The Great Circular European Railway Challenge

[Glenmutchkin]

Mark
Are you bored with sunbathing already? If you are that desparate for something to do have a look at the European Track Mileages thread in the International Section. We are starting to get some sources for this.

Personally I was wondering about solving the underwear issue by adopting the kilt. Might rule out upper berths though.

 

[Donbacsi]

I am not obsessive, but I do have a few rules I employ on my trips so that I may finish in an enjoyable manner. Premier rule is "Time is the most valuable element of a trip." If it require I splash a little cash to get what I want/need expedititiously, so be it.
Another rule I always try to follow, "If it seems to be too good to be true, and the locals aren't doing it, it is probably too good to be true." A friend of mine spent 4 months bumming around India. One night she found an entirely deserted, perfect beach and decided to sleep under the vast array of stars as the gentle breezes of the Indian Ocean cooled her. The next morning she awoke to find minute worms underneath her skin. Which explained why several million homeless locals don't sleep on the beach, under the stars with the cooling breezes.
Rule #7 is about feet. Guard your feet at all costs. You can probably do this trip with your arm in a sling, or even a cast. However, if you severely sprain an ankle, or wear the wrong shoes and get a cracked metatarsal, you are done. You simple cannot get off the train, hustle down the platform, down the stairs, through the under pass and up the stairs and across the platform to climb aboard in that condition. Unless your mates are willing to carry you on a litter, you are stuffed.
Another rule is to guard you entire aliamentary canal against attack by all bacterial and/or viral enemies. We have all been to countries where one cannot eat the lettuce. I have seen ice cubes that did not reqire a microscope to see the amoebic dysentary suspended in the cubes. I have used train showers (not yet in Turkey) and never had a problem. But, I still feel the desire to wash my hands after washing them in a sink that says, "Warning: Water is NOT potable." And, yes, I have used bottled water to wash my underwear (and socks) on those rare occasions where the tap water is browner than my unmentionables!

 

[mickpop]

No doubt we will get some valuable contributions from you as things progress. I expect thoughts will turn towards disposable underwear somewhere down the track. Did the paper shreddies ever make it to India?

I mixed and matched in India between conventional shreddies and disposables. The latter have the Strictly Come Dancing factor - plenty of ballroom - but are rather insubstantial against cold rexine seats and lacking in support. I bet that the disposed of disposables are probably still giving someone good service in India! Washing undies in Darjeeling you didn't need starch, they just froze on the line when hung out to dry.

Looks like there won't be time to look up my Stasi records in Berlin. I was locked up four times in the old DDR in Cold war days [and once in Poland] for taking photos to near to the border and for parking too near an SS20 missile concealed in the nearby forest so they must have something on me.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Looks like there won't be time to look up my Stasi records in Berlin. I was locked up four times in the old DDR in Cold war days [and once in Poland] for taking photos to near to the border and for parking too near an SS20 missile concealed in the nearby forest so they must have something on me.

Wow. A real man of mystery. Did you meet Rosa Klebb? You'll be looking forward to the stopover in the converted military prison in Ljubljana then. Perhaps we ought to get some tips from you on how to resist interrogation.

 

[Donbacsi]

Not being the brightest bulb in the knife drawer and not the sharpest knife in the chandelier, back in the good old "Workers' Paradise" days I had many sub-machine guns stuck in my belly and up my nose before I learned the Hungarian word "TILOS" in giant letters did not mean "Tourists Welcome" but rather "Forbidden".

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Mark
Somewhere you posted about the need for passport checks between Italy and Switzerland. Apparently the Swiss joined the Schengen Zone in December 2008 so that's one potential hassle out of the way.

 

[Mark_Lester]

Dave, If you promise to turn up in a kilt, I will do the whole bloody thing in a sarong and one of these natty Balinese head scarves I am about to pop out and get

Mick, you have clearly done a lot more euro-railing than you are letting on. And I'll bet there's some freedom of information act in Deutschland that permits you to get your stasi file.

Don, we're all fully paid up member of the quality counts club. We're not going to be going 1st class, I dont think that's quite necessary and some of the gang would find that difficult, but we'll of course be having proper sleepers, and we'll be grabbing hotel rooms, or at least hostel dorms with en-suites, to make it as civilized as possible, and we certainly wont be skimping on the picnic baskets contents.
And that's way too much information about the state of your underwear.

Anyway, back to something the community at large might find more engaging.

WHAT TIME DOES THE SLEEPER GET INTO ISTANBUL
I'm going to contact this Metropolis place to see what they'll offer. It sounds ideal, slap bang in the middle of the tourist epicentre. The thing is we'll span 2 hotel days obviously, but if it's likely not to roll in till past 10:00 then we can just book the biggest dorm they've got for the afternoon.

OK, back to the pool.....

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Lady Glenmutchkin has vetoed the kilt. She says that it is because my knees are unsuitable

Regarding Istanbul. The key things here are going to be respectable showers, towels and secure storage for bags. I can't imagine that anybody is going to want to fester in a pit all day rather than go exploring.
Why not explain this to the Metropolis guy, tell him that we are on the overnight from Bucharest, by the way does he know how reliable the arrival time is and we would like breakfast for an engine driver's dozen on arrival. We have chosen him because of the fantastic reviews that he gets and he will earn our undying gratitude if he can help. P.S We are even willing to pay.
If he comes back with an outrageous quote we've got plenty of time to look around.

Is the rain really 32 degrees C in Bali?

 

[Donbacsi]

Has anyone else heard or read of this Croation Visa scam?
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi..._from_Budapest_to_Venice_BEWARE-Budapest.html
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Has anyone else heard or read of this Croation Visa scam?
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi..._from_Budapest_to_Venice_BEWARE-Budapest.html
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Has anyone heard or read of this Croatian Visa Scam?
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi..._from_Budapest_to_Venice_BEWARE-Budapest.html

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Don
It sounds like those boys got scammed. This is from the visit Croatia site

Visa Requirements for Croatia
Foreign visitors do not normally require visas to enter Croatia. Citizens of the U.S., the U.K., EU countries, Australia and New Zealand DO NOT need visas.

But still a point well raised. We will need to double check the requirements for all of the non-Schengen, non-EU countries.

Also we may have non-EU residents on the trip with us.

 

[Mark_Lester]

Lady Glenmutchkin has vetoed the kilt. She says that it is because my knees are unsuitable

so are we both in sarongs then ?

Regarding Istanbul. The key things here are going to be respectable showers, towels and secure storage for bags. I can't imagine that anybody is going to want to fester in a pit all day rather than go exploring.
Why not explain this to the Metropolis guy, tell him that we are on the overnight from Bucharest, by the way does he know how reliable the arrival time is and we would like breakfast for an engine driver's dozen on arrival. We have chosen him because of the fantastic reviews that he gets and he will earn our undying gratitude if he can help. P.S We are even willing to pay.
If he comes back with an outrageous quote we've got plenty of time to look around.

yes yes yes. of course we're not going to be hanging around all day in there, but at the same time we wont want to be on the go for 12 hours in Istanbul. So it's a bag drop and arbitrary shower and/or forty winks option.
we will only need bag storage once the sun goes down (i.e they can have the dorm back and we'll move the bags into a room), but we'll still need that till 9ish. all in all, for a dorm that we'll probably be paying half price for cos I'm sure we'll be nearer 20 than 12, if it means 2 days then so be it, but it's worth haggling over.

Is the rain really 32 degrees C in Bali?

well no, but it's' not cold either. In th'Amazon, where the rain has been sitting on trees just hours before, the rain is proper luke warm.

 

[Donbacsi]

Re: Croatia. It would seem two minutes on a good train map would reveal the name of this scrofulous border crossing. Then, perhap, a missive to the UK and/or US embassies there might reveal if there really are problems in this rat hole. I doubt they would try to boot 20 odd men at once, as there are only 3 taxis in the entire town. That would mean a dozen upset men would be cooling their heels while the first set were transported. It seems the idea is to shake you down and then get you out of town immediately. The post on TripAvvisor lists his home as Australia, but his log on name has the word Shanghai in it. Who knows where he's from and what kind of documents he presented. A double check all around seems in order. They probably wouldn't try to hold everyone, but might try to "cull the herd" for two or three weak links.

 

[Mark_Lester]

Mark
Somewhere you posted about the need for passport checks between Italy and Switzerland. Apparently the Swiss joined the Schengen Zone in December 2008 so that's one potential hassle out of the way.

Ah, good oh. It's the Tirano swap over for the Bernina. I think the passport guy stands/stood next to the ticket collector at the swiss station as I remember.
So great, we still wont have enough time to do any shopping, but we've got proper contacts in Milan. A picnic feast times 20 works out at a shed load of stuff obviously, customs alone could take days

 

[mickpop]

I was sure I saw a news item that Croatia had joined the EU this month?

Sorry, suffered from premature adjudication, it has signed the treaty but won't become a member until mid-2013.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Sorry, suffered from premature adjudication

Mick
Don't worry. If handled with care this sort of thing can be sorted.

According to Wiki Croatia joins the EU ( if it still exists by then) on 1st July 2013. I expect that this will be celebrated with slivovic, kalashnikovs and a total shut down of the railway system.
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Santa has played a blinder and brought me a Thomas Cook European with loads of mileage info. Well kilometres anyway.

 

[Mark_Lester]

good lad santa. should be able to work out most of it, though some of the sleepers, the amsterdam->copenhagen one which does a huge S via cologne and odense, need doing piecewise. and there's high speed lines too in benelux, italy and france to consider. has it got maps with distances between nodes ?, if so I guess I should get on amazon and bag one too.
budapest to istanbul via brasov is going to take some working out via a map i would think.I'm still not entirely sure which way we go south from bucharest anyway.
I will be charting the whole route at some stage, so would be nice to be able to cross ref.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

The distances are listed next to the timetables - not on the maps. A doddle where the full trip of a train is listed on one timetable, quite easy as long as it keeps the same number on 2 or more and a bit tricky beyond that. Will PM you the list when I have finished it.

 

[burns20]

Did budapest to zagreb by train. Border checks are a bit scary, i was on my own in a compartment in the dark. They open ur luggage have dogs sniff them then stamp ur passport with a nice steam loco stamp.

 

[Mark_Lester]

Did budapest to zagreb by train. Border checks are a bit scary, i was on my own in a compartment in the dark. They open ur luggage have dogs sniff them then stamp ur passport with a nice steam loco stamp.

burns, If we dont get at least some of that i'll be disappointed, seems the entire rest of it is in shengen, bar northern scando i suppose.
when did you go ?

dave, excellent work!. i've been comparing our plan to other missions. anyone going to vietnam, and indeed on to singapore, clocks up more. but it usually takes them at least twice as long.
for a 2 weeker you'd have to go back and forth along the trans sib to match us.
as for 23 countries, 22 capitals etc etc etc, then times that by a double figure sized gang, i seriously doubt anyone can match us. and if they did they spent a lot more and were totally shagged at the end of it.

Unless of course you know different, if you know of, or better still did, a railathon that compares please tell us so I can add it into an SEO enhancing blog post. I know about "ultimate train challenge", but i also know of at least two guys (rail professionals actually) who did london-singapore flat out. a key angle to this is you dont have to stick to the rails, if getting a bus works out, cos there aint a track, or the train only runs once a week etc, then get the bus!

 

[Mark_Lester]

I updated the route kilometerage as per your spreadsheet, including the 274 km of road up to narvik we are still over 18,000, though there's these iberians which I didnt get.
According to my figures I now get an unimpressive 75km/h average running speed. (better than the trans sib or gcirc though)

Also, I note that the amsterdam-copenhagen train leaves at 19:01, I think that means we can use the pass from that point, seat61 suggests that if it leaves after 7 in the evening then if you are on a sleeper you can count it as midnight.
So I think we are good for the rest of the route on the pass.
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Also, just looking at "6 hours in Paris", we're all going to be a bit effyouseekayed by then, and also if we get back a few hours earlier then folks can get trains oop north. we end up at this Montparnasse so there may be a railway relevant cyclic thing we can do, which of course will include the champs Elysees and that tower, but we' should prob aim for an earlier train than the 8 O'Clock.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Re Paris - the obvious railway connected thing to do is the Musee d'Orsay, a superb art gallery in a converted railway terminus. We could also travel Montparnasse - Eiffel Tower - Gare du Nord using the Outer Circle Metro lines, parts of which are above ground and give great views of Paris.

PS What's that dodgy diesel that you have put up as a mugshot?

 

[Mark_Lester]

Re Paris - the obvious railway connected thing to do is the Musee d'Orsay, a superb art gallery in a converted railway terminus. We could also travel Montparnasse - Eiffel Tower - Gare du Nord using the Outer Circle Metro lines, parts of which are above ground and give great views of Paris.

oh great
i suppose 21:29 should be enough for you to get the highland express, doesnt it leave about 11pm ?
andrew, my other northerner, will prob drive down and kip at châteaux lester

PS What's that dodgy diesel that you have put up as a mugshot?

it's a class 40, local delicacy from my neck of the woods. i would have chosen a deli but I thought it too cliché
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just had a look at this art gallery. 1 hour guided tour group ticket for 75 euro bucks, it's 7 euros a go per person, so it's like having an english speaking guide for less than free, we'll just add it in as part of the trip.
it's 120 for an hour an a half, i wonder what is so special about the extra half an hour as it's obviously costing more per minute, but an hour is round about my attention span anyway.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

it's a class 40, local delicacy from my neck of the woods. i would have chosen a deli but I thought it too cliché

At least Mick did the decent thing and used a piccy of a steam loco.

Lady G will never believe that I recommended an art gallery. Those places have such hard floors. An hour is def max and we must insist on going up to the top floors where you get the real feeling of it being a massive train-shed.

I need to give a great deal of thought about whether I really want to get straight onto another sleeper so do not worry about timings at the end for me. having said that we could probably do Orsay, Eiffel Tower, lines 6 and 2 on the metro and still get an earlier train.

Unless! We arrive in Paris on the final day of the TdF and go to shout Cav home for his Green Jersey triple.

 

[Mark_Lester]

At least Mick did the decent thing and used a piccy of a steam loco.

stop being such a clapped out smokey old boiler about my platform trembling diesel.

Lady G will never believe that I recommended an art gallery. Those places have such hard floors. An hour is def max and we must insist on going up to the top floors where you get the real feeling of it being a massive train-shed.

one of the tour options is the history of the building, but i'd prefer "works that shocked the world", then we can just go to the top, if we didnt do it already, and admire the view.

Unless! We arrive in Paris on the final day of the TdF and go to shout Cav home for his Green Jersey triple.

it will be the 100th tour. it would mean a Sunday of course, so that would scupper the guided tour, but johnny for one, who is a cycling nut case, would be very much up for that, we'd have to see how the dates panned out.
I just looked, and based on this year, if we timed it to make the end of the tour we'd hit narvik after the 24 hour sunlight has stopped, so that's out.

re the first day, mark has it in here in white and blue, under

The 'overnight trains leaving after 19:00' rule...

http://www.seat61.com/Railpass-and-Eurail-pass-guide.htm

so we'll get eurostar group travel to book us all the way to amsterdam, which we would anyway cos there is next to no saving on that thalys with a pass, then the pass will take us all the way round back to paris, bar the supplements of course.

ah bugger, this is for flexi-passes, it has to start on or before the day of dep, so no, this rules doesnt apply for us. so I have to work out which is cheaper, the full (with group discounts) fare from amsterdam to copenhagen, or the train from hendaye
actually that's not right either, we'll need the pass into the final day for the sleeper from lisbon, so we need a quote from eurostar all the way to copenhagen.

the thalys leaves from centraal, but yes, the eurostar stops at midi, and we then have to wait 18 mins, might we best enjoy a tram ?, I guess it will take 15 mins to grab a waffle and change trains anyway, and we're booked through so I'm sure it will be free.

and yes it's stupid early, it the waves you see, they are about 10ft away (plus a tsunami resistant 40ft of cliff!)

 

[Donbacsi]

Do you add mileage if you use the Metro and/or above ground commuter lines in B-pest, Paris, etc.?

 

[Mark_Lester]

Do you add mileage if you use the Metro and/or above ground commuter lines in B-pest, Paris, etc.?

we're struggling to get back over 18,000 rail kilometers now that we've lost Sicily, so yes, including trams, and that will include subterranean, we've two of the biggest tunnels in europe, both twice, on the trip.
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I stand corrected on the thalys, all the posh trains leave from midi, so we'll have to have a clinical plan in place to get everyone to the square, and that rude little boy, pick up as wide a range of Belgian beer as we can carry, then back to midi without losing anyone. actually the beers should be done near by midi obviously.

anyway, I'm sat here watching the waves and drowning my footballing sorrows,
have a great 2012 everyone

 

[Donbacsi]

Well then, a couple of minor suggestions. Take the Ring Strasse tram from one station to the next (ride as much of it as time allows). Unless you are determined to view every possible aspect of the Danube, I would pass on the Vienna Centrum look-see. It is little more than a mud flat there, and the only "view" is the Orson Welles Ferris Wheel far off on the other bank. If you are a photo bug, take your telephoto lens and a good haze filtre. If you insist on bagging the tram for the view, you will lose miles and have an entire entourage of enemies until they see the heart stopping view in B-pest...and then they will really hate you.
When you arrive at Keleti PU, hop off and dash to the Metro. Take it three stops to Ferenciek Tere stop. From there you are a long block walk to the Central Market and the Duna. Two trams (#'s 2 & 6) run up and down either side of the river and both afford amazing views of all the major buildings. Take the tram headed to your right (north) at least until you pass the Parliament building (one metre wider and one metre longer than the British Parliament). Then just toodle back to the market for your foray. Naturally, return to Keleti by Metro. This should add at least another ten miles to the trip and will greatly enhance you touristic appreciation of the city.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

you will lose miles and have an entire entourage of enemies until they see the heart stopping view in B-pest...and then they will really hate you.

Don - to be be honest I rather think that Mark was hoping that nobody would point this out until after our victims had committed themselves irrevocably.
But please do not be discouraged - we love your input. Happy New Year.

 

[Mark_Lester]

Don - to be be honest I rather think that Mark was hoping that nobody would point this out until after our victims had committed themselves irrevocably.
But please do not be discouraged - we love your input. Happy New Year.

many thanks don, please keep it coming

I've already yielded on doing the Danube in Vienna as a pre-requisite, I just like the idea of noting it as we ride down the Balkans.
The ringstrasse goes alongside it, though the yellow tram doesnt start till 10, and I think we've agreed to leave earlier than 11 from wien
http://www.bigboytravel.com/europe/austria/vienna/tramtour
the key question is, whats the most obvious photo op in Vienna, I am assuming thats stephanplatz. actually, a pitifully small amount of research shows that it clearly is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephansplatz,_Vienna
so we need a cute way of going from west to sud via that, and grabbing some breakfast in the process. the breakfast could be consumed on the train to bratislava, though this suggests it might be worth sitting down http://www.wien.info/en/shopping-wining-dining/coffeehouses/brunch

blinkn' 'eck, whats this
http://www.wien.gv.at/english/transportation-urbanplanning/central-station.html
they're building a sodding great central station there called hauptbahnhof
i was hoping we could just get this cathedral out of the way and then make a beeline for sudbahnhof, have a sit down in cafe ritazza in the station then get on the move.
a search for cafes in sudbahnhof produces scores, but as per usual I want to know exactly what the plan is else we'll waste time walking up and down choosing one and getting it wrong. twas what t'internet was invented for.
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theres a cafe chain called aida, they've one virtually in stephanplaz, opens at 7am, we'll all be able to sit straight down.
so land 6:22, straight off to stephanplaz, do the photographic rituals, it will be dead quiet so no shooing away any nasty tourists out of shot, then hit aida, we'll be out of there by 8:00. there's an 08:50 to my petrzalka, gets in at 10, which gives us bags of time to get across town and the 11:54 to budapest, getting in at 14:35, giving us an extra 2 hours to make use of don's superb local knowledge, and of course ensure we've enough bread, fire sausage, and quality wine to keep us going all the way to the bosphorus.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

theres a cafe chain called aida, they've one virtually in stephanplaz, opens at 7am, we'll all be able to sit straight down.
so land 6:22, straight off to stephanplaz, do the photographic rituals, it will be dead quiet so no shooing away any nasty tourists out of shot, then hit aida, we'll be out of there by 8:00. there's an 08:50 to my petrzalka, gets in at 10, which gives us bags of time to get across town and the 11:54 to budapest, getting in at 14:35, giving us an extra 2 hours to make use of don's superb local knowledge, and of course ensure we've enough bread, fire sausage, and quality wine to keep us going all the way to the bosphorus.

I love it when a plan comes together.

On a less positive note SNCB don't seem to have an enquiries e-mail and want to charge 30p per minute if you call their Multilingual Contact Centre. I shall keep looking.