The Future of Bombardier

[whhistle]

Agreed. They look like they are in freefall - NY has blocked them from being part of a 2000 (!) car bid because of poor performance, and they've lost 3 major Canadian bids back to back (Montreal, Toronto and ViaRail). Massive issues with other units in delivery in NA also.

They may end up in serious financial difficulty as you say, the aircraft division is wiped out and had to be bailed out by Airbus, and the non-delivery must be causing massive cashflow issues (i assume that the majority of the payment is done on a successful unit delivery).

Just amazing how a manufacturer who inherited some of the networker builds from BREL and gather a lot of customers over the years with their series of turbostar/electrostars and then all of a sudden flop with these aventras, when you have near suscessful units such as Desiros and Junipers rolling from CAF/Simens.

Is it now safe to say British motive engineering is coming to an end?

What's amazing is how long they carried on with old designs. Even the 387s are based on a load of old tech (the computers being incredibly outdated and introducing many software issues as time goes on). I know they say 'if it aint broke...' but was it ever not broke?

Now they have come up with something new, but it seems their poor quality control that has afflicted even trains made with 'tried and tested' designs really shows them up.

Some thoughts:

I wonder if they really are in trouble?
With the recent Underground order going elsewhere, the S-Stock must be finished by now?

They're busy with the Aventra for Overground and SWR for now but that's it isn't it?

Yes, they have marketed the bi-mode which Cross Country and East Midlands may order, as I suspect they'll come with a maintenance deal, so Derby would be the ideal lcoation.

But it remind me of National Express, who seemed to own most rail franchises of old, but now where are they? No where.
And the threat of both Stagecoach and Virgin Trains leaving the rail franchising market looms... leaving only First Group to be one of the originals.
Is the same happening with train manufacturers, with TOCs looking at new companies to produce innovative designs, instead of the same old recycled ideas?

 

[dgl]

Part of the reason why franchises have been going elsewhere for trains was because Bombardier would not produce a diesel powered train and such franchises that needed diesels had to go to another manufacturer and as such is where CAF have broken new ground.
As for Stadler, I think it is a mixture of the fact that they will do small special orders and that they had a bi-mode regional train that just needed modifying for the UK market.
Plus they have a good reliability record, something that is important when you want to try and run the service with the minimum amount of trains required/leased which also saves money compared to having to purchase extra trains as spares for when there are breakdowns.

 

[hwl]

Some thoughts:

I wonder if they really are in trouble?
With the recent Underground order going elsewhere, the S-Stock must be finished by now?

They're busy with the Aventra for Overground and SWR for now but that's it isn't it?

No, big orders at Anglia and West Midlands too (and small C2C, remaining Crossrail units)

Yes, they have marketed the bi-mode which Cross Country and East Midlands may order, as I suspect they'll come with a maintenance deal, so Derby would be the ideal location.

But it remind me of National Express, who seemed to own most rail franchises of old, but now where are they? No where.
And the threat of both Stagecoach and Virgin Trains leaving the rail franchising market looms... leaving only First Group to be one of the originals.
Is the same happening with train manufacturers, with TOCs looking at new companies to produce innovative designs, instead of the same old recycled ideas?

The Aventra is currently more innovative than the competitors products due to DfT finally getting clue'd up. They have already sold (by #cars) more Aventras than Electrostars!

The TfL tube contract is scheduled for trial in November '19 (Bombardier/Hitachi JV and Alstom vs TfL) and there is an injunction on follow on orders for other lines at the moment.

With the Hitachi JV they probably have the technical lead on the HS2 phase 1 tender.

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

They're busy with the Aventra for Overground and SWR for now but that's it isn't it?

hm....you do know that there are already almost as many Aventra carriages ordered as the entire 20 year build of Electrostars?

Crossrail (630), Overground(222), Greater Anglia(665), SWR(750), WMT(333), C2C(60)

They're going to be very busy building and storing non working trains for many years to come....

 

[Journeyman]

Part of the reason why franchises have been going elsewhere for trains was because Bombardier would not produce a diesel powered train and such franchises that needed diesels had to go to another manufacturer and as such is where CAF have broken new ground.
As for Stadler, I think it is a mixture of the fact that they will do small special orders and that they had a bi-mode regional train that just needed modifying for the UK market.
Plus they have a good reliability record, something that is important when you want to try and run the service with the minimum amount of trains required/leased which also saves money compared to having to purchase extra trains as spares for when there are breakdowns.

Yeah, the key factor is that Bombardier are not all that flexible. They'll happily build you a massive run of one of their standard products, which is fine if that's what you want, and the Turbostars and Electrostars are great trains. However, if you need something different, you'll have to go elsewhere, which is how CAF got the Caledonian Sleeper orders and how Stadler have made an entry to the UK market. There will always be a need for small, bespoke orders of rolling stock of various types, and Bombardier have made it clear they have no interest in such things.

 

[DarloRich]

hm....you do know that there are already almost as many Aventra carriages ordered as the entire 20 year build of Electrostars?

Crossrail (630), Overground(222), Greater Anglia(665), SWR(750), WMT(333), C2C(60)

They're going to be very busy building and storing non working trains for many years to come....

I thought Derby was stowed out with work on the Aventra fleets!

Surely the comments about the aerospace side of Bombardier are due to the massive tariffs imposed on the Bombardier CSeries planes into America forcing a sale of a large section of the company to Airbus to allow access to their American manufacturing plants

 

[superkev]

The Aventra is currently more innovative than the competitors products due to DfT finally getting clue'd up.

I'm puzzled by this. How have the Dft (dept of twirps) become more clued up and whats the big changes from the trusty 387s.
K

 

[Mogster]

CAF seem to be able to design and produce anything. Loco’s coaches, DMUs, EMUs, trams, worldwide, even for the US market. Why can’t we do this in the UK?

I know there were times when no one in the UK was ordering but even so, that can’t explain it completely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My observation is that Bombardier just likes whining about people not liking their single off the shelf EMU product rather than offering what the customer wants.

 

[DarloRich]

My observation is that Bombardier just likes whining about people not liking their single off the shelf EMU product rather than offering what the customer wants.

seems harsh you are assuming that what the customer wants is possible and deliverable for the fee offered and within the time available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

seems harsh you are assuming that what the customer wants is possible and deliverable for the fee offered and within the time available.

Well, it seems possible for both CAF and Stadler to do it. And you can't call "cheaper labour" because labour in Switzerland is extremely expensive.

 

[DarloRich]

Well, it seems possible for both CAF and Stadler to do it. And you can't call "cheaper labour" because labour in Switzerland is extremely expensive.

but it isnt as simple as that.

 

[Mogster]

Reading about CAF recently because of the Northern order I was surprised by the variety of heavy rail stuff they’ve produced. More surprising as Spain isn’t really somewhere I’d associate with heavy engineering.

 

[43096]

Well, it seems possible for both CAF and Stadler to do it. And you can't call "cheaper labour" because labour in Switzerland is extremely expensive.

But they are not all built in Switzerland - at least some bodyshells have come from Hungary, and think I've seen that later vehicles will be assembled in Poland. As with the other major manufacturers, parts are manufactured in different places and brought together for assembly.

 

[Journeyman]

CAF seem to be able to design and produce anything. Loco’s coaches, DMUs, EMUs, trams, worldwide, even for the US market. Why can’t we do this in the UK?

I know there were times when no one in the UK was ordering but even so, that can’t explain it completely.

It's simply that Bombardier have adopted a particular business model, and that's one that seems to have worked, given that they've built thousands of vehicles to successful designs over the last twenty years or so, and currently have very full order books. You can't make a company enter a business segment it doesn't wish to enter.

They've decided to focus on large runs of standardised products, probably because they know that's what they're good at, and they know there's plenty of upcoming demand for the sorts of things they offer. That's their market segment - CAF and Stadler have theirs. It's the same with cars, planes and just about any other type of vehicle you can mention - there's manufacturers that will offer you a bog-standard product and give you a good deal if you want a lot of them, and there's manufacturers that will produce a small run of specialised products, at a price.

 

[DarloRich]

It's simply that Bombardier have adopted a particular business model, and that's one that seems to have worked, given that they've built thousands of vehicles to successful designs over the last twenty years or so, and currently have very full order books. You can't make a company enter a business segment it doesn't wish to enter.

They've decided to focus on large runs of standardised products, probably because they know that's what they're good at, and they know there's plenty of upcoming demand for the sorts of things they offer. That's their market segment - CAF and Stadler have theirs. It's the same with cars, planes and just about any other type of vehicle you can mention - there's manufacturers that will offer you a bog-standard product and give you a good deal if you want a lot of them, and there's manufacturers that will produce a small run of specialised products, at a price.

a good post - of course that business model has to be subject to change over time if the company is to prosper. if the forward view shows smaller, more bespoke, orders the company must be able to change itself to meet that challenge or decide the market is no longer for them.

Order books are full at present so the model is working. Brexit might drive even more orders!

 

[DarloRich]

EDIT - there does seem to be a downer on Bombardier on these boards and an odd love of the likes of Stadler. Why is that?

 

[jon0844]

Bombardier doesn't appear to have kept with the times, and after years of churning out a mostly old design did finally launch a new product - and has had loads of issues with it. Perhaps it left things too late, meaning that as new regulations have come in and new signalling is (supposedly) around the corner, Bombardier is left playing catch up - but hasn't got the resources to do that AND complete all the new trains it has promised to build.

I assume that just like when everyone said to the DfT that the new timetables were fine, or Crossrail project managers pretended that everything was fine, Bombardier perhaps was a little economical with the truth when stating how capable it was of building all of the trains it bid to build.

I can't really comment on CAF or Stadler as I've not really been on many trains made by them (the nearest perhaps the HEX trains, as CAF/Siemens?). I'll be quite keen to try them out when they're introduced into service.

 

[hwl]

Bombardier doesn't appear to have kept with the times, and after years of churning out a mostly old design did finally launch a new product - and has had loads of issues with it. Perhaps it left things too late, meaning that as new regulations have come in and new signalling is (supposedly) around the corner, Bombardier is left playing catch up - but hasn't got the resources to do that AND complete all the new trains it has promised to build.

I assume that just like when everyone said to the DfT that the new timetables were fine, or Crossrail project managers pretended that everything was fine, Bombardier perhaps was a little economical with the truth when stating how capable it was of building all of the trains it bid to build.

I can't really comment on CAF or Stadler as I've not really been on many trains made by them (the nearest perhaps the HEX trains, as CAF/Siemens?). I'll be quite keen to try them out when they're introduced into service.

Siemens had plenty of issues with 700s software that had knock on effects on the Thameslink Programme.
CAF are also starting to roll out a new generation of TCMS to deal with ETCS and increasing rolling stock complexity so they may well have issues soon but Stadler outsource the TCMS.

building the trains isn't the problem, getting the software working is another matter requiring real in location test runs (E.g. NLL/Goblin night time OHLE voltages being over the limits etc.) to finds issues.

 

[Beemax]

Brexit might drive even more orders!

There's a a danger that asking this question will drive this thread seriously OT, but interested in learning the logic behind that suggestion

 

[cactustwirly]

EDIT - there does seem to be a downer on Bombardier on these boards and an odd love of the likes of Stadler. Why is that?

Because bombardier build trains that are utter crap, and Stadler builds trains that are of a higher standard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because bombardier build trains that are utter crap, and Stadler builds trains that are of a higher standard.

To be fair the Aventra is much better screwed together than the *Star family. But that kind of reputation takes a while to shake off.

 

[Journeyman]

Because bombardier build trains that are utter crap, and Stadler builds trains that are of a higher standard.

What a ridiculous statement. I think the Electrostars are just about the most comfortable trains out there, and they've been very dependable. I also used Turbostars daily until the E&G was electrified, and they're solid, reliable and comfortable trains that do the job they were designed to do very well.

 

[TRAX]

I’ll second that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What a ridiculous statement. I think the Electrostars are just about the most comfortable trains out there, and they've been very dependable. I also used Turbostars daily until the E&G was electrified, and they're solid, reliable and comfortable trains that do the job they were designed to do very well.

There's nothing "solid" about them. Ever been on a Desiro? By comparison they are poor quality rattletraps.

Comfort relates to what seats you put in them. They are comfortable because Southern and Southeastern specified a comfortable seat at a low density, not for any reason relating to their manufacture.

 

[Journeyman]

There's nothing "solid" about them. Ever been on a Desiro? By comparison they are poor quality rattletraps.

Comfort relates to what seats you put in them. They are comfortable because Southern and Southeastern specified a comfortable seat at a low density, not for any reason relating to their manufacture.

Well, of course - it's possible to mess up a good design very easily. But statements like the one I referred to sound like spotter wibble rather than anything with a basis in fact, especially because a Stadler train has yet to turn a wheel in UK service, and CAF stuff isn't very common either.

Making a statement that "all Bombardier trains are crap" is ridiculously simplistic and seems to be based on something about as solid as "I hate Class 47s because they have Sulzer engines".

 

[cactustwirly]

What a ridiculous statement. I think the Electrostars are just about the most comfortable trains out there, and they've been very dependable. I also used Turbostars daily until the E&G was electrified, and they're solid, reliable and comfortable trains that do the job they were designed to do very well.

No they're cheap, nasty, and very poorly built!
Siemens and Stadler trains are better built, and much better designed.
Look at the LO 710s for example, which haven't turned a wheel in service yet!

 

[43096]

There's nothing "solid" about them. Ever been on a Desiro? By comparison they are poor quality rattletraps.

Comfort relates to what seats you put in them. They are comfortable because Southern and Southeastern specified a comfortable seat at a low density, not for any reason relating to their manufacture.

Agreed. It has to be said the Class 387s - built after Bombardier were thrashed on just about every scoring metric on the Thameslink bid - are of much better build quality than the earlier Electrostar and Turbostar builds.

I hope the Aventra ups their game further (not having tried one yet), but they appear to have scored a spectacular own goal with the software on the Aventras. I understand that is all of Bombardier's own doing and is down to a reorganisation of where the software is being developed.

 

[Journeyman]

No they're cheap, nasty, and very poorly built!
Siemens and Stadler trains are better built, and much better designed.
Look at the LO 710s for example, which haven't turned a wheel in service yet!

Granted there's been some horrendous problems with the 710, but there's been problems with other new trains as well.

I still think the statement you've made is a ridiculous generalisation. There's plenty of Bombardier rolling stock in successful and intensive everyday use in this country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. It has to be said the Class 387s - built after Bombardier were thrashed on just about every scoring metric on the Thameslink bid - are of much better build quality than the earlier Electrostar and Turbostar builds.

I would be inclined to agree. The Class 172s are also probably up to Siemens standard, and (apart from the software issues) the Aventras seem similarly well bolted together.

22x are of decent build quality, so one could argue that the build quality issue with *Stars actually originated from Adtranz and not the residual Bombardier operation.