The EU "Deal" - poll!

[Howardh]

Don't think I can attach a poll to an already running thread; so let's see what members think

 

[Ken H]

We cant remain in the EU - the European Union (withdrawal) Act 2018 does not allow it. So they would have to repeal that before 29th March next year AND get the other 27 members to agree. I expect they would demand we join Shengen and the EURO as the price for that. Repealing that act would go against the referendum so would be seen as appallingly undemocratic. Not sure that could get a majority in the commons.

Mays draft Withdrawal Agreement (WA) is dreadful. It keeps us in the core EU institutions of SM, CU, FOM and ECJ*, so not exactly 'leaving the EU'. But with no democratic input into those institutions as we are barred from attending summits, appointing commissioners or sending MEP's to the EU parliament
But worse than than that, it has no closure date so we are stuck in this limbo state in perpetuity until the EU agree to let us leave.
Which is why people like Rees Mogg talk of a Vassal State. I am struggling to think of another country that lets a foreign court have jurisdiction with in it.
You may like to consider what Martin Howe QC says about the deal from a legal perspective. Yes I know he doesn't claim to be impartial. But he seems to have a point - http://archive.is/RAQtf

*Single Market, Customs union, Freedom of Movement, European Court of Justice.

 

[Mvann]

Wells what other options would you put up?

Of course there is always the hope that the EU will implode by Sunday.

 

[EM2]

No, that's not what I said. The poll options reflect the Remain bias of the poster.

What other options would you select?

 

[bramling]

The Remaniac bias in those poll options is strong!

To be fair, it's a small sample, and we already knew that the general feeling on here is towards remain - as indeed it was before the referendum. Likewise myself and others did a straw-poll in a train crew depot a week or two before the referendum, I forget the exact result now but it was something like 90% leave. That combined with some time in the north-east in the lead-up to the referendum where pretty much *every* house had a "vote leave" sign in the window is the first intimation I had that leave might win!

In the aforementioned train crew depot I've not detected a softening towards leave in the time since - in fact I'd suggest it would probably be nearer to 100% leave based on recent conversations!

 

[Bletchleyite]

We cant remain in the EU - the European Union (withdrawal) Act 2018 does not allow it. So they would have to repeal that before 29th March next year AND get the other 27 members to agree.

The EU generally is not in favour of us leaving, so I would expect a decision to remain would be respected. The law would indeed need to be repealed, but that isn't exactly hard.

 

[mmh]

Well for a start the poll isn't answering a question. "Should we accept the deal, have no deal or remain" - those are answers, not a question. Those three choices aren't valid options to any question available. The proposed "deal" (god I hate that word!) will either be accepted or rejected. What happens then is a different set of options which follow.

If you're going to have a general "what in an hypothetical world would you prefer to see" question then there would be additional options, which would include things like re-negotiation and Article 50 extension.

 

[mmh]

To be fair, it's a small sample, and we already knew that the general feeling on here is towards remain - as indeed it was before the referendum. Likewise myself and others did a straw-poll in a train crew depot a week or two before the referendum, I forget the exact result now but it was something like 90% leave. That combined with some time in the north-east in the lead-up to the referendum where pretty much *every* house had a "vote leave" sign in the window is the first intimation I had that leave might win!

In the aforementioned train crew depot I've not detected a softening towards leave in the time since - in fact I'd suggest it would probably be nearer to 100% leave based on recent conversations!

That's also my anecdotal experience too. There's been no shift.

Just to be "clear" (another word I hate, thank you all politicians!) I'm not saying there's bias in the poll *results* (of course there are, it's reflecting the opinion on here of people who read Brexit related topics), but rather the poll itself. Which is understandable, there would quite probably be a Leave bias if I were to write a poll.

 

[EM2]

Well for a start the poll isn't answering a question. "Should we accept the deal, have no deal or remain" - those are answers, not a question.

But that is the choice that the PM says is before Parliament, 'It's this deal, no deal, or no Brexit'.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Well for a start the poll isn't answering a question. "Should we accept the deal, have no deal or remain" - those are answers, not a question. Those three choices aren't valid options to any question available. The proposed "deal" (god I hate that word!) will either be accepted or rejected. What happens then is a different set of options which follow.

If you're going to have a general "what in an hypothetical world would you prefer to see" question then there would be additional options, which would include things like re-negotiation and Article 50 extension.

except the only 3 options available as a way forward... 1. Accept the deal , 2. Reject the deal and rely on WTO terms or 3. Reject the deal and ask the EU if we can come and join the game again....there ARE no other options at this moment in time...

 

[richa2002]

The EU generally is not in favour of us leaving, so I would expect a decision to remain would be respected. The law would indeed need to be repealed, but that isn't exactly hard.

The way people band around the idea of remaining like it wouldn't be a problem really have no respect for democracy at all. Be very careful what you wish for. I hate to think of the forces that would be unleashed in UK politics if such a thing was to happen. The democratic link between people and state would be well and truly shattered.

 

[Mvann]

The EU won't renegotiate unless 8 countries or more object to the proposed deal. Only Spain is on about vetoing so far. France have passed emergency legislation in case of no deal. France, Belgium, holland and Denmark, I think so far, are not happy about the fishing. If the 27 don't agree on the proposal, the EU either has the choice of no deal or extend article 50. They won't go for no deal as that could cause more problems with the Euro.

 

[mmh]

But that is the choice that the PM says is before Parliament, 'It's this deal, no deal, or no Brexit'.

Well with no great surprise that's wrong, but it's no shock to anyone that she might take the "my way or the highway" approach - there's a lot at stake for her!

except the only 3 options available as a way forward... 1. Accept the deal , 2. Reject the deal and rely on WTO terms or 3. Reject the deal and ask the EU if we can come and join the game again....there ARE no other options at this moment in time...

Two options. Accept or Reject.

 

[bramling]

except the only 3 options available as a way forward... 1. Accept the deal , 2. Reject the deal and rely on WTO terms or 3. Reject the deal and ask the EU if we can come and join the game again....there ARE no other options at this moment in time...

With a caveat, I'd be quite happy with no deal. I get a little sick of all this talk about deals. As far as I'm concerned I voted to leave the EU, which is what no deal delivers.

The current situation has been muddied because May & co have completely neglected to make arrangements for that outcome. Which makes it harder to vote now, as clearly no deal would lead to some undesirable consequences.

Having said that, I'd still run with it, even if it leads to short-term disruption.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The way people band around the idea of remaining like it wouldn't be a problem really have no respect for democracy at all. Be very careful what you wish for. I hate to think of the forces that would be unleashed in UK politics if such a thing was to happen. The democratic link between people and state would be well and truly shattered.

In the face of changing evidence, the only sensible thing to do is to reconsider your plans. A second referendum could be conducted and if it said "remain", then that's democracy.

 

[mmh]

The way people band around the idea of remaining like it wouldn't be a problem really have no respect for democracy at all. Be very careful what you wish for. I hate to think of the forces that would be unleashed in UK politics if such a thing was to happen. The democratic link between people and state would be well and truly shattered.

Exactly. Only today there's a thread about a UKIP controversy. If you didn't like UKIP last time around, wait til next time because they would be one of the only beneficiaries if Parliament were to reverse the referendum result.

 

[Ken H]

Deleted

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think there could actually be some sort of civil disruption...

That would say everything about those who conducted it.

 

[Ken H]

Exactly. Only today there's a thread about a UKIP controversy. If you didn't like UKIP last time around, wait til next time because they would be one of the only beneficiaries if Parliament were to reverse the referendum result.

Britain first
For Britain
Democrats and Veterans Party
Just bringing them to attention - no endorsement given

 

[WelshBluebird]

The way people band around the idea of remaining like it wouldn't be a problem really have no respect for democracy at all. Be very careful what you wish for. I hate to think of the forces that would be unleashed in UK politics if such a thing was to happen. The democratic link between people and state would be well and truly shattered.

How exactly would reconsidering our position based on new evidence, offering a new democratic vote, and potentially that vote leading to a majority deciding actually they'd rather stay in the EU, be anything like having "no respect for democracy at all? I'll remind the leavers again that even your all mighty Nigel Farage wanted a second referendum if the result was a 52 v 48 slim majority.

With a caveat, I'd be quite happy with no deal. I get a little sick of all this talk about deals. As far as I'm concerned I voted to leave the EU, which is what no deal delivers.

The current situation has been muddied because May & co have completely neglected to make arrangements for that outcome. Which makes it harder to vote now, as clearly no deal would lead to some undesirable consequences.

Having said that, I'd still run with it, even if it leads to short-term disruption.

You really have no idea do you?

 

[trash80]

Tiny groups of nobodies, i'd rather handle them than the destruction of the economy personally.

 

[Mvann]

Britain first
For Britain
Democrats and Veterans Party
Just bringing them to attention - no endorsement given

You missed out on the following:

Monster raving looney party
Lord buckethead
Mr fishfinger

 

[Ken H]

That would say everything about those who conducted it.

Have you forgotten the blockades over fuel prices during Blairs government?

 

[Mvann]

Have you forgotten the blockades over fuel prices during Blairs government?

Successfully exported that idea to France

 

[Ken H]

Tiny groups of nobodies, i'd rather handle them than the destruction of the economy personally.

People thought that about AfD in Germany. But they have done well enough to cause the Chancellor to resign. Look up the Bavaria and Hesse state election results this year.
Look at Salvini in Italy, Orban in Hungary

 

[trash80]

Well get your molotov cocktails ready then Ken

 

[mmh]

How exactly would reconsidering our position based on new evidence,

What new evidence would that be?

offering a new democratic vote

Why the strange prefixing of vote with "democratic" with the subtext that there have been any undemocratic votes?

and potentially that vote leading to a majority deciding actually they'd rather stay in the EU, be anything like having "no respect for democracy at all?

Because the only people suggesting a new vote are those who hope it will result in a different outcome to last time. The "Peope's Vote" campaign demonstrates this wonderfully - it is a pro-Remain campaign badly veiled as a campaign for "more democracy" and giving all a second choice. Whenever its leaders and supporters are interviewed it is clear the agenda is to overturn the Leave result and nothing else. You haven't changed your opinion since the "first" vote, because you voted sensibly and "correctly". Why do you assume anybody who voted the other way will have?

I'll remind the leavers again that even your all mighty Nigel Farage wanted a second referendum if the result was a 52 v 48 slim majority.

Nigel Farage is of no relevance. Neither is Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Hoey etc etc. It's not, and was not, about individuals and suggesting it was won't change anyone to your point of view. Rather, belittling people with a different opinion does the opposite - it makes them more resolute in their view.

You really have no idea do you?

And there's a perfect example of that. He clearly does, he's articulate in explaining his view, which will no doubt even parallel yours when it comes to the incompetence of the Government over preparing for the referendum and acting on the result, but because you voted a different way you can't bring yourself to admit that and resort to being rude.

 

[Ken H]

Well get your molotov cocktails ready then Ken

I am merely reporting what some are saying. An old fart like me will sit in his village and watch

 

[richa2002]

How exactly would reconsidering our position based on new evidence, offering a new democratic vote, and potentially that vote leading to a majority deciding actually they'd rather stay in the EU, be anything like having "no respect for democracy at all? I'll remind the leavers again that even your all mighty Nigel Farage wanted a second referendum if the result was a 52 v 48 slim majority.

The logic follows then that we have referenda every two to three years on the European issue. Or do we stop having them as soon as the correct answer of Remain is given? How you can entertain this and pretend you have some kind of democratic virtue at the same time is bizarre.

 

[Ken H]

You missed out on the following:

Monster raving looney party
Lord buckethead
Mr fishfinger

leave Mr Fishfinger alone. He was one of the funniest satirists for years.