-
We're pleased to advise that our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk, which helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase, has had some recent improvements, including PlusBus support. Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
The 'hijacking' of St Pancras by HS1 and the resultant long walk from Euston Road
- Thread starter 38Cto15E
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
St Pancras was hijacked from the MML with HS1, it was supposed to be a Cathederal for the MML, not HS1, and don't start to mention the long walk nowadays.
I would much rather have a shortish walk through a beautiful building, with high speed connections to Kent and Europe, with excellent facilities, than have the dump that existed before.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Those are my sentiments too, though it is >20 years since I was on St Pancras.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
Thanks for the info Gents, St Pancras was hijacked from the MML with HS1, it was supposed to be a Cathederal for the MML, not HS1, and don't start to mention the long walk nowadays.
I'm puzzled by how an intending passenger should reach the MML platforms from the Euston Road.
If you walk down to what seems to be the main entrance (the protruding portico) at the furthest end, on entering and after a short distance one has to turn left (i.e., walking in the opposite directions to the platforms) to reach an escalator or lift to reach the upper floor and return towards the platform. One's first encounter on this journey is two escalators to the upper level, but both are 'down' ones. I can't see why one cannot be up, saving a round trip-walk of a couple of hundred metres.
I've tried walking through the glass doors about half-way down, but these lead through the Eurostar area, packed with passengers and their ample luggage. There seems to be no attempt to keep a walkway free through this area, and one seems to be regarded as an intruder.
I now, from experience, accept that I must turn off the Euston Road 10 minutes before my intended train's departure time to be sure of catching it . Despite the very short walk from the barrier to the train, the barriers seem to be locked at least 2 minutes before departure.
And, of course, when one reaches the MML concourse itself there are no facilities apart from a few benches. It gives a strong impression that the station is far too grand and important to be bothered with passengers to and from the shires...
FlippyFF
Member
Why not walk up the road on the other side of the station and enter where the entrance/exit to the taxi rank is (on the opposite side to the Eurostar entrance)?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
That's my preferred route if approaching from the west. From the east, if steps are OK you can use the ones that go up to the forecourt in the south east corner and through the big arch. This brings you out on the top level with a relatively uncongested route past the statues and Carluccio's (if that's still there) to the MML platforms.
1) Both escalators are 'down' because they are the first ones reached when alighting from an MML train, so having only one down causes congestion when a train load of passengers turn up.
2) Best way from Euston Road is either:
-Use the entrance into the top level of the Sub Surface ticket hall from Euston Rd (underneath the old taxi ramp at the front), head left through that and then round into the main shopping arcade, or
-Head up the road on the west side of the station, then turn in the first entrance on the right (near the head of the taxi queue) and head into the main shopping arcade from there, or
-Walk up the old taxi rank and in past the meeting point statue / Betjaman Arms / Carluccios
That seems a pretty fair summary — the impression of the Midland facilities is almost that they were stuck on as an afterthought, in the simplest and cheapest form possible. And look how it's the station inadequacies that now even dictate specially short carriages in the new trains to serve it.
Additionally, passengers coming up the escalators were causing accidents when they stopped at the top to look at the departure boards.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
There are things that could probably have been done better in the layout, particularly bringing the escalators closer to the MML barrier with possibly some lateral ones going towards the Tube and KX, but I'm not sure how else the overall layout could have been done considering the constraints of the route towards Stratford and the train length.
At the time St Pancras was designed, the standard length for UK domestic stock was 23m. That question should perhaps be re-phrased as "why did someone decide to increase that to 25m on other routes?"...
Fair points. But there was debate at the time over just how the split between the Midland line and the CTRL requirement would be managed and I suspect decisions may have been taken when traffic expectations for the Midland were on the low side whilst those for Eurostar were still wildly high. (Are there still provisionally four paths an hour each way through the tunnel for EST?) And then the British habit of building for the "now" rather than allowing any element of future-proofing (as railway construction in other countries still seems able to do) gave us what we have.
The point about the length of stock is an interesting one. You will remember, as I do, when we moved to the 23 m for the Mk3s, and how that represented a major change from past British practice, but how on the whole its introduction was managed very smoothly. Whilst one question might indeed have been, "Why did someone decide to increase that to 25 m on other routes?", another way of asking it might be, "Why did someone design platforms so tight for length that they wouldn't be able to deal with even a small increase in vehicle-length — i.e. no future-proofing?" Or did no-one stage any brainstorming about future possible train-configurations? Either way, can it really be desirable to have one fleet of the 800 series as effectively non-standard?
Err - not sure how you can say that St P isn’t future proofed for Eurostar future expansion.
And has been said repeatedly, the MML side of St P has more than enough capacity to deal with the maximum number of long distance services it will ever see (6 an hour, and I wouldn’t bank on that for the foreseeable future).
My understanding is that the final layout was essentially set in aspic prior to privatisation, though it was intended that Platform 5 would be usable by both MML and Eurostar services - at least until someone had the bright idea of using the domestic side for the champagne bar.
That was, of course, prior to Midland Mainline introducing the Turbostars and going to 4tph as far as Leicester, so at that time four platforms would have been sufficient for forseeable future demand.
Also, where does 'future proofing' become needlessly spending tens / hundreds of millions of taxpayers money on construction that may well be pointless. Passive provision for potential future schemes at relatively low cost seems like an excellent idea, as does retaining land that may be needed in the future, but adding extra platforms in St P (or even space for additional platforms) would have meant buying additional land (which doesn't really exist without demolition), and building a significantly larger station, as well as a much bigger throat. From what I see, the International and SE side of the station are equally deserving of space, so the platform split seems quite reasonable, if anything it was future proofed to allow for a little more expansion on Eurostar than domestic, which seems a sensible decision, even in hindsight.
The main capacity issue on the Midland side is the ridiculously long turnaround times of some trains, caused by the wide variety of stock in use - once the service moves over to an all 810 fleet, this issue will disappear.
adamedwards
Member
- Joined
- 4 Apr 2016
- Messages
- 796
The St Pancras long walk depends on where you start from. My local trains arrive at Kings Cross in platforms 9-11, so the new Midland Main Line platforms are a vastly shorter walk than in the old days when you had to go right down to the Euston Road frontage.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
Thanks, I didn't know that was possible.
In the days before rebuilding, there was an exit for taxis from that side of the station that might similarly have provided a quicker entry, but London taxi drivers clearly took offence at pedestrians 'invading' their space and tended to drive at you. I'll give it a try next time.
Fair comment, but stopping at the top of the escalator seems to occur at every London termini, and possibly would happen wherever the up escalator is situated.
---
In my opinion, there's an interesting comparison to be made between the cost and benefits of reducing trains journey times (i.e. costs vs increased revenue because of faster journey) at, for example, Market Harborough, with the slower journey time the escalator layout - and the other features I've mentioned - incurs. If you rely on the axiom that faster journeys increase revenue (to justify investment) you must accept that the converse applies.
Depends on:
A) Where the end destination of passengers is - quite a few won't be inconvenienced by walking further to get to an escalator as they're going that way anyway (e.g. to get to the Circle Line or Euston Road), and
B) Whether a longer walk actually ends up quicker because passengers are more dispersed and thus ends up less congested.
This seems somewhat at variance with the continual double-banking of services in one platform, leading to the inability to add vehicles to services because you then can't get two trains into one platform, and there aren't any spare platforms.
My understanding is that this is to cater for those where their service is double-banked at the far end of a platform, and the inability of being able to give staff more than one set of instructions dependent on the circumstance of where the train is.
What the (admirable) transition to turn-up-and-go long distance service frequency has overlooked is that, unlike the old days when services were only hourly or less, and people turned up in good time beforehand, now they present in more of a steady stream.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
My comment referred to the fact that, when walking towards the barriers to join a train, one has to walk in the opposite direction, away from the barriers on the lower level, pass the down escalators, walk still further away from the barriers; then, finally, use an up escalator to join the upper level and walk back towards the barriers, passing the top of the down escalators on the way.
Any congestion is a result of the constrained area between the barriers and the escalators; this circulating area must be the smallest of any London terminus, and doesn't compare favourably with many stations outside London either.
Novern Uproar
Member
I tend to agree with the original poster. Its a fine looking station both inside & out, but following the revamp Midland Main Line passengers definitely got the short end of the straw.
However, can't see anything changing anytime soon. (aside from possibly fewer MML services)
One of my memories of the "old" St Pancras - early 90s - is how they had string netting across the concourse at about 10 feet high, presumably to cut down on the number of pigeons roosting there. Unfortunately the mesh was quite fine and apart from normal pigeon by products one of the pigeons had died and decomposed so you had this skeleton a few feet above your head.
Indeed the old station was rather ancient and need of modernisation, would the amount of money spent to modernise and upgrade the station to what it is today have been spent for purely the Midland line, I think the answer to that is no. I would agree however that the Midland part of the station looks like an temporary station waiting for something better to replace it at a later date.
DerekC
Established Member
It was a dump because BR never spent any money on it, being the poor relation of London termini.
Western Sunset
Established Member
The route up the slope from Euston Road and through the archway was invariably very, very quiet. That was even before Covid...
Also as has been said repeatedly, this is a function of the current service pattern and rolling stock. That all changes in May, and again when the new hybrid fleet is in full service.
I can recall being in there one winter Sunday afternoon in probably the late 1980s, and it had a distinct charm. There were a couple of Peaks shut down at the stops, a 317 spending the weekend, and quite a few passengers around. The subdued lighting went perfectly with it snowing outside, and a particularly well-done Christmas tree by the barriers. All the concessions and refreshments seemed open, you could understand what John Betjeman saw in it all.
One think I dislike about the current station is painting the great overall roof structure with a pale blue tint on the inside. Makes it look like something from Disneyland. And as for the yuppie-era useless champagne bar ...
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 7 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 30,700
Looking like a separate add-on was a specific requirement of the heritage lobby. LCR were not allowed to obstruct the view of the main shed from Hampstead Heath.
I think they would have done better in that respect with simple low-profile platform canopies, rather than a huge overbearing flat raft. It certainly obstructs the view of the shed from the Eurostar curving round into make its entrance into London. Less fumes too. It's almost like the architects did it in a fit of pique after being told they couldn't have some grand but ludicrous post-modern design of their own.
- Status