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The EU could insist on much more stringent control for travel between EU and GB

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najaB

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We also should be tackling issues such as homelessness, drug/alcohol abuse, armed forces veterans, unemployment etc.

Help those in need aboard but don’t forget about those in need closer to home.
The HMG spends 0.7% of its budget on foreign aid. This compares to ~31% on social care, ~18% on health, ~13% on Education and ~6% on defence. It really is a drop in the bucket.
 

najaB

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Can’t you see the contradiction there?
Nope. Because as the rest of the sentence says "...refuse someone entry based solely on their nationality."

We could refuse entry to whomever we wanted on any grounds other than nationality. Which is only right, since if we could reject people based solely on nationality how is that any different to rejecting entry solely on their race, sexual orientation, gender identity or religion?

What a lot of people seem to fail to realise is that freedom of movement is based on the idea that all EU citizens have equal rights - making discrimination based on nationality just as unacceptable as any of the abovementioned protected characteristics.
 

bramling

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Nope. Because as the rest of the sentence says "...refuse someone entry based solely on their nationality."

We could refuse entry to whomever we wanted on any grounds other than nationality. Which is only right, since if we could reject people based solely on nationality how is that any different to rejecting entry solely on their race, sexual orientation, gender identity or religion?

What a lot of people seem to fail to realise is that freedom of movement is based on the idea that all EU citizens have equal rights - making discrimination based on nationality just as unacceptable as any of the abovementioned protected characteristics.

But not unacceptable to invent a wedge and discriminate between EU and non-EU people?

Having said that if a country is going to operate an immigration system then it’s pretty inevitable that choices will have to be made based on nationality, simply as a means of controlling numbers. For as long as there’s economic disparity in the world and finite landmass in countries then this will always be pretty much inevitable.
 

najaB

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Having said that if a country is going to operate an immigration system then it’s pretty inevitable that choices will have to be made based on nationality, simply as a means of controlling numbers.
Not, however, solely on nationality.

Or are you saying that all people from Country A should be allowed in and all people from Country B should be denied?
 
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mmh

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Four years on and some people are still conflating EU Freedom of Movement with border controls and immigration checks. It sometimes feels like they do so deliberately to either imply nothing will change, or will change in a negative way, as necessary to support their opinion on leaving the EU. Immigration checks have always happened between the UK and other EU countries, except between the UK and other Common Travel Area members who don't.

The hypothetical example of the EU citizen who wants to illegally enter and remain I'm the UK in future via Ireland is surely a myth. Their journey will be no different to today. The same passport check into Ireland, the same passport check less journey into the UK. The only difference is they won't have the automatic right to stay and work in the UK, because Freedom of Movement will have gone.

As someone else said, why would you go to the bother of going to Ireland first? You'd just legally enter the UK directly then illegally stay.
 

bramling

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Not, however, solely on nationality.

Or are you saying that all people from Country A should be allowed in and all people from Country B should be denied?

I’m saying that the decision should be made by the government, and if nationality is included in the decision-making process then fine if that’s what the electorate want.
 

najaB

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I’m saying that the decision should be made by the government, and if nationality is included in the decision-making process then fine if that’s what the electorate want.
Oh, nationality should absolutely form part of the decision-making process. But it should not ever be the sole determining factor.

And that is all that EU freedom of movement means: you can't deny entry to a citizen of a member state, require them to leave or base an employment decision solely on their nationality.

If they don't have the skills or experience for the job? They don't get the job.
They have serious criminal record? They don't get in.
They can't support themselves without state assistance? You can kick them out.
 
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najaB

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It sometimes feels like they do so deliberately to either imply nothing will change, or will change in a negative way, as necessary to support their opinion on leaving the EU.
For travel between the UK and Ireland, nothing will change. For travel between the UK and the EU we don't know yet. It all depends on the terms that are negotiated. At best, nothing will change, at worst we'll be treated the same as a lot of third-party countries and require a visa to enter the Schengen area.

The most likely (I hope) outcome will be visa-free travel much like today, but that depends entirely on what the UK demands of the EU.
 

Meole

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For travel between the UK and Ireland, nothing will change. For travel between the UK and the EU we don't know yet. It all depends on the terms that are negotiated. At best, nothing will change, at worst we'll be treated the same as a lot of third-party countries and require a visa to enter the Schengen area.

The most likely (I hope) outcome will be visa-free travel much like today, but that depends entirely on what the UK demands of the EU.
The current default position is that a UK citizien will be required to obtain an online visa waivure valid for 90 days at a cost of 10e, a small price for entry to the open borders and easy enough to complete, we already have similar when we journey to US etc.
 

Howardh

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What mechanism was (*) realistically available to change or update those laws?
.
All our MEP's and commissioners, the opt-outs and the vetos. Now they've gone, in order to trade and travel with the EU we will have to accept their rules and have no say.
 

Howardh

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The hypothetical example of the EU citizen who wants to illegally enter and remain I'm the UK in future via Ireland is surely a myth. Their journey will be no different to today. The same passport check into Ireland, the same passport check less journey into the UK. The only difference is they won't have the automatic right to stay and work in the UK, because Freedom of Movement will have gone.
As someone else said, why would you go to the bother of going to Ireland first? You'd just legally enter the UK directly then illegally stay.
Wrong.
The journey must be different from today - the UK is also establishing it's version of the ETIAS which will screen both visitors and workers from the EU and will require them to have full passports (rather than ID cards) and that electronic visa before entry. The reason for that is to prevent undesirables and those wishing to work illegally (ie without permit) from entering in the first place.
That was what you voted for - control of borders, right?
Today, of course, EU's simply require ID card and no screening to enter the UK.
However, anyone from the EU wishing to circumvent all that after 1st January and enter the UK without electronic visa/passport (indeed they may only have an ID card) can legally enter the Republic with just that ID card, they don't have to give a purpose for that visit, nor do they have to disclose anything (health/criminal record etc) and then once in the Republic, can catch the bus or train directly into the UK with no further screening.
At which point they become "invisible" as we simply don't know they are here.
 

Aictos

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For travel between the UK and Ireland, nothing will change. For travel between the UK and the EU we don't know yet. It all depends on the terms that are negotiated. At best, nothing will change, at worst we'll be treated the same as a lot of third-party countries and require a visa to enter the Schengen area.

The most likely (I hope) outcome will be visa-free travel much like today, but that depends entirely on what the UK demands of the EU.

You mention Ireland, so would we if going via Ireland to Italy for example still get passport checked when we enter Italy in much the same way it happens today?

As to visa free, that is the best outcome for all concerned and that is what all parties should be working to.
 

Pyreneenguy

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Well maybe you need to start a thread on the subject of people smuggling. Incidentally you have misspelled "ancillary", just trying to be helpful.

I would like to see the French border controls almost turning a blind-eye to illegal immigrants trying to get in the UK. It would take a huge load off the French , passing it on to the Brits.
After all, all these people want to enter the UK and not stay any length of time on the Continent. Just rewards for this almighty cock-up that is Brexit.
 

Howardh

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The current default position is that a UK citizien will be required to obtain an online visa waivure valid for 90 days at a cost of 10e, a small price for entry to the open borders and easy enough to complete, we already have similar when we journey to US etc.
The actual price isn't the issue, one problem is that it takes at least 72 hours to process, which prevents the "get up and go" traveller, again not really a problem as most plan ahead. One area I can see concern is if someone's son/daughter/relative is abroad on a school trip/holiday etc and has an accident, their parents may find it difficult to get to them within a few hours like they can today.
Whether there will be a way round that I don't know, it's probably not even been considered.
 

Howardh

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You mention Ireland, so would we if going via Ireland to Italy for example still get passport checked when we enter Italy in much the same way it happens today?
Yes.
There would be minimal check between the UK and Republic, but on that flight from (say) Dublin to Rome, at Rome you would go through the non-EU queue and provide evidence of your ETIAS/VISA and possibly further questioning, whilst the Irish would simply walk through the EU lane and waltz in to Italy with the minimum of fuss.
 

najaB

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You mention Ireland, so would we if going via Ireland to Italy for example still get passport checked when we enter Italy in much the same way it happens today?
Yes. Ireland is (for now at least) remaining in the CTA with the UK and not joining the Schengen area.
 

Howardh

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I would like to see the French border controls almost turning a blind-eye to illegal immigrants trying to get in the UK. It would take a huge load off the French , passing it on to the Brits.
After all, all these people want to enter the UK and not stay any length of time on the Continent. Just rewards for this almighty cock-up that is Brexit.
The question is, why should the French co-operate with us now we're a third country and the French could simply wave the refugees on their way?
 

Meole

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I would like to see the French border controls almost turning a blind-eye to illegal immigrants trying to get in the UK. It would take a huge load off the French , passing it on to the Brits.
After all, all these people want to enter the UK and not stay any length of time on the Continent. Just rewards for this almighty cock-up that is Brexit.
UK operates the juxtaposed border controls at the ports.
 

Howardh

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Yes. Ireland is (for now at least) remaining in the CTA with the UK and not joining the Schengen area.
Our "relationship" with the Republic, the CTA, by default actively prevents Ireland joining the Schengen zone. If Ireland wanted to join Schengen, then it would ave to abandon the CTA and place checks on us (and Visas/ETIAS's).
 

Meole

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Yes. Ireland is (for now at least) remaining in the CTA with the UK and not joining the Schengen area.
Ireland can never leave the CTA, free movement across all Ireland is constitutional, so never in Schengen.
 

mmh

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For travel between the UK and Ireland, nothing will change. For travel between the UK and the EU we don't know yet. It all depends on the terms that are negotiated. At best, nothing will change, at worst we'll be treated the same as a lot of third-party countries and require a visa to enter the Schengen area.

The most likely (I hope) outcome will be visa-free travel much like today, but that depends entirely on what the UK demands of the EU.
For travel between the UK and Ireland, nothing will change. For travel between the UK and the EU we don't know yet. It all depends on the terms that are negotiated. At best, nothing will change, at worst we'll be treated the same as a lot of third-party countries and require a visa to enter the Schengen area.

The most likely (I hope) outcome will be visa-free travel much like today, but that depends entirely on what the UK demands of the EU.

The invisible elephant in the room is the much proposed but still unimplemented ETIAS scheme for travel authorisation into the Schengen zone. If it ever does come about, it will inevitably have exceptions to cover the EU's own exceptions, notably Ireland. An exception for the UK would be logical, not least for geographic consideration of the British Isles.

As much as I'm a detractor, I genuinely cannot see a situation where the EU would actively prevent travel from the UK. Damage limitation on the EU's part or not, it would be silly and wildly unpopular with many member states, particularly but not only Spain. I don't think they are that silly.
 

Howardh

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Ireland can never leave the CTA, free movement across all Ireland is constitutional, so never in Schengen.
What would the situation be should (probably when) Ireland re-unite? Then they can have total freedom across the land and join Schengen and drop the CTA.

Q; if I bought a new UK 10-yr passport in 2022; and Ireland re-united in 24, as my passport would say "UK and NI" could I claim to be Irish (as in the NI part) for 8 years and keep my freedom of movement, or would it be compulsory for all those in the North to obtain an Irish passport?
 

mmh

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Our "relationship" with the Republic, the CTA, by default actively prevents Ireland joining the Schengen zone. If Ireland wanted to join Schengen, then it would ave to abandon the CTA and place checks on us (and Visas/ETIAS's).

This is more misinformation. Checks would be required on the Schengen border, but not necessarily visas. Countless external countries have visa-free travel to Schengen countries. ETIAS is a red herring, it is not a visa replacement.
 

Howardh

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The invisible elephant in the room is the much proposed but still unimplemented ETIAS scheme for travel authorisation into the Schengen zone. If it ever does come about, it will inevitably have exceptions to cover the EU's own exceptions, notably Ireland. An exception for the UK would be logical, not least for geographic consideration of the British Isles.

As much as I'm a detractor, I genuinely cannot see a situation where the EU would actively prevent travel from the UK. Damage limitation on the EU's part or not, it would be silly and wildly unpopular with many member states, particularly but not only Spain. I don't think they are that silly.
I agree with you on that - and vice-versa, it doesn't make sense to actively cut off a stream of income. But if both sides insist on further checks, I reckon it would affect the UK more than the EU based on
- we don't have the weather so will walk on nails to get Mediterranean sunshine/Alpine snow etc and a bit of a form won't get in the way (unless you're a criminal or have a severe medical condition)
- the UK doesn't have such a pull on Europeans, sure they like London, our countryside, Scotland etc but why would they spend £75+ on a new passport (when they can't use their ID card) whe there is plenty of other Euro cities/countryside to visit instead?
So the UK has to be careful what it wishes for.
But generally, the EU should treat the UK as the exception to the rule, at least for tourism.
 

Howardh

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This is more misinformation. Checks would be required on the Schengen border, but not necessarily visas. Countless external countries have visa-free travel to Schengen countries. ETIAS is a red herring, it is not a visa replacement.
The ETIAS will be 100% necessary for those not requiring visas. No way round that unless both sides can knock their heads together. It's not a "red herring" it's totally gonna happen.
 

Meole

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The invisible elephant in the room is the much proposed but still unimplemented ETIAS scheme for travel authorisation into the Schengen zone. If it ever does come about, it will inevitably have exceptions to cover the EU's own exceptions, notably Ireland. An exception for the UK would be logical, not least for geographic consideration of the British Isles.

As much as I'm a detractor, I genuinely cannot see a situation where the EU would actively prevent travel from the UK. Damage limitation on the EU's part or not, it would be silly and wildly unpopular with many member states, particularly but not only Spain. I don't think they are that silly.
An e application prior to travel.
I agree with you on that - and vice-versa, it doesn't make sense to actively cut off a stream of income. But if both sides insist on further checks, I reckon it would affect the UK more than the EU based on
- we don't have the weather so will walk on nails to get Mediterranean sunshine/Alpine snow etc and a bit of a form won't get in the way (unless you're a criminal or have a severe medical condition)
- the UK doesn't have such a pull on Europeans, sure they like London, our countryside, Scotland etc but why would they spend £75+ on a new passport (when they can't use their ID card) whe there is plenty of other Euro cities/countryside to visit instead?
So the UK has to be careful what it wishes for.
But generally, the EU should treat the UK as the exception to the rule, at least for tourism.
Completing an online waivure form on line then passing through an e gate at the arrival point is not going to deter any traveller.
 
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