Campaign to restore passenger services on the Middlewich Link Line

[The Planner]

Unless a line is officially out of use its going to have patrolling and checks done on it, the frequency will differ on how heavily used it is and the access available. Not sure why anyone would think we would just ignore it.

 

[Philip]

I really thought you'd be able to come up with a more sensible solution than that idea!

First problem - the Middlewich branch is before Northwich station if you approach it before Chester direction so it would go straight from Greenbank to Middlewich.

Second problem - the stations which provide the most passengers for Mid-Cheshire services are:
1. Manchester Piccadilly
2. Knutsford - one of the busiest stations in the country with a standard pattern of 1tph.
3. Stockport
4. Altrincham
5. Chester
6. Northwich

So the business case for 2tph between Northwich and Manchester is very strong, while the business case for 2tph between Greenbank and Chester is weak. While running a Middlewich service to Chester wouldn't connect it to more nearby towns like Northwich and Knutsford or provide a connection with the Manchester Metrolink.

I'm not sure the 200+ commuters arriving in Knutsford from Stockport direction at 08:00 would like the idea of the 08:00 becoming 6 car instead of a more conveniently timed 08:30 service being added. Maybe you also have a proposal for Bolton-Manchester to go to 2 x 12 car trains an hour as well. :roll:

Reversal at Northwich? It's one thing reinstating a previously lifted track but to already have an operational line passing through a busy and growing town and without a station, I think is rather poor and ought to be a priority to make improvements with.

What is wrong with lengthening the trains instead of doubling the frequency? With a useful timetable for commuters and connections I don't see why it'd be worse? If you provide the same number of carriages by having longer trains then capacity remains the same and also less likely for a train to get stopped at signals with less trains using the line.

 

[pemma]

Unless a line is officially out of use its going to have patrolling and checks done on it, the frequency will differ on how heavily used it is and the access available. Not sure why anyone would think we would just ignore it.

Yes Network Rail do maintain the route. It's not just occasional diverted Virgin services which use the Middlewich branch, there's daily booked paths belonging to freight operators like this one: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H00748/2017/08/02/advanced (While that one appears to just be a locomotive movement there are some proper freight movements via the route.)

 

[pemma]

What is wrong with lengthening the trains instead of doubling the frequency? With a useful timetable for commuters and connections I don't see why it'd be worse?

If you live in Stockport, your place of work is 10 minutes walk from Knutsford station and you work 9am to 5pm would you prefer:
1. Arrive in Knutsford at 8am and leave at 5.45pm (as is currently the case)
2. Arrive in Knutsford at 8.30 and leave at 5.15

Do you think everyone has so much free time that they are happy to spend an additional 5 hours of their week waiting for trains?

Reversal at Northwich?
...
and also less likely for a train to get stopped at signals with less trains using the line.

Can you not see your contradicting yourself in trying to defend a non-feasible idea?

If you add a reversal at Northwich the train might be stopped at a red signal before it can go in to Northwich station and then might be stopped at a red signal before it can leave Northwich station in the other direction. There are freight trains reversing at Northwich currently and they can sit there for a while waiting for a green signal.

 

[Holly]

The WCML is only double track for the couple of miles between Acton Bridge and Weaver Jn. Would there be suitable paths available for a Northern service in between all the VTWC, LM and freight trains?

You could avoid crossing any trains onto the WCML double track sections by running a service Crewe-Middlewich-Northwich-Greenbank-Acton Bridge and reverse.

By using the slow platform at Acton Bridge and staying on the slow up line you would not be taking any paths from WCML.

Of course to facilitate changing trains at Acton Bridge would require the Liverpool-Crewe trains that presently pass through non-stop would need to stop. Some could trains skip-stop at Acton Bridge instead of at old Hartford station to preserve WCML paths.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

There will be a small number of diversions via Middlewich this weekend. The Chester - Crewe line is closed for engineering works.

 

[Ianno87]

By using the slow platform at Acton Bridge and staying on the slow up line you would not be taking any paths from WCML.

.

Yes you would.

The Up Slow through Acton Bridge is used to dive freight trains out of the way of following Pendolinos from the Warrington direction - the first decent looping opportunity for a number of miles.

You can't loop if there's a Dogbox sat idling in the platform at the same time.

Let's face it nobody is going to find a journey changing at Acton Bridge an attraction to getting out of their car. Middlewich needs a direct Manchester service to even have a hope of the proposal having legs. Diversion of the 'Greenbank' service would have the least overall addition to operating costs of any service option for the route, so is going to win hands-down compared to the alternatives.

 

[pemma]

According to Silk FM Rail Minister Paul Maynard has said he supports the reopening of the Middlewich line.

 

[QueensCurve]

Also worth mentioning is that Virgin Trains services to/from Holyhead are diverted through Sandbach, Middlewich and Greenbank this weekend, both Saturday and Sunday this time. Arriva services are replaced with a bus between Crewe and Chester, both take roughly the same amount of time due to the slow speed limit through Middlewich. I plan to be on at least one of these trains.

For those of us who once again missed the chance to do this on account of their other commitments, does anyone know when this diversion will next be in force?

 

[theshillito]

Experience says next year. It's usually yearly at most.

 

[Confused147]

If you live in Stockport, your place of work is 10 minutes walk from Knutsford station and you work 9am to 5pm would you prefer:
1. Arrive in Knutsford at 8am and leave at 5.45pm (as is currently the case)
2. Arrive in Knutsford at 8.30 and leave at 5.15

Do you think everyone has so much free time that they are happy to spend an additional 5 hours of their week waiting for trains?



.

You can always quit and find a job in Stockport. Nobody is forcing you to spend 5 hours waiting for a train.

 

[pemma]

You can always quit and find a job in Stockport. Nobody is forcing you to spend 5 hours waiting for a train.

I'm sure many people would like a job 5 minutes walk from their house but for most you can't do that as well as getting a well paid full time job in the field you want to work in.

The 08:00 arrival in Knutsford is a packed 4 car 142 and the 09:00 arrival is a fairly full 156 and that's supposed to be the 'counter-peak' flow!

 

[Altfish]

You can always quit and find a job in Stockport. Nobody is forcing you to spend 5 hours waiting for a train.

Welcome to Norman Tebbit's "Get on your bike" world.

 

[Chester1]

How many people live in Stockport and work in Knutsford and who can't drive or would prefer to take the train? I imagine the number is extremely low. Id guess the service is primarily used for different journeys.

 

[pemma]

How many people live in Stockport and work in Knutsford and who can't drive or would prefer to take the train? I imagine the number is extremely low. Id guess the service is primarily used for different journeys.

There's around 500 schoolchildren and workers who commute by train from Greater Manchester to Knutsford. Knutsford Academy pupils and Barclays (Radbrooke Hall site) workers make up around 80% of that figure between them. Given most services are 2 car and run to an hourly frequency and that Knutsford is the smallest town on the line (the places smaller than Knutsford are villages), that is a very high figure.

 

[Chester1]

There's around 500 schoolchildren and workers who commute by train from Greater Manchester to Knutsford. Knutsford Academy pupils and Barclays (Radbrooke Hall site) workers make up around 80% of that figure between them. Given most services are 2 car and run to an hourly frequency and that Knutsford is the smallest town on the line (the places smaller than Knutsford are villages), that is a very high figure.

Stockport is only part of Greater Manchester though. I suspect many of those commuters will be coming from Altrincham and Hale. The lack of paths from Stockport to Piccadilly and the single track section near Navigation Road means if a third train runs on the line from Crewe via Middlewich then terminating one of the three at Altrincham could be the best option if the paths can be found.

 

[pemma]

Stockport is only part of Greater Manchester though. I suspect many of those commuters will be coming from Altrincham and Hale. The lack of paths from Stockport to Piccadilly and the single track section near Navigation Road means if a third train runs on the line from Crewe via Middlewich then terminating one of the three at Altrincham could be the best option if the paths can be found.

Before someone was arguing there isn't even a need for 2tph and a second service should run via Wilmslow and Middlewich to Chester which is why I made the original post. The same argument applies for journeys to Altrincham, Manchester and other places in Greater Manchester from Knutsford, I just gave times from Stockport as an example.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Before someone was arguing there isn't even a need for 2tph and a second service should run via Wilmslow and Middlewich to Chester which is why I made the original post. The same argument applies for journeys to Altrincham, Manchester and other places in Greater Manchester from Knutsford, I just gave times from Stockport as an example.

Only problem with that is you'd have to change at Greenbank for services to Northwich, Knutsford and Altrincham and you'd have to pay me to do that. And give me a small private army for protection. I used to go to the hell hole of St. Nicks and there were several cases of bus windows being smashed by locals and them trying to gain acces to buses. I'd personally build a link from Knutsford to Alderly Edge to compliment the Sandbach to Northwich route and have the 3rd train go Sandbach - Man Airport via Northwich & Knutsford. Then widen the Navigation Road - Stockport section and reopen Gatley station. Hell this entire comment could become it's own thread!

 

[pemma]

Only problem with that is you'd have to change at Greenbank for services to Northwich, Knutsford and Altrincham and you'd have to pay me to do that.

If you're referring to Philip's earlier proposal there's a lot more than one problem with it.

And give me a small private army for protection. I used to go to the hell hole of St. Nicks and there were several cases of bus windows being smashed by locals and them trying to gain acces to buses.

Are you trying to refer to school pupils doing that or buses being left at depots being vandalised?

I too went to St Nicks and I'm unaware of any incidents where windows were smashed. A number of operators used very old vehicles and some of those were known to fall apart - in one case a door falling off a bus on a day when VOSA turned up to do an inspection!

I imagine the Winsford to St Nicks services were the ones where problems were most likely to occur given they were the ones Cheshire County Council used to trial a yellow school bus scheme on with designated seating and drivers checking off a register of names as pupils boarded.

I'd personally build a link from Knutsford to Alderly Edge to compliment the Sandbach to Northwich route and have the 3rd train go Sandbach - Man Airport via Northwich & Knutsford. Then widen the Navigation Road - Stockport section and reopen Gatley station. Hell this entire comment could become it's own thread!

Why not just the western link between the end of the Airport spur and Mobberley, which is a proposal Network Rail are supposed to be revisiting as a CP6.

 

[Philip]

Before someone was arguing there isn't even a need for 2tph and a second service should run via Wilmslow and Middlewich to Chester which is why I made the original post. The same argument applies for journeys to Altrincham, Manchester and other places in Greater Manchester from Knutsford, I just gave times from Stockport as an example.

The idea doesn't involve Wilmslow. It is basically reforming the Chester-Manchester via Northwich into a Chester-Crewe via Greenbank and Middlewich. The new Greenbank-Manchester stopping service could then pick up the stations east of Greenbank, with double-length trains.

 

[pemma]

The idea doesn't involve Wilmslow. It is basically reforming the Chester-Manchester via Northwich into a Chester-Crewe via Greenbank and Middlewich. The new Greenbank-Manchester stopping service could then pick up the stations east of Greenbank, with double-length trains.

It was so long ago I'd mis-remembered what was said but either way without providing 2tph between Altrincham and Northwich you are not providing a much needed improved service on the busiest section of the Mid-Cheshire line. As already mentioned the 07:17 Manchester-Chester is already 4 car and it's crowded between Altrincham and Greenbank despite being 4 car. The 14:59 Chester-Manchester is also a very busy 4 car service but not overcrowded, partly because it's a slightly higher capacity units used and partly because the schoolkids aren't travelling at the same time as commuters e.g. Barclays workers in the afternoon.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I'm going to answer a few things here.

First, You have a Crewe - Chester via Northwich service and use 2x 153's, widen the 2nd platform to make 3 platforms and have them split at Northwich. One stays and one goes to Chester. and have a third one coming back that meets the one at Northwich and head back to Crewe.

Are you trying to refer to school pupils doing that or buses being left at depots being vandalised?

I too went to St Nicks and I'm unaware of any incidents where windows were smashed. A number of operators used very old vehicles and some of those were known to fall apart - in one case a door falling off a bus on a day when VOSA turned up to do an inspection!

1. I feel sorry for you
2. "...several cases of bus windows being smashed by locals..."
3. LOL. Also that time a buses brakes failed and smashed a railing (that could be after your time. It was before my time)
4. They were still being used when I was in year 8

Why not just the western link between the end of the Airport spur and Mobberley, which is a proposal Network Rail are supposed to be revisiting as a CP6.

My route connects with both the Airport and WCML. That to me makes more sense and you could also get the train to stop at Styal so Cheshire East doesn't have to fund the 200 anymore.

(I couldn'get the quotes to work...)

 

[pemma]

1. I feel sorry for you

Well I came away with 11 GCSEs including 5 A grades so it wasn't overall bad. I think the biggest problem there was the anti-bullying policy focused on ensuring pupils aren't being bullied by older pupils and ignored the bullying that was going on where pupils were being picked on by those in the same year group.

3. LOL. Also that time a buses brakes failed and smashed a railing (that could be after your time. It was before my time)

There were no railings when I started! The bus bays got redesigned with 10 bays (requiring reversals) being put in by relocating some of the tennis courts and part of the fields disappearing. The replacement tennis courts didn't get the green surface that the original ones had. When I started the buses operated on a first in first out approach so there was no fixed bay for where your bus would stop, the buses doubled parked meaning you sometimes had to walk between vehicles to board and the last buses to arrive had to wait on Greenbank Lane until the first ones had left. Not that this has much to do with the Middlewich branch!

My route connects with both the Airport and WCML. That to me makes more sense and you could also get the train to stop at Styal so Cheshire East doesn't have to fund the 200 anymore.

You seem to have missed some of the information in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-propose-43-reduction-in-bus-subsides.146324/

The 200 route is being withdrawn by 1st April 2018. Styal will get extra calls on the Crewe-Airport-Piccadilly services from the May 2018 timetable change. Yes someone at Cheshire East has missed that if they keep the 200 route for a few extra weeks it will minimise inconvenience to passengers. :roll:

 

[no commute yet]

Lots of people in Middlewich are interested in a Chester service because it now takes over an hour in the rush hour to drive the 20 miles. The traffic at Gadbrook is so bad now people can no longer get to Northwich to get the Chester train from there.

Having said that 40% of Middlewich's working population drives to Manchester for work. Imagine all those cars needlessly clogging up the M56/Princess Parkway.

I spotted a comment above about creating a 3rd platform at Northwich but there is one already. There's also a 'Middlewich' platform at Sandbach so the works to get these services running again are minimal.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Lots of people in Middlewich are interested in a Chester service because it now takes over an hour in the rush hour to drive the 20 miles. The traffic at Gadbrook is so bad now people can no longer get to Northwich to get the Chester train from there.

Having said that 40% of Middlewich's working population drives to Manchester for work. Imagine all those cars needlessly clogging up the M56/Princess Parkway.

I spotted a comment above about creating a 3rd platform at Northwich but there is one already. There's also a 'Middlewich' platform at Sandbach so the works to get these services running again are minimal.

By creating, I ment widen the current. And I even said that

 

[no commute yet]

]By creating, I ment widen the current. And I even said that [/QUOTE]

Right, by taking out the railing that currently fences off the 3rd platform?

 

[LOL The Irony]

By creating, I ment widen the current

It needs widening. Only a bit but still. Look there next time a train to Lostock works is waiting there. There's a gap. If you still won't belive me, look on google maps.

 

[pemma]

Lots of people in Middlewich are interested in a Chester service because it now takes over an hour in the rush hour to drive the 20 miles. The traffic at Gadbrook is so bad now people can no longer get to Northwich to get the Chester train from there.

Having said that 40% of Middlewich's working population drives to Manchester for work. Imagine all those cars needlessly clogging up the M56/Princess Parkway.

I spotted a comment above about creating a 3rd platform at Northwich but there is one already. There's also a 'Middlewich' platform at Sandbach so the works to get these services running again are minimal.

Trying to prove Middlewich needs 2tph or that Northwich-Chester requires 2tph will be difficult.

Platform 3 has to be rebuilt to the correct height and step free access (apart from via the barrow crossing which can only be used with staff assistance) has to be created before it can return to use as taking it out of use means it doesn't get the 'grandfather rights' which platform 2 has. I heard someone claiming the work needed at Northwich could cost more than building a new station at Middlewich.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Trying to prove Middlewich needs 2tph or that Northwich-Chester requires 2tph will be difficult.

Platform 3 has to be rebuilt to the correct height and step free access (apart from via the barrow crossing which can only be used with staff assistance) has to be created before it can return to use as taking it out of use means it doesn't get the 'grandfather rights' which platform 2 has. I heard someone claiming the work needed at Northwich could cost more than building a new station at Middlewich.

Hmmm... I wonder if that alone could shelve the project?

 

[no commute yet]

I heard someone claiming the work needed at Northwich could cost more than building a new station at Middlewich.

The LEP consultants report will be available soon so hopefully that will have some costings. Thankfully we're talking peanuts compared to Crossrail, London Bridge, Birmingham etc. There should be accessibility funding that can be called on now for some of the work required anyway at Northwich.

Hmmm... I wonder if that alone could shelve the project?

Unlikely give the Benefit:Cost ratio is 5:1 which is well over what's required for approval.

There's no gap between platforms 2 and 3 at Northwich. There's one platform surface separated in to two spaces by a white and blue iron railing - perhaps that's the 'gap' you're seeing on ariel maps? The campaign have posted a photo of the Northwich Platform 3 on their Twitter @MidCheshireRail