that screening is thorough, then they are not a security risk regardless of their documentation or the goods they are transporting.

When ETIAS is introduced, the EU says there will be automatic kiosks at land borders for people who didn't know, or were unable, to apply for ETIAS online. These could be built at the UK Eurostar stations.


I did wonder if Eurostar and the border control teams could set up temporary arrangements, for things like big sporting events or festivals. If they could, then Liege Guillemins would be a possibility

Is there really much advantage to having temporary mobile border control at Liege when Brussels is not that far away, all trains have to pass through, and most likely any extra staff would just be taken from those stationed at Brussels?
 
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dosxuk

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There will be no changes to the travel arrangements for people when crossing the Irish Sea.

Although the discussion on what to do about EU citizens with the right to travel to Ireland then choosing to travel to NI / GB still seems to be in the air, with more denials that an issue exists than actual responses about how it will be dealt with.

I suppose we could go on gov.uk/brexit to find out, but apparently brexit is done so we have to go to gov.uk/transition and see that like the brexit site, it doesn't have any answers because the decisions haven't been agreed yet.
 

daodao

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On the contrary - the EU is committed to not having checks between NI and the Republic; it's part of the Brexit agreement in fact.
I did not refer to travel within Ireland, but across the Irish Sea, where as I understand matters, the EU wishes to see customs controls.
 

dgl

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I did not refer to travel within Ireland, but across the Irish Sea, where as I understand matters, the EU wishes to see customs controls.
And, of course, that is the big issue. You can't have a customs border between NI and EIRE for obvious reasons but having a customs border between two parts of the same kingdom (not sure what the correct word would be here) is just as silly. Bit like having a customs border with Wales, imagine living on the border and the roads snaking you in/out of Wales, imagine teh amount of time you would have to waste with customs!

and to think it was going to be oh so easy!
 

Howardh

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I did not refer to travel within Ireland, but across the Irish Sea, where as I understand matters, the EU wishes to see customs controls.
What about immigration controls? As it stands anyone from the EU can enter the republic legally, but if they would be banned from the UK we can't stop them crossing the border into the UK. So tighter controls elsewhere are pointless.
 

si404

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What about immigration controls? As it stands anyone from the EU can enter the republic legally, but if they would be banned from the UK we can't stop them crossing the border into the UK. So tighter controls elsewhere are pointless.
Most illegal immigrants enter the UK legally, and then stay longer than allowed. Nothing changes here.
 

Howardh

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Most illegal immigrants enter the UK legally, and then stay longer than allowed. Nothing changes here.
Nice deflection...if they have entered legally they are not illegal - until they overstay (which can't currently apply to EU's). Now what about those EU's that would care to harm us who, after Brexit, we would turn away at the borders - the very ones who will sneak in via the open border so we won't even know they're here - let alone if they've overstayed?
 

eastwestdivide

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Let us not forget that it is from the EU that the people smugglers send their human cargoes across the Channel to Britain in totally unsuitable craft.
Not entirely sure what you're driving at here.
To put it another way, the easiest point from which people smugglers could send people to the UK in small boats also happens to be part of the EU.
 

Meole

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They have little choice but to head here as casual work is not allowed in most EU countries, fortunately our economy encourages the use of undocumented tax free labour.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Not entirely sure what you're driving at here.
To put it another way, the easiest point from which people smugglers could send people to the UK in small boats also happens to be part of the EU.

Look at the title of this thread which talks of the EU imposing stringent control of travel between the EU and GB. So what "stringent controls" will the EU impose upon the people smugglers and will they increase the number of their patrol vessels in order to return those people attempting such hazardous voyages across the Channel back to the EU mainland.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Are you suggesting that we supply them with seaworthy boats?

The title of this thread relates to the EU imposing "stringent controls"and if that is the case, how do the EU feel about people smuggling across the Channel to Britain and what are they prepared to counter it?

Since the point of embarkation is the EU mainland, why on earth do you suggest Britain should supply craft to aid people smuggling into Britain?

The original thread uses the words "presumably" and "expect" as a personal view of expression of the OP.
 
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DaleCooper

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The title of this thread relates to the EU and if that is the case, how do the EU feel about people smuggling across the Channel to Britain.

Since the point of embarkation is the EU, why on earth do you suggest Britain should supply craft to aid people smuggling into Britain?
You really don't get it, do you?
 

Esker-pades

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Look at the title of this thread which talks of the EU imposing stringent control of travel between the EU and GB. So what "stringent controls" will the EU impose upon the people smugglers and will they increase the number of their patrol vessels in order to return those people attempting such hazardous voyages across the Channel back to the EU mainland.
What are you actually trying to argue here?

People holding a UK passport will, as a non-EU state, have to abide by EU rules that apply to non-EU states.

The idea that the existence of people smugglers in Lampeduza somehow makes any rules non-applicable is bats.
 

DaleCooper

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Do not labour under any such misapprehensions. It is that I see an ancilliary argument about a matter that is actually happening in real life.

Well maybe you need to start a thread on the subject of people smuggling. Incidentally you have misspelled "ancillary", just trying to be helpful.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The idea that the existence of people smugglers in Lampeduza somehow makes any rules non-applicable is bats.

Indeed so, but are not these unsuitable craft that land their human cargo on the south coast of Britain more likely to come from the other side of the Channel to Britain, rather than the far longer sea voyage from the Mediterranean Sea, the coasts of Spain and Portugal, the Bay of Biscay then the coastline of France.
 

Esker-pades

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Indeed so, but are not these unsuitable craft that land their human cargo on the south coast of Britain more likely to come from the other side of the Channel to Britain, rather than the far longer sea voyage from the Mediterranean Sea, the coasts of Spain and Portugal, the Bay of Biscay then the coastline of France.
The idea that the existence of people smugglers in Calais somehow makes the idea any less bats is also incorrect.
 

najaB

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Now what about those EU's that would care to harm us who, after Brexit, we would turn away at the borders
Well, even when we were in the EU we could turn anyone away if we could justify it. I always had my passport checked at EU airports and also when crossing the channel, and vv when returning to the UK. So I'm at a loss to the point you're trying to make.

Freedom of movement has never meant lack of control.
 

Meerkat

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Well, even when we were in the EU we could turn anyone away if we could justify it. I always had my passport checked at EU airports and also when crossing the channel, and vv when returning to the UK. So I'm at a loss to the point you're trying to make.

Freedom of movement has never meant lack of control.

if we could justify it within the EU laws, so not within our control
 

najaB

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if we could justify it within the EU laws, so not within our control
Entirely within our controls actually. EU freedom of movement just meant that we couldn't refuse someone entry based solely on their nationality. We could still refuse entry based on public health, security or non-discriminatory policy grounds.
 

Howardh

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Well, even when we were in the EU we could turn anyone away if we could justify it. I always had my passport checked at EU airports and also when crossing the channel, and vv when returning to the UK. So I'm at a loss to the point you're trying to make.

Freedom of movement has never meant lack of control.
But we can't turn them away if there's no border....ie they will be allowed perfectly legitimately into the Republic but they may not be allowed into the UK > but there's nothing to stop them??
 
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