The future does not look good for 141108

[IamTrainsYT]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-pacer-withdrawals-info.166981/

141108s future isn't looking to bright right now... its been reported that it is not at Eastleigh for a repaint, but for scrap.

Has this definitely gone to Margate? There have been more recent reports of it at Eastleigh Works (in the scrapping area?!)

 

[anamyd]

141108s future isn't looking to bright right now... its been reported that it is not at Eastleigh for a repaint, but for scrap.

Not good, the only production Pacer to still have its original Leyland engines and SCG gearboxes. Hope that's not true...

 

[Murray J]

141108s future isn't looking to bright right now... its been reported that it is not at Eastleigh for a repaint, but for scrap.

Which railway is it owned by?

 

[Ewan M]

Which railway is it owned by?

It was owned by the Colne Valley Railway. If 141108 succumbs to the cutter’s torch it will no doubt be a great shame it would also leave 141113 as the sole surviving 141 (as 141103 and the one carriage from 141110 were scrapped by the Weardale Railway a couple years ago)

 

[ed1971]

It was owned by the Colne Valley Railway. If 141108 succumbs to the cutter’s torch it will no doubt be a great shame it would also leave 141113 as the sole surviving 141 (as 141103 and the one carriage from 141110 were scrapped by the Weardale Railway a couple years ago)

I found this: https://www.47soton.co.uk/

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I found this: https://www.47soton.co.uk/

The notes there say it's there for a repaint (despite being in the scrap road).

 

[ZL exile]

I believe that 141108 at Eastleigh is now part of the LSL fleet.

 

[IamTrainsYT]

The notes there say it's there for a repaint (despite being in the scrap road).

I believe that 141108 at Eastleigh is now part of the LSL fleet.

Hopefully your correct

 

[Murray J]

It was owned by the Colne Valley Railway. If 141108 succumbs to the cutter’s torch it will no doubt be a great shame it would also leave 141113 as the sole surviving 141 (as 141103 and the one carriage from 141110 were scrapped by the Weardale Railway a couple years ago)

even better question: why exactly are heritage railways scrapping 141s? are they unreliable or keep on falling into disrepair or something?

 

[anamyd]

even better question: why exactly are heritage railways scrapping 141s? are they unreliable or keep on falling into disrepair or something?

141113 was the only 141 that received the network-style running gear in the early-mid 90s (Cummins engines and Voith hydraulic transmissions). 141108 still has the original spec Leyland engines and SCG gearboxes which are a lot less reliable. This was also the case for the ones that went to Iran which is probably why they only lasted until 2005. When "108" was listed for sale fairly recently, it was even listed as "both engines fine but one gearbox defective".

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Even better question: why exactly are heritage railways scrapping 141s? Are they unreliable or keep on falling into disrepair or something?

I'm guessing its down to lack of spare parts or that the parts are hard to come by, which shouldn't be an issue if parts from a class 142 were to be used instead.

 

[Murray J]

yeah, i'm not sure how many parts are shared between different members of the pacer family, but clearly it's not many, at least with the older 141s.

 

[ed1971]

even better question: why exactly are heritage railways scrapping 141s? are they unreliable or keep on falling into disrepair or something?

yeah, i'm not sure how many parts are shared between different members of the pacer family, but clearly it's not many, at least with the older 141s.

With the exception of 141113, all the other 141s retained the original Leyland TL11 engines and SCG R500 gearboxes. It seems that these gearboxes were so unreliable that the Weardale Railway found it a challenge to operate 141103 in service. https://preserved.railcar.co.uk/Class141.html
https://preserved.railcar.co.uk/55528.html

 

[Anonymous10]

I believe that 141108 at Eastleigh is now part of the LSL fleet.

Surely it's not a class 141

 

[Rikki Lamb]

With the exception of 141113, all the other 141s retained the original Leyland TL11 engines and SCG R500 gearboxes. It seems that these gearboxes were so unreliable that the Weardale Railway found it a challenge to operate 141103 in service. https://preserved.railcar.co.uk/Class141.html
https://preserved.railcar.co.uk/55528.html

Weardale accepted an offer from the scrap man over the offers from preservationists. It was nothing to do with anything other than greed.

I directly raised a query with the railway and that is pretty much the response I got.

 

[43096]

Weardale accepted an offer from the scrap man over the offers from preservationists. It was nothing to do with anything other than greed.

I directly raised a query with the railway and that is pretty much the response I got.

It is not "greed" to get the best possible price when you dispose of something, it is sensible business practice. Preserved railways are not flush with cash - they simply have to get the best value to support their other activities. If no-one is prepared to match the scrapman's price that tells you how much interest there is.

 

[IamTrainsYT]

It is not "greed" to get the best possible price when you dispose of something, it is sensible business practice. Preserved railways are not flush with cash - they simply have to get the best value to support their other activities. If no-one is prepared to match the scrapman's price that tells you how much interest there is.

Would “Sense” on a preserved railway not be to sell it onto another preserved railway. Rather than scrapping part of history?

 

[43096]

Would “Sense” on a preserved railway not be to sell it onto another preserved railway. Rather than scrapping part of history?

If the price is right - yes. But evidently it wasn't. Let's not kid ourselves that is was historically significant: it wasn't unique and wasn't the last of its type.

There's a lesson here for the current wave of Pacer acquisitions - once the hype and initial enthusiasm wears off, these units have to be supported, restored and maintained.

 

[IamTrainsYT]

If the price is right - yes. But evidently it wasn't. Let's not kid ourselves that is was historically significant: it wasn't unique and wasn't the last of its type.

There's a lesson here for the current wave of Pacer acquisitions - once the hype and initial enthusiasm wears off, these units have to be supported, restored and maintained.

I’m sure they will be supported, restored and maintained. Several railways have been collecting spares and one has been donated an extra unit for spares.

 

[43096]

I’m sure they will be supported, restored and maintained. Several railways have been collecting spares and one has been donated an extra unit for spares.

It’s not just about spares: it needs people to support them as well. Once the initial wave of enthusiasm dies down I can see that being a struggle. With so many units preserved, resources will be thinly spread I suspect.

 

[IamTrainsYT]

It’s not just about spares: it needs people to support them as well. Once the initial wave of enthusiasm dies down I can see that being a struggle. With so many units preserved, resources will be thinly spread I suspect.

I dont see why the enthusiasm would die down?

 

[43096]

I dont see why the enthusiasm would die down?

Because there are plenty of people who will move on to whatever the next fad is (whatever gets withdrawn next). There are plenty more with plenty to say and offer no support. Keeping a vehicle running requires a lot of effort in terms of cash and time - how many are willing to spend long hours outside in all weather conditions to keep one running? I just don't believe the Pacers have been that popular. The fact there has been no preservation group for them until very recently (and the less said about that the better) tells its own story.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It certainly won't surprise me if in 10 years time the majority of preserved 142s are either laid up awaiting parts or simply neglected in favour of the "bread and butter" kettles and compartments. Just like with the 141s some may well be sacrificed to keep others going. At least with multiple examples being preserved initially, we probably won't end up like we are now with 141s: only two still intact and one of those with an uncertain future.

 

[Journeyman]

It certainly won't surprise me if in 10 years time the majority of preserved 142s are either laid up awaiting parts or simply neglected in favour of the "bread and butter" kettles and compartments. Just like with the 141s some may well be sacrificed to keep others going. At least with multiple examples being preserved initially, we probably won't end up like we are now with 141s: only two still intact and one of those with an uncertain future.

You're absolutely right. I've lost count of the number of people who have clamoured to preserve something deemed worthy, only for the train to end up irretrievably neglected or vandalised in a very short space of time. It's very easy for armchair enthusiasts to jump up and down and demand that something is saved, but it can only be done with resources, commitment and a genuine use for the item concerned. For example, the Bo'ness and Kinneil Railway was recently offered a class 314, but turned it down. This was met with howls of rage from some, but what exactly are they supposed to do with it, and where are they meant to put it?

I'm surprised so many railways are after Pacers, given that they're clearly not very popular, but I suppose they're robust and simple compared to many other modern units, and will be useful on off-peak services. It probably takes the pressure off the increasingly fragile first generation DMUs.

But yes. In a few years' time, many of them will have gone, and only a few will probably see any regular use. I honestly can't see the Pacers at Whitrope surviving in an open, exposed environment for very long, for example.

 

[IamTrainsYT]

You're absolutely right. I've lost count of the number of people who have clamoured to preserve something deemed worthy, only for the train to end up irretrievably neglected or vandalised in a very short space of time. It's very easy for armchair enthusiasts to jump up and down and demand that something is saved, but it can only be done with resources, commitment and a genuine use for the item concerned. For example, the Bo'ness and Kinneil Railway was recently offered a class 314, but turned it down. This was met with howls of rage from some, but what exactly are they supposed to do with it, and where are they meant to put it?

I'm surprised so many railways are after Pacers, given that they're clearly not very popular, but I suppose they're robust and simple compared to many other modern units, and will be useful on off-peak services. It probably takes the pressure off the increasingly fragile first generation DMUs.

But yes. In a few years' time, many of them will have gone, and only a few will probably see any regular use. I honestly can't see the Pacers at Whitrope surviving in an open, exposed environment for very long, for example.

They are after the pacers because they are cheep, reliable and easy to maintain. The pacers can then be ran to keep money coming in but to also allow there other stock to be maintained / overhauled

 

[Skymonster]

They are after the pacers because they are cheep, reliable and easy to maintain. The pacers can then be ran to keep money coming in but to also allow there other stock to be maintained / overhauled

I think much the same was said about first generation DMUs when they were retired in the 1980s, and mow many of them (although admittedly not all) are festering and deteriorating. Case in point with respect to the Pacers already in preservation - only a couple of weeks ago the Wensleydale put out a picture of one of its Pacers which is already suffering from water ingress, dampness and mould and had to launch a funding campaign to raise money to buy tarp covers for it. These things (Pacers) will require care and maintenance and regular use, and once the initial gloss wears off or they break down with no spares immediately available I suspect the volunteers will refocus on more glamourous projects. Equally the general public, which provide most of preserved railways' income, will not be clamouring for rides in a Pacer - what gets them coming back is steam and to a lesser extent big diesels. I have no doubt a few Pacers will survive in an operational condition for a considerable period, but I suspect many will server for a short few years and then be consigned to a rusty siding.

 

[IamTrainsYT]

I think much the same was said about first generation DMUs when they were retired in the 1980s, and mow many of them (although admittedly not all) are festering and deteriorating. Case in point with respect to the Pacers already in preservation - only a couple of weeks ago the Wensleydale put out a picture of one of its Pacers which is already suffering from water ingress, dampness and mould and had to launch a funding campaign to raise money to buy tarp covers for it. These things (Pacers) will require care and maintenance and regular use, and once the initial gloss wears off or they break down with no spares immediately available I suspect the volunteers will refocus on more glamourous projects. Equally the general public, which provide most of preserved railways' income, will not be clamouring for rides in a Pacer - what gets them coming back is steam and to a lesser extent big diesels. I have no doubt a few Pacers will survive in an operational condition for a considerable period, but I suspect many will server for a short few years and then be consigned to a rusty siding.

I think that damage had come from the poor maintenance of northern rail.

 

[Skymonster]

I think that damage had come from the poor maintenance of northern rail.

Maybe, but it illustrates what can happen pretty quickly if they do not receive proper care, attention or are not kept in a weatherproof environment. I’m not sure all these preserved Pacers are going to get that.

 

[ed1971]

I think much the same was said about first generation DMUs when they were retired in the 1980s, and mow many of them (although admittedly not all) are festering and deteriorating. Case in point with respect to the Pacers already in preservation - only a couple of weeks ago the Wensleydale put out a picture of one of its Pacers which is already suffering from water ingress, dampness and mould and had to launch a funding campaign to raise money to buy tarp covers for it. These things (Pacers) will require care and maintenance and regular use, and once the initial gloss wears off or they break down with no spares immediately available I suspect the volunteers will refocus on more glamourous projects. Equally the general public, which provide most of preserved railways' income, will not be clamouring for rides in a Pacer - what gets them coming back is steam and to a lesser extent big diesels. I have no doubt a few Pacers will survive in an operational condition for a considerable period, but I suspect many will server for a short few years and then be consigned to a rusty siding.

I read a little while ago that refurbished axles for first generation DMUs cost around £20k each. At least the Pacers now entering preservation have gearboxes common to Class 15x and the 142s had new Voith final drives a few years ago. I have no interest in steam (except model railway models of them) and would not have liked to have lived in the time period when they were the main traction on British Railways. I recall reading recently that steam use on preserved railways could be curbed in the near future due to the pollution from them.

 

[Chris217]

I dont think pacers would suffer shortages of spare tbh.
Most other modern units share similar parts.
It's only bodywork that is different
Also,anyone purchasing a Pacer for preservation is unlikely to just let it rot so to speak.
Maybe scrap merchants taking Pacers on can sell components to the preservation market for further use if need be.
They have lasted over 30 years so far as a stop gap! With enough tlc,I wouldnt expect they'd be left to just fall apart with considerable use and only little maintenance.