The Great Railcard Catch-22?

[CompactDstrxion]

You are at an unstaffed station, with a ticket machine. You have a 16-25 Railcard. There is a scheduled service for 1000. In fact it's running a couple of minutes early standing at the platform now, and will probably leave bang on 10 if not a few seconds before.

Unfortunately, the ticket machine is dumb and wants to charge a £12.00 minimum fare to use your railcard because technically it's not 1000 yet. But if you board the train you won't be able to buy a discounted ticket because the station has a ticket machine. So how do you exercise the use of your railcard? Hopefully the Train Manager would be understanding but you can't guarantee that...

And why oh why aren't ticket machines sensible about the pre-10am minimum fare?

Not had this experience myself but thought it up when I got to Haymarket at 0956 this morning and was frustrated by the ticket machine.

 

[yorkie]

You should be able to buy on board as your fare if not available from the machine. If the guard refuses to accept, get a UFN and pay £10 explaining why you are not paying £12?

 

[EM2]

I used to catch a train that was the first Off-Peak service (I think it was 09.16), and I always bought my ticket from a TVM. As long as I bought it after the previous train had gone, I could get the Off-Peak ticket.
Is it different for Railcard-discounted tickets?

 

[Z12XE]

Is it different for Railcard-discounted tickets?

Yes, wont discount tickets until 10.

The S&Bs have the same software and is aparently not possible to allow discounts earlier in this situation, although I suspect its a case of "won't" not "can't" when it comes to the TOC getting it adjusted as obviously the machine is able to display popular tickets for that destination so there is a variant in the settings for the different machines.

 

[Helvellyn]

If you travel from a station on a regular basis find out if the Ticket on Departure is available from the TVM there yet. If it is, then, buy your ticket online (various sites) and just collect from the TVM with the payment card and the reference code given at the time of purchase.

simples
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Alternatively, you could always buy an Anytime Single to the first station the train stops at, get on the train, go see the Guard and ask for Condition 3 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage to be applied:

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.​

 

[me123]

You can get away by less honest means, such as "the machine wouldn't take my note". This is one that people do quite a bit on Scotrail now that you can't buy reduced price tickets on board. It's dishonest, but if they have no reason to doubt you, they have to sell you the ticket.

I think ticket machines really should be updated with basic timetable information. For example, in this case, if there's a train at 09:31 and the next one's at 10:01, they should sell the reduced price railcard ticket after 09:32. But I suppose the technology would be expensive, complicated and probably wouldn't work.

 

[Helvellyn]

I think ticket machines really should be updated with basic timetable information. For example, in this case, if there's a train at 09:31 and the next one's at 10:01, they should sell the reduced price railcard ticket after 09:32. But I suppose the technology would be expensive, complicated and probably wouldn't work.

How is the TVM meant to know if the 09:31 is delayed though? A twenty minute delay could mean someone buys a discounted ticket at 09:35 and uses it on a train it's not valid on.

 

[jon0844]

The old machines at Hatfield used to sell off peak tickets from 0925, although they wouldn't at the ticket window until the 0924 had left - even if it was delayed and resulted in the off-peak train going before it.

The 0924 was not an off-peak service. The 0927 was.

Before I had an annual season ticket, I did once get an off-peak ticket and get what turned out to be the delayed 0924 (at around 0940 or so) - this was before they had CIS at the station (Wagn days) - and the RPI let me off as I pointed out that I boarded a train after 0930 (and indeed, it wouldn't arrive in London before 1000 now!) and so I considered myself to have a valid ticket.

I am sure someone will point out that this is incorrect (I know it is - and the same applies for the evening peak) but common sense hopefully prevails here.

Stations with timings such as this should have a procedure in place to deal with it.

 

[theblackwatch]

How is the TVM meant to know if the 09:31 is delayed though? A twenty minute delay could mean someone buys a discounted ticket at 09:35 and uses it on a train it's not valid on.

This argument doesn't really wash as it also applies if a customer purchases a ticket via another means in advance, for example online. Why is it possible to purchase in advance by one means but not another? Is it not up to the guard or revenue staff to check validity, or are they incapable of doing this nowadays?

 

[Lampshade]

Is each TVM individually programmed for different stations?

I was thinking that they could program them to sell the discounted tickets without the minimum fare provided the next departure from that station is later than 10:00, can't be too difficult.

 

[asylumxl]

Sorry to be so negative, but it's my belief this is quite deliberate. The TOCs believe customers will be in a hurry, and either buy an anytime ticket or pay the incorrect price for the off-peak ticket. As a regular commuter on FCC TL I can definetly say this happens.

It's all in the name of revenue. I've got to say on many commuter lines, I've seen revenue collection officers try and make people buy new tickets when there is no need. I myself have interrupted a few times. If it is sold to you by the TOC I believe the revenue is not split among the operators and the officers earn comission. Telling lies to earn extra comission is disgusting.

 

[yorkie]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/simple_fares.html

OFF - PEAK

"Buy any time, travel off-peak"

What part of "buy any time" do some staff not understand?!

That's buy any time, not buy off peak.

Of course, it's okay for some staff to break the rules isn't it? :roll: But when customers do, the same staff who break the rules throw a major wobbler.

If they break the rules and refuse to sell me a ticket for the 0927 at Hatfield, then surely you are within your rights to jump over the barriers and get on it and buy on board?Or is it a case of double standards? :roll:

Sorry to be so negative, but it's my belief this is quite deliberate.

I agree.

This argument doesn't really wash as it also applies if a customer purchases a ticket via another means in advance, for example online. Why is it possible to purchase in advance by one means but not another?

It's only "not possible" by one means because staff are breaking the rules. But they're staff, so of course they get away with it.

Is it not up to the guard or revenue staff to check validity, or are they incapable of doing this nowadays?

Absolutely. But some ticket booking staff dream of being like Basil Fawlty and want to have a go at revenue protection too, despite it clearly not being their job. They break all sorts of rules knowing full well that they're going to get away with it. Of course when they become customers of another industry they don't expect the sort of treatment they dished out of course, they expect to be treated with respect. That's because it's only the rail industry that treats customers so disgracefully on a regular basis. It's become routine for some of them.

 

[Helvellyn]

Is it not up to the guard or revenue staff to check validity, or are they incapable of doing this nowadays?

No many of us are fully capable of doing this part of our job, and do so. Strangely enough though we seem to get regular criticism when we rightly pull people up for having an invalid ticket.

Of course, it's okay for some staff to break the rules isn't it? :roll: But when customers do, the same staff who break the rules throw a major wobbler.

The OP's question was about tickets bought at a TVM before 10:00 being subject to a minimum fare, even if the passenger is travelling after 10:00 when the minimum fare does not apply. Now as this question was also about an unstaffed station, why have you begun a rant attacking rail staff in general (again)?

As a railway employee I find that highly insulting to the professionalism the vast majority of my colleagues demonstrate, especially as so many of us do go that extra mile to help our passengers. It's why I particularly posted two solutions to the problem that the OP (and others) could use, attempting to make my response objective at the same time.

Yes, it would be great if the S&B machines did offer the tickets before 10:00 without the minimum fare. Believe it or not some TOCs are looking at how they can do this, and other upgrades to make the TVMs more customer friendly. Yet to do this, from what I understand, they want the customer to make an acknowledgement (by pressing yes or no on screen) that they accept certain conditions. I.e. buy a GroupSave ticket on a TVM - aceept that the group must travel out and back together. Buy a 16-25 railcard discounted ticket before 10:00 - accept that if no minimum fare is applied you'll be travelling after 10:00, and confirm that you do have the railcard with you.

 

[yorkie]

The OP's question was about tickets bought at a TVM before 10:00 being subject to a minimum fare, even if the passenger is travelling after 10:00 when the minimum fare does not apply. Now as this question was also about an unstaffed station, why have you begun a rant attacking rail staff in general (again)?

See post 8 by JonMorris0844.

I have no complaints about my local station. But I hear lots of horror stories about poor customer service and they are totally unacceptable.

I said "some staff", you refer to "the vast majority", but surely you can't deny that some do act in the way I described. Perhaps everyone should try to get these people to either clean up their act or go elsewhere, to protect the name of, as you say, the vast majority? If everyone in the industry had a go at people who give poor customer service, if managers did more to prevent it (e.g. by mystery shopping), then the industry wouldn't have such a bad reputation for customer service.

 

[Death]

Referring swiftly back to the OP...

You are at an unstaffed station, with a ticket machine. You have a 16-25 Railcard. There is a scheduled service for 1000. In fact it's running a couple of minutes early standing at the platform now, and will probably leave bang on 10 if not a few seconds before.

Unfortunately, the ticket machine is dumb and wants to charge a £12.00 minimum fare to use your railcard because technically it's not 1000 yet. But if you board the train you won't be able to buy a discounted ticket because the station has a ticket machine. So how do you exercise the use of your railcard? Hopefully the Train Manager would be understanding but you can't guarantee that...

I actually ran into this very problem at Blackwater a few weeks ago, when I was trying to catch the 09:56 to Wokingham.
As my journey commenced after 09:30 (And definitely didn't arrive in Reading before ten! ) I knew that I should be able to get a railcard discount on a standard CDR - But the TVM was only offering me a choice of "Pay £12.00 railcard fare" or "Pay non-discounted standard fare". :roll:

Thankfully I mentioned the issue to the Guard before boarding (And had also mentioned the apparent fault to FGW control via the platform help-point) and he gave me permission to board and purchase on the train...And a lot of Guards will generally be happy to do this, as long as ye remember to speak to them and obtain permission before boarding!

As for the issue of machine programming: I've experienced this problem with machines run by a number of TOCs across the country, and I've got a feeling that it's a generic bug in the TVM operating system that's either been "forgotton" about, or was a "bug" that AToC deliberateley had engineered into the OS to try and ching less knowlegable passengers more than they ought to be. :roll:

In fairness though; FGWs machines at least warn ye if your Railcard fare is more expensive than the standard no-card fare at that time, giving ye the opportunity to change thy mind! 8)

 

[Krispo]

I've noticed some on Merseyside tend to have the "clocks" on the machines set to run around 8 minutes fast, presumably for the purpose of railcard holders etc.

 

[Death]

I've noticed some on Merseyside tend to have the "clocks" on the machines set to run around 8 minutes fast, presumably for the purpose of railcard holders etc.

Not impossible, I'd say...But from what I've observed, most of them keep synchronised using the internet time function in Windows XP.

...Of course, I'm assuming they use Windows XP as the base OS. Looks and feels like it whenever I use one, though.

 

[Helvellyn]

Referring swiftly back to the OP... I actually ran into this very problem at Blackwater a few weeks ago, when I was trying to catch the 09:56 to Wokingham.
As my journey commenced after 09:30 (And definitely didn't arrive in Reading before ten! ) I knew that I should be able to get a railcard discount on a standard CDR - But the TVM was only offering me a choice of "Pay £12.00 railcard fare" or "Pay non-discounted standard fare". :roll:

The machine was doing the correct thing - the minimum fare applies until 10:00, not until 09:30. It's the time the journey commences too that counts.

 

[theblackwatch]

No many of us are fully capable of doing this part of our job, and do so. Strangely enough though we seem to get regular criticism when we rightly pull people up for having an invalid ticket.

I have absolutely not problem with people being pulled up for being invalid - after all, when I have paid for my ticket I see no reason why others should get away with it! I don't think you can expect a passenger to be happy though if you do catch them and they are bound to criticise you in some way, such as calling you a 'jobsworth' - they are hardly going to say to you "oh that was good of you to spot it, normally I get away with this"!

As a railway employee I find that highly insulting to the professionalism the vast majority of my colleagues demonstrate, especially as so many of us do go that extra mile to help our passengers. It's why I particularly posted two solutions to the problem that the OP (and others) could use, attempting to make my response objective at the same time.

Not just confined to the railway industry, but everywhere when customer service is involved, people will remember their bad experiences - even if there are only a small number of staff who are involved. I still haven't forgotten the occasion around 5 years ago when I went to Glasgow. I had a through AP ticket from my home station to Glasgow, but unfortunately, my train to York (which was the 'recommenced service') was late and I missed my booked train to Glasgow. I arrived just in time for me to make the next service (with around 1 min to spare). Sadly though, Mr Gripper on the GNER service did not like me being on a different train to that I was booked, and wanted to charge me for a full price ticket, even when I explained what had happened. I could write several paragraphs about the long discussion iwhich went on for about 15 minutes, but will just say that in the end he decided to 'let me off' on this occasion when I said I would get off at Darlington after he had told me I must do that or pay up. It is instances like this which passengers will remember. The railway needs to get rid of people like this who see their uniform as power.

On the other side of the coin there are good staff - I remember being in Devon earlier this year, and a guard telling a group that he was going to sell them a different ticket to what they had asked for, as it would actually save them 10p! It did amuse me, and I'm sure that even though it was a miniscule amount, the passengers were left with a good impression.

 

[John @ home]

I was trying to catch the 09:56 to Wokingham.
As my journey commenced after 09:30 (And definitely didn't arrive in Reading before ten! ) I knew that I should be able to get a railcard discount on a standard CDR - But the TVM was only offering me a choice of "Pay £12.00 railcard fare" or "Pay non-discounted standard fare".

I don't quite understand this. A standard CDR Blackwater - Wokingham costs £3.50 and the restrictions are

National Fares Manual NFM 04
Restriction : L8
OUTWARD TRAVEL
By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 0915
RETURN TRAVEL
By any train

Whether a Railcard discount is available for the 0956 train on a weekday depends on the type of Railcard.

16-25 Railcard
A £12 minimum fare applies for journeys made at or before 10am Monday to Friday excluding Advance Fares.This minimum fare does not apply on Public Holidays or during July and August.
http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/buy-16-25-railcard/railcard-terms-conditions
So a 16-25 Railcard discount is not available for the 0956 train.

Disabled Person's Railcard
No time restrictions are shown in the Terms & Conditions, so a Disabled Person's Railcard discount is available for the 0956 train.

Family and Friends Railcard
The Railcard discount isn't available on tickets when journeys are made wholly within the London and South East area (including all South West Trains services to and from London Waterloo) on morning peak period services Monday to Friday (not including Public Holidays). The times of morning off-peak services do vary by route and are normally related to the availability of Off-Peak Day.
http://www.familyandfriends-railcard.co.uk/buy-family-friends-railcard/railcard-terms-conditions
A CDR Blackwater - Wokingham is available from 0915, so a Family and Friends Railcard discount is available for the 0956 train.

Network Railcard
Discounted adult fares are subject to a £13 minimum fare, Monday to Friday, except Public Holidays. The minimum fare does not apply at weekends.
http://www.railcard.co.uk/network/tickets-types-min-fares#Minimum_fares
So a Network Railcard discount is not available on the £3.50 CDR Blackwater - Wokingham fare on weekdays.

Senior Railcard
The Railcard discount isn’t available on tickets for travel during the morning rush hour (peak time), Monday to Friday (not including Public Holidays) when journeys are made wholly within the London and South East area. The times of morning off-peak services do vary by route and are normally related to the availability of Off-Peak Day tickets.
http://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/buy-senior-railcard/railcard-terms-conditions
A CDR Blackwater - Wokingham is available from 0915, so a Senior Railcard discount is available for the 0956 train.

 

[Death]

I don't quite understand this. A standard CDR Blackwater - Wokingham costs £3.50 and the restrictions are:

Restriction : L8
OUTWARD TRAVEL
By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 0915

Whether a Railcard discount is available for the 0956 train on a weekday depends on the type of Railcard.

Hmm...If that's the case, then it looks like I really ought to refresh myself on the railcard rules before I next travel! hock:

From my understanding, if Avantix said "By any train after 09:15" then that applied to tickets of that type, for journeys commencing after 09:15, bought with any (Or no) railcard. Given that I enter my railcard type (A Y-P) into Avantix when looking up fares, I'd expect it to show the correct fare levels for that railcard at various stages during the day.

Reaching for NFM03 (I havn't sorted NFM04 out yet) for some output, here's what I get offered for that journey, using next Monday as the date of travel...My fare highlighted in Blue:

BAW > WKM - Route: ANY PERMITTED - On 28/12/2009.

  FDR   8.30     GWR
  FCR   5.50 L8  GWR
  FDS   4.15     GWR
  SDR   2.50     GWR
  SDS   2.40     GWR
[color=#0000ff]  CDR   2.30 L8  GWR[/color]
  CDS   2.25 L8  GWR

...Surely if any of those fares are incorrect like ye suggest (I.E: An SDR with a Y-P would have to be £12.00 as CDRs are issued before the end of the Y-P min fare period) then shouldn't Avantix display the Railcard minimum rate insted of the ticket cost?

 

[Mojo]

From my understanding, if Avantix said "By any train after 09:15" then that applied to tickets of that type, for journeys commencing after 09:15, bought with any (Or no) railcard. Given that I enter my railcard type (A Y-P) into Avantix when looking up fares, I'd expect it to show the correct fare levels for that railcard at various stages during the day.

It does; if the minimum fare applies, when you double click on it, it says

Minimum Fare:£    12.00

at the bottom of the left-hand panel.

 

[WillPS]

To be frank, the interface on all the TVMs I've seen has been shocking - the MML ones weren't great but the new EMT ones are dreadful. They need to learn some serious lessons in Human/Computer Interaction - it's really tricky to work out what's what; nothing is explained.

The newer ones only have a single printer, so they take FOREVER to print out even just a standard return. I still don't understand why the machines cant process Electron/Solo - they're wired in, so online authorisation shouldn't be an issue.

 

[ian13]

How is the TVM meant to know if the 09:31 is delayed though? A twenty minute delay could mean someone buys a discounted ticket at 09:35 and uses it on a train it's not valid on.

Maybe we should just assume innocence.

Put a button that says "travelling on a train scheduled after 1000?" and if chosen, believe them and sell the ticket. It really annoys me when staff at stations won't believe that you won't sneak on the 958 (Wakefield Westgate comes to mind) and refuse to sell you the ticket.

If the customer then goes on to use it after clear warnings then excess them or prosecute, but don't just assume everyone is guilty.

(As an aside, I believe railcards are valid 'after 1000', regardless of when the train is scheduled?)

 

[yorkie]

Maybe we should just assume innocence.

Put a button that says "travelling on a train scheduled after 1000?" and if chosen, believe them and sell the ticket. It really annoys me when staff at stations won't believe that you won't sneak on the 958 (Wakefield Westgate comes to mind) and refuse to sell you the ticket.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/simple_fares.html
You could print this and show them where it says "buy any time" under Off Peak. If they still refuse, get the name and details and write a letter to Customer Services. If still no joy, contact Passenger Focus and also write to ATOC to inform them that they are either falsely advertising availability or one of their members is refusing to adhere to ATOCs rules.

Perhaps if threats of prosecution existed on both sides, then they'd be less likely to break the rules. Hmm...

(As an aside, I believe railcards are valid 'after 1000', regardless of when the train is scheduled?)

It's not quite a case of railcards being valid or not. The after 10:00 rule applies to Y-P railcard minimum fares 10 months of the year, 5 days a week, and it is a time restriction so it doesn't matter when the train is scheduled.

 

[jon0844]

I think FCC TVMs will still sell a more expensive ticket (with the minimum fare) than you might be able to get by NOT using your rail card.. and there won't be a warning.

As someone with a rail card may assume that it gives them a discount, some may not realise the fare is more expensive than NOT using it.

If machines are updated to either warn, or (as would be more sensible) automatically switch to the cheaper standard ticket then everyone would be happy.

You should also be able to buy tickets a little earlier and agree with an on-screen disclaimer to abide by the rules (e.g. travel after 0930, 1000 or whatever) and have the tickets marked as such - so if stopped, you're busted. Ironically, you can buy any ticket you want the night before, but not in the morning.

Why wouldn't someone intending to defraud the railway simply buy their cheap ticket on the journey home? Most people simply won't because their ticket would be invalid and they'd be treated as having no ticket. Why would you pay to have an invalid ticket if there were checks in place before, during or after your journey?

 

[mallard]

Why wouldn't someone intending to defraud the railway simply buy their cheap ticket on the journey home? Most people simply won't because their ticket would be invalid and they'd be treated as having no ticket. Why would you pay to have an invalid ticket if there were checks in place before, during or after your journey?

It's not just people intending to defraud; it's pretty easy to do that by accident. I don't think I've ever been asked what time I'll be travelling when buying non-Advance tickets from a ticket office.

 

[Death]

It does; if the minimum fare applies, when you double click on it, it says

Minimum Fare: £12.00

at the bottom of the left-hand panel.

Ahh - I've just done that and see what ye mean there...Although for different ticket types, NFM03 seems to show different minimum fares as well. hock:

Rte: BAW -> WKM. Type: Std day returns.
  SDR     2.50      Y-P min fare: 16.00
  CDR     2.40 L8   Y-P min fare:  8.00

Looks like I had a bit of a whoops moment with the rules in that case, but overpaying by £1.10 on my next FGW fare would set that right...Wouldn't it?

It's not just people intending to defraud; it's pretty easy to do that by accident.

Exactly how I would consider my incorrect use of the Y-P discount on the CDR mentioned above, which I would put down as a genuine mistake caused by the über-daft complexity of the fares system.

What I can't understand is that 75 years ago, the fares system was a lot more sensible - Fares being based on a cost per mile based on total line distance travelled. So if ye knew that a 3rd class ticket cost 1d/mile (1p/mile), and ye were doing a return journey to a station 10 miles away, ye'd be able to calculate the total fare at 1s 8d (20p) without once having to refer to any kind of NFM or other database. 8)

Why we can't have the same practice used in todays ticketing systems, I honestly don't know... :roll:

 

[johnb]

In those days the fares system *had* to be remedially simple, as there were no computers/calculators/etc.

Now that it's possible to set fares according to demand, it's obviously better to do that rather than clinging to a relic of Victorian technology.