The future of ticketing: ITSO?

[Bletchleyite]

My kids (12 & 15) have bank cards. Neither of them have phone based access to their cards, neither had debit card functionality of any kind until they were past their 11th birthdays. While some providers may offer cards younger, they are the exception.

Pre-paid cards with the adult in control are available at any age, though.

 

[35B]

Pre-paid cards with the adult in control are available at any age, though.

Indeed, but not necessarily entirely centre market - they are not, for example, something that my wife and I have ever come across and though "you know what, that would be great as a way of the kids having access to their cash".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, but not necessarily entirely centre market - they are not, for example, something that my wife and I have ever come across and though "you know what, that would be great as a way of the kids having access to their cash".

Perhaps not, but they're an obvious answer if the railway wishes to move to tap-in tap-out type contactless payment for local journeys.

 

[island]

Pre-paid cards with the adult in control are available at any age, though.

Yes, though most of these have offensive levels of fees.

 

[crablab]

I think this is starting to move off topic a little

 

[Kilopylae]

I think the elephant in the room here is that ITSO is already compatible with many buses and a pure e-ticketing system designed for the railways wouldn't (and probably wouldn't ever) be. Using an inferior system on the railway is surely a price worth paying for the railway and local bus networks to use the same system.

 

[ta-toget]

I think the elephant in the room here is that ITSO is already compatible with many buses and a pure e-ticketing system designed for the railways wouldn't (and probably wouldn't ever) be. Using an inferior system on the railway is surely a price worth paying for the railway and local bus networks to use the same system.

But you've got to get all the bus operators on board. Not all bus operators accept smartcards, and I've a vague feeling (not certain, though) that some operators only accept their own non-ITSO smartcard (not sure whether their systems are capable).

 

[johntea]

I don't mind having a paper ticket as such (in terms of a season ticket rather than an individual use) apart from how they seem to last about a month in ticket barriers before giving up the ghost! I got fed up of visiting the ticket office to replace it so often too so now go through the hassle of trying it to please the staff before they'll let me through (very reluctantly in some cases, last week one gateline assistant purely let me through because my ticket 'looked expensive enough'!!!)

 

[Wallsendmag]

I don't mind having a paper ticket as such (in terms of a season ticket rather than an individual use) apart from how they seem to last about a month in ticket barriers before giving up the ghost! I got fed up of visiting the ticket office to replace it so often too so now go through the hassle of trying it to please the staff before they'll let me through (very reluctantly in some cases, last week one gateline assistant purely let me through because my ticket 'looked expensive enough'!!!)

Why not get an ITSO replacement?

 

[johntea]

Sadly it is a strange hybrid between a 'normal' rail season ticket and a PTE (passenger transport executive) product, neither side want to take full responsibility for it so there isn't an ITSO option available for it! I've been asking them for the past 2-3 years now with the promise it is 'coming soon'...not that I'll be needing it from next year now anyway!

 

[CEN60]

Not really able to grasp what ITSO means - however I have a theoretical question about it - here goes - I am fortunate enough to have a "Silver Status" All station UK Rail Pass which has the ITSO symbol on the card - here in Glasgow the Subway Smartcard Tickets are also endorsed ITSO. Am I correct in thinking that if enabled by say the subway it should be possible to use the Status Pass to hold subway tickets also? ( I have seen "buss pass" cards being used on the subway - so I assume the subway tickets can be loaded on them)

 

[K.o.R]

Not really able to grasp what ITSO means - however I have a theoretical question about it - here goes - I am fortunate enough to have a "Silver Status" All station UK Rail Pass which has the ITSO symbol on the card - here in Glasgow the Subway Smartcard Tickets are also endorsed ITSO. Am I correct in thinking that if enabled by say the subway it should be possible to use the Status Pass to hold subway tickets also?

That is the idea, but of course politics often gets in the way. ITSO is meant to be a technical spec for a smartcard, and any ITSO-compliant card should be able to load any ticket from an ITSO-compliant machine, and operate any ITSO-compliant barrier subject to a valid ticket being held.

I, for example, have loaded Tyne and Wear Metro tickets onto my parents' ITSO Concessionary Passes.

 

[CEN60]

That is the idea, but of course politics often gets in the way. ITSO is meant to be a technical spec for a smartcard, and any ITSO-compliant card should be able to load any ticket from an ITSO-compliant machine, and operate any ITSO-compliant barrier subject to a valid ticket being held.

I, for example, have loaded Tyne and Wear Metro tickets onto my parents' ITSO Concessionary Passes.

Thanks for the info - seems I kind of did understand it after all!

 

[crablab]

that some operators only accept their own non-ITSO smartcard (not sure whether their systems are capable).

I would be interested to know which ones

The greatest use of ITSO thus far is for concessionary bus passes.

 

[K.o.R]

I would be interested to know which ones

The greatest use of ITSO thus far is for concessionary bus passes.

Lothian Buses Ridacard for one

 

[Starmill]

At the moment but we are very close to have tickets sent to mobile devices at stations and I do mean very close. In fact some operators may already be able to do that.

Has been going on for more than two years.

Avanti West Coast already can and do. Though I'm kind-of unsure why you would; why not just buy it on the mobile device? The use-case seems limited to those who don't have any form of payment card but do have a modern smartphone, which outside of children under the age of 13 (I think that's the minimum age for a debit card these days?) is really quite niche.

It's available by email now too even, so technically you don't even need a phone.

Your argument seems to be disproved by the ongoing existence of travel agents shops. Or at least, until the Pandemic...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your argument seems to be disproved by the ongoing existence of travel agents shops. Or at least, until the Pandemic...

1. Booking a holiday is far more complicated than buying a walk-up through train ticket.
2. I bet that most people who use travel agents (other than more specialist ones like Trailfinders) don't have any of their documentation on their phone, rather they'll use printed boarding passes; some may even get the agent to print them out.

 

[smsm1]

Lothian Buses Ridacard for one

Lothian Buses only started using ITSO about 3 years ago, as far as I can see, so older ridacards won't be ITSO.

On the security thing about barcoded tickets elsewhere in the thread, I've spoken with train guards in the past and they are well aware of and share examples of problematic tickets, e.g. where a barcode has been photoshopped on to another bit of ticket info to allow the passenger to get waved through barriers. The guard has then marked the ticket as invalid with commentary of why, so if the ticket is scanned elsewhere it's automatically flagged for further investigation. They also emailed round their team as an example of what to look for. Seems to me there's safeguards in place to prevent misuse of barcoded tickets.

 

[Starmill]

1. Booking a holiday is far more complicated than buying a walk-up through train ticket.
2. I bet that most people who use travel agents (other than more specialist ones like Trailfinders) don't have any of their documentation on their phone, rather they'll use printed boarding passes; some may even get the agent to print them out.

Maybe it is for you! It's significantly easier to buy a package holiday online than a Shrewsbury to Ridgmont Super Off Peak Return though, for example. A journey I have actually made, and I found it effectively impossible to get the correct ticket otherwise than asking for it at the ticket office. Another key reason why you might need to use a ticket office is if the train is fully reserved online and you wish to try your luck (which happens all the time now).

 

[73128]

I haven't heard of it by name, I assumed it existed.

As I said, I think would be difficult and computationally expensive to run anti-fraud checks in the "authorisation loop" when you're scanning your ticket at the gate, working out whether it's possible for you to be at that gateline, based on your previous journey history. Plus, prone to error (clock skew, anyone?), particularly within London where tolerances would be very tight as things are very close together.

You could do it in the background, sure, but that would be reactive.

---

Essentially, it's a very different threat model. At the moment, the thread model is we trust the validity of paper tickets and smartcards intrinsically (the latter because the 'unique' magstripe is hard to forge, the latter because we can cryptographically prove it is genuine).

You cannot trust an e-ticket in the same way.

In Czech R you can buy rovers to print at home, and when tickets are checked (which they are quite frequently) the machine is slow and I understand that it checks that it is reasonable for you to be where you are now compared with when it was last checked, (since multiple copies could be printed..)

 

[island]

That seems a bit superfluous; I understand Czechia has a mandatory ID carrying law so it could be tied to ID name/number.

 

[Kilopylae]

where a barcode has been photoshopped on to another bit of ticket info to allow the passenger to get waved through barriers

I know of someone who tried this photoshopping an e-ticket and all they got out of it was a very socially uncomfortable and expensive conversation at Waterloo station. In practice, e-tickets are no less secure than orange cardboard.

 

[philthetube]

Many people use travel agents because it is easier to correct mistakes made when dealing with a person than when buying online.
To a certain extent this also applies if you buy at a small station and know the staff.

Also, (and off topic) for a discount with an agent you may have a good relationship with

 

[david1212]

Maybe it is for you! It's significantly easier to buy a package holiday online than a Shrewsbury to Ridgmont Super Off Peak Return though, for example. A journey I have actually made, and I found it effectively impossible to get the correct ticket otherwise than asking for it at the ticket office. Another key reason why you might need to use a ticket office is if the train is fully reserved online and you wish to try your luck (which happens all the time now).

Putting the current situation aside it is far quicker to buy a ticket let alone a combination of split-fare tickets at a booking office than using any online system. The way forward would be after payment to present your ITSO card to the reader for the tickets to be loaded rather than getting card or ( ugh ) paper tickets. The full details would be sent to the email address linked to the ITSO card.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Putting the current situation aside it is far quicker to buy a ticket let alone a combination of split-fare tickets at a booking office than using any online system. The way forward would be after payment to present your ITSO card to the reader for the tickets to be loaded rather than getting card or ( ugh ) paper tickets. The full details would be sent to the email address linked to the ITSO card.

Why not just send the tickets to the email address and cut out the non eco friendly card?

 

[crablab]

Why not just send the tickets to the email address and cut out the non eco friendly card?

Or indeed, their mobile device with an ITSO compliant wallet application

 

[Wallsendmag]

Whats the obsession with ITSO ?

 

[crablab]

I mean, it is a thread about ITSO

But I think I laid out some of it's advantages in the original post.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The only advantages I can see are not needing to do encode exchanges and the spped of read at a barrier.

 

[ta-toget]

I would be interested to know which ones

The greatest use of ITSO thus far is for concessionary bus passes.

I meant aside from concessionary bus passes (as in you can't load a ticket onto it, but you can onto their own). I'm not certain, since I've never attempted to make use of it.