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the Increasingly Frustrating Thameslink

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Bald Rick

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To get into London on time in the mornings is an unexpected bonus, with arrivals at St Pancras being routinely 5-6 mins late and then have the added delay caused by the crush of passengers exiting and entering the train. A 3-4 minute dwell time at St Pancras is not unusual.

Suggest you get a new watch. 3-4 min dwells at St Pancras are very definitely unusual, I can't remember this ever happening just due to passenger numbers.

And whilst 1-2 min delay in arriving St Pancras from the north is fairly common, 5-6 min being 'routine' is just poppycock.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have computers with solid state drives that can boot in 7 seconds. And a lot more crap gets loaded on my computer than I'd imagine in a train with a super optimised and stripped down to basics setup.

Yes but was your computer assembled in Derby?
 
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RailUK Forums

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I've noticed that a number of night-time services have been cancelled due to "a member of train crew being unavailable". What a pathetic excuse for trains which are infrequent (for London) and operate at times when passengers would not want to hang around at a station for too long.

I don't recall night-time services being cancelled on an almost nightly basis when the franchise was under First's control.

You can click here to see the scale of the cancellations: http://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/H...etSpr=RT&MxScDu=&MxSvAg=10&MnScCt=2&MxArCl=50
 
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ComUtoR

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I've noticed that a number of night-time services have been cancelled due to "a member of train crew being unavailable". What a pathetic excuse for trains which are infrequent (for London) and operate at times when passengers would not want to hang around at a station for too long.

Sorry about that. I'll make sure the member of train crew doesn't have a last minute family emergency that could not have been avoided. Of course the cover staff member could have gone out but they went sick last minute and had to be rushed to hospital. Sorry for your inconvenience but life got in the way.
 

Tetchytyke

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But is that's what happening? Really? Truthfully? Given how reliant First were on voluntary overtime and given that GoVia won't have had time (even with the will) to hire more drivers?
 

Captain Chaos

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Why is it that most reasons are always palmed off as "pathetic excuses"? I mean, it's not as though we're making this all up. We actually do our best to find out the exact cause and tell you what we can. Why is it a pathetic excuse.
 

EM2

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And whilst 1-2 min delay in arriving St Pancras from the north is fairly common, 5-6 min being 'routine' is just poppycock.
There would be people having some serious conniptions at that! We start to worry if something doesn't start moving thirty seconds after it should.
EDIT - I should add that there are a few services that are booked for a longer dwell at STP, I'll have to check but I know there are a few four-minute ones.
 
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Tetchytyke

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If you're seeing the same trains cancelled repeatedly due to a lack of traincrew then that is "pathetic", as in a "pathetic service". Occasionally you'll get it because the flu's gone through the depot like a dose of salts, but more often it is because the TOC are over-reliant on rest day working and don't have enough staff to operate a service without it. We've seen that plenty of times on Capital Connect in the last few years and, even with the best will in the world, GoVia haven't had enough time to fix it.
 

Tetchytyke

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I have a feeling there's going to be a repeat of the driver strike under FCC eventually.

Almost certainly. GoVia have a long history of trying to squeeze staff costs right down to the bone and we've seen similar "strikes" in the past at London Midland and SouthEastern.

No driver has to work their rest day and I don't blame them if they don't want to. I blame the TOC for being reliant on it.
 

W230

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But is that's what happening? Really? Truthfully? Given how reliant First were on voluntary overtime and given that GoVia won't have had time (even with the will) to hire more drivers?
I'm not exactly sure tbh. All I know if that every day there seem to be lists and lists of jobs that need covering. Was talking to another driver the other day who couldn't work his rest day as he would have been breaking Hidden due to the sheer number he was doing!

I'm hoping the 700's will be more reliable. I think i'm beginning to really hold Bombardier with serious disregard. I already find myself unimpressed at their whinging and the political games that they play as soon as a contract goes elsewhere. I was thinking the other day that they pretty much boss the SE now anyway with 357, 375, 376, 377, 378, 379, 387s. Not sure what SWT drivers think of the Siemens units they drive but I for one am looking forward to driving the 700. It can't be as rubbish as the Bombardier stuff I get most days.

Like last week when I had to Aux off/on at because the doors wouldn't open. Again. 13 minute delay as a result. You can aux on a 319 in seconds! :lol:
 

FlippyFF

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It's funny how modern technology usually makes everything so much faster, but 377s take ages to change over and reboot certain systems. It's quite amazing it takes so long. I have computers with solid state drives that can boot in 7 seconds. And a lot more crap gets loaded on my computer than I'd imagine in a train with a super optimised and stripped down to basics setup.

I wonder how long the 700s will take to swap?

I was on the (late) 06:20 St Pancras to Brighton 12 car 377 this morning, at Farringdon I think we did the quickest AC/DC change ever. There was the familiar absence of noise as the air con shut down but within moments it was on again, the doors closed and we were on our way. The on-board PIS didn't even reset, just carried on listing the calling points as normal.
 
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Suggest you get a new watch. 3-4 min dwells at St Pancras are very definitely unusual, I can't remember this ever happening just due to passenger numbers.

And whilst 1-2 min delay in arriving St Pancras from the north is fairly common, 5-6 min being 'routine' is just poppycock.

The 07.30 Bedford - Brighton is almost NEVER on time at St Pancras. Scheduled 08.20 but usually arrives 08.22 or 23 and departs 08.25 or 08.26. You should try using it every day for the last 7 years. It is then invariably delayed waiting for the preceding train to clear Farringdon. Then hold your breath as the "state of the art" electronics deals with the power changeover. Will everything work on DC power? Those added three or four minutes means getting a later tube at Blackfriars and then missing a Lewisham train on the DLR at Bank. This means I have to wait for a Woolwich Arsenal train to leave Bank (half-full as usual) and wait another 3 mins or so for the next rammed Lewisham train. Altogether an approximately 10 - 15 minute late arrival at work.

I know I must sound like the grumpiest of grumpy commuters but why is there the need for so much temperamental and brittle technology on trains that can mean the cancellation of a service because the computer in on unit won't talk to the computer in another unit?
 

muddythefish

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How is it going to work when the Thameslink 2000 (sic) trains finally start running ? Isn't it something like 20 trains tph though a 2-track central section - it only needs one hold-up anywhere and the whole timetable will be chaos.
 

Bald Rick

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The 07.30 Bedford - Brighton is almost NEVER on time at St Pancras. Scheduled 08.20 but usually arrives 08.22 or 23 and departs 08.25 or 08.26. You should try using it every day for the last 7 years. It is then invariably delayed waiting for the preceding train to clear Farringdon. Then hold your breath as the "state of the art" electronics deals with the power changeover. Will everything work on DC power? Those added three or four minutes means getting a later tube at Blackfriars and then missing a Lewisham train on the DLR at Bank. This means I have to wait for a Woolwich Arsenal train to leave Bank (half-full as usual) and wait another 3 mins or so for the next rammed Lewisham train. Altogether an approximately 10 - 15 minute late arrival at work.

I know I must sound like the grumpiest of grumpy commuters but why is there the need for so much temperamental and brittle technology on trains that can mean the cancellation of a service because the computer in on unit won't talk to the computer in another unit?

Well I haven't used it for seven years, just the 11, I probably catch it 20% of the time, and went for it today. That train is timed 17.5 mins for St Albans to St Pancras and indeed rarely makes it as there is no recovery time in the schedule, unlike most TL services. It does however routinely leave St Albans on time, and is very reliable in that respect, and generally makes up time through the core. Rarely do I find it more than a couple down at Blackfriars.

But if you want one on time at Blackfriars, get the 0712 Bedford. It is reliably 2 mins late from St Albans Mon- Thurs, and routinely on time by Blackfriars. Except today when for some bizarre reason it was run fast from Bedford!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How is it going to work when the Thameslink 2000 (sic) trains finally start running ? Isn't it something like 20 trains tph though a 2-track central section - it only needs one hold-up anywhere and the whole timetable will be chaos.

That's easy. No hold ups.

More seriously, the core will cope with everything running a few minutes down (eg autumn) or one / two trains running out of course, which covers about 95% of disruption scenarios.

For the other 5% there will be specific plans for each train. And rarely does any major disruption not involve cancellations, which of course makes space in the timetable for something else running late.

I am grossly oversimplifying, but it will be ok, I promise!
 
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Mutant Lemming

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This morning was a bit of a mess though - the trains were all out of order, so people were getting the stopping trains because it was quicker. Passengers at Radlett/Elstree were waiting for 2 or 3 trains before they could board.

For example:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/basic/LEA/2014/12/15/0735

...making it impossible for people further down the line to get on. The missus had to let four trains go before she could get on one. Maybe it's time to consider LO for the inner suburbans.
 
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bramling

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Well I haven't used it for seven years, just the 11, I probably catch it 20% of the time, and went for it today. That train is timed 17.5 mins for St Albans to St Pancras and indeed rarely makes it as there is no recovery time in the schedule, unlike most TL services. It does however routinely leave St Albans on time, and is very reliable in that respect, and generally makes up time through the core. Rarely do I find it more than a couple down at Blackfriars.

But if you want one on time at Blackfriars, get the 0712 Bedford. It is reliably 2 mins late from St Albans Mon- Thurs, and routinely on time by Blackfriars. Except today when for some bizarre reason it was run fast from Bedford!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That's easy. No hold ups.

More seriously, the core will cope with everything running a few minutes down (eg autumn) or one / two trains running out of course, which covers about 95% of disruption scenarios.

For the other 5% there will be specific plans for each train. And rarely does any major disruption not involve cancellations, which of course makes space in the timetable for something else running late.

I am grossly oversimplifying, but it will be ok, I promise!

I don't think anyone doubts the core should be able to handle the frequency of service, possibly subject to some bedding in of passenger behaviours. What is less convincing is the effect on the wider railway of trains from three different networks all converging on one section. Despite protestations to the contrary I have thusfar seen nothing which suggests any serious mitigation is being carried out - it's not difficult to see why as the cost of sorting out locations like Welwyn and the Cambridge branch are prohibitive. If two trains converge on the core from the south at the same time, one of them is going to be delayed, then having lost its path going north either it or other trains will be likely to accrue delay.

London Underground is the expert in running intensive rail services in this country. Funny how, in the 1970s, they went to the expense of separating out the Bakerloo Line into two separate lines because the effect of running multiple services down one 'core' caused many problems - this was with a signalling system optimised for 30 tph. More recently, the Northern Line separates out its service pattern during the morning peak, and in the future plans to further segregate the service in order to deliver better throughput of trains and better reliability. The Northern Line is a simpler railway than Thameslink, as nearly all the junctions are fully grade-separated, and all trains stop at all stations and don't mesh in with other services (unlike Thameslink interfacing with Southern, EMT, East Coast, freight, etc).

It does amuse me that on the one hand people are saying don't worry Thameslink has loads of resilience built in for example many emergency crossovers in the 'core' section, then on the other hand when someone suggests using them it turns out they can't really be used as using them in normal service causes too many issues due to the intensity of the service!

If a train breaks down in the core then that could happen on any railway (Crossrail is also vulnerable in this respect).The difference is this will now affect a large proportion of the train service to many destinations. Currently, a shut down on the Cambridge branch will affect that, but places like Hitchin or Cambridge have alternative services. Likewise the main line is largely 4-tracks, plus the Hertford Loop, so the effect is less dramatic.

I remain convinced the Thameslink Programme will have to be revised after completion, with a more modest service through the 'core'. By all means let's have some services, but keep half the service running in to King's Cross so there are fewer imported delays and more resilience if things go wrong elsewhere.

I used Thameslink for 7 years, it was always an unpleasant service to use as I found it was always subject to delay. It was the exception for northbound trains to depart King's Cross Thameslink on time. At certain times, especially straight after the AM peak, trains would be routinely anything from 5 to 20 minutes late. I don't use the service regularly now, however on occasions when I have it seems little better. These delays could be coped with because generally the 15-minute frequency meant it wasn't the end of the world, although with bad luck you could still end up with 30 - 40 minute gaps to a destination. The GN frequencies will be 30 minutes to destinations north of Hitchin. This frequency will be less tolerant of delays and extended intervals, especially with more people having to share the same platforms whilst waiting.
 
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Bald Rick

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Re comparison to the underground, see the Met line. Also RER line C, Munich S- Bahn, etc. it can be done.

If a train is out of path it will squeeze through by compressing headways either side to 2 mins, which will make 2 -3 trains slightly late. There is going to be recovery time on every service entering and leaving the core, plus effectively some in the core, so that will be regained before the trains delayed by reaction have got to Finsbury Park, Kentish Town, London Bridge or Elephant and Castle. The original train will run late.

If there are a succession of late running trains from one point of the compass, some will be turned back to make holes in the TT for what does run.

If everything is running late, then it will all run, late.

The crossovers etc in the core are for rescuing failed trains and to enable maintenance. They are not designed to run a (very) limited service except overnight.
 

Bishopstone

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I wouldn't want to be a commuter from Preston Park, Hassocks or Balcombe come 2018. Their stops are already sacrificed a great deal in the interests of service recovery, and if the core timetable doesn't work perfectly, such that many peak trains lose 5-10 minutes, I can see a great deal more skip-stopping to ensure the next northbound run from Brighton departs on time.

I agree with Bramling's sentiments, although the experts seem to feel our concerns are misguided, and I genuinely hope they are proved right and us, wrong.
 

bramling

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Re comparison to the underground, see the Met line. Also RER line C, Munich S- Bahn, etc. it can be done.

If a train is out of path it will squeeze through by compressing headways either side to 2 mins, which will make 2 -3 trains slightly late. There is going to be recovery time on every service entering and leaving the core, plus effectively some in the core, so that will be regained before the trains delayed by reaction have got to Finsbury Park, Kentish Town, London Bridge or Elephant and Castle. The original train will run late.

If there are a succession of late running trains from one point of the compass, some will be turned back to make holes in the TT for what does run.

If everything is running late, then it will all run, late.

The crossovers etc in the core are for rescuing failed trains and to enable maintenance. They are not designed to run a (very) limited service except overnight.


How are they going to turn back a train ex Peterborough crewed by a Three Bridges driver who is due to finish on that trip, with no other spare drivers available at the time?

The Met Line is no shining example, it's consistently one of the worst performing lines on the Underground. When even the slightest thing goes wrong, some or all of the southbound service detrains at Wembley Park (or, more inconveniently, Harrow) and reversed in Neasden Depot for 'right time' north. Thameslink, of course, won't have this facility as they won't be able to fill up King's Cross with short trips, the only other option would be Hornsey Depot which is not exactly a customer friendly option.

As you say, "If everything is running late, then it will all run, late." Once all these late trains hit the congested networks outside the core, chaos will result. It's already a problem on the Thameslink side waiting for out-of-path trains to make crossover movements in the Kentish Town, Radlett and Harpenden areas. Wait til the GN side comes on stream for the real rot to set in at junction conflict points like Potters Bar, Welwyn, Hitchin and the Cambridge branch, and don't forget the single-track sections north of Littleport, which will be getting double the service they get today! (the latter will *have* to be doubled at some point to maintain any kind of reliability).

Meanwhile, nice to know every train is going to get extra padding right through the core as far as Finsbury Park. In other words, when the service *is* on time, a slower journey. A journey from Hitchin to London or vice versa has already slipped by a few minutes since the mid-1990s thanks to defensive driving, TPWS and a more congested railway.

I can see Crossrail providing a reliable service - shorter end-to-end journey times, more consistent stopping patterns, and a narrower range of high-frequency services meshed together, all running through a purpose-built core combined with fewer interfaces with other networks. It's obvious Network Rail's equivalent will be massively inferior.
 
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jon0844

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Adding padding will indeed be annoying, but that's about the only way to ensure a good service most of the time.

The upside might be that if you're only going from the ECML to St Pancras, you'll quite often stand a chance of arriving early and then waiting (but, perhaps you'll also be held just outside the station, which will be rather frustrating even if you are early and can't really complain) but if you're going beyond, then you'll simply take longer all the time as it can't run early beyond that.

And going the other way, given the pinch point at WGC and the hard work over the years to manage the timetable (especially the peaks) with a series of WGC terminators and faster trains that skip the inner suburban stations, what happens when trains 'arrive late' on the ECML and now have to fit around the EC, GC and HT services - as well as the slows for Moorgate and any of the trains that will still run out of KGX in the peak?

Obviously the Intercity trains will have priority, so if trains lose too many paths, will they be turned around early or just have loads of stops dropped?

As has been said, and I've said many times, I want to be proven wrong. I want someone in 5 or 10 years to say to me 'You idiot, you kept moaning about how bad the service was going to be and it's been fine!' but I simply don't have that much faith!
 

bramling

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Adding padding will indeed be annoying, but that's about the only way to ensure a good service most of the time.

The upside might be that if you're only going from the ECML to St Pancras, you'll quite often stand a chance of arriving early and then waiting (but, perhaps you'll also be held just outside the station, which will be rather frustrating even if you are early and can't really complain) but if you're going beyond, then you'll simply take longer all the time as it can't run early beyond that.

And going the other way, given the pinch point at WGC and the hard work over the years to manage the timetable (especially the peaks) with a series of WGC terminators and faster trains that skip the inner suburban stations, what happens when trains 'arrive late' on the ECML and now have to fit around the EC, GC and HT services - as well as the slows for Moorgate and any of the trains that will still run out of KGX in the peak?

Obviously the Intercity trains will have priority, so if trains lose too many paths, will they be turned around early or just have loads of stops dropped?

As has been said, and I've said many times, I want to be proven wrong. I want someone in 5 or 10 years to say to me 'You idiot, you kept moaning about how bad the service was going to be and it's been fine!' but I simply don't have that much faith!

Personally, I'd have preferred to spend money on:

1) 4 tracks Digswell to Woolmer Green.
2) More and faster crossovers between slow and fast lines at various locations, with less restrictive signalling. (Some of this may happen over time).
3) Redoubling north of Littleport.
4) Complete segregation of the Hertford service, and segregation of the Welwyn service south of Alexandra Palace.
5) Extending KX Platforms 9-11 to 12 cars (Impossible now the new concourse fills the space).
6) More rolling stock to enable longer trains peak (and off-peak). In the current timetable there are still comparatively few 12-car trains, and plenty of 4-car trains which could be increased to 8 right through the day.
7) Slow lines uplifted to 100 mph where possible to give faster journey times.
8) 12-car platforms at Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North and Knebworth (where possible), and also lengthening at Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton to remove operating constraints.
9) A centre-siding or platform turnback facility at either Letchworth or Royston.
10) At least one convenient passing facility on the Cambridge line.

I suspect that Intercity trains will probably have to *not* get priority as part of any regulating strategy simply to give things any chance of working, but equally I can't envisage Virgin tolerating their trains being held up at places like Finsbury Park, Potters Bar or Welwyn for late-running Thameslink trains! We shall have to wait and see how the regulating strategy pans out ..
 

Minstral25

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Thameslink is not just infuriating north of the river. This morning of our three core peak trains from Redhill, one was short formed (6:33) and one cancelled (7:11). This has been the trend for the week (one cancellation, one short formed). In Jan the 6:56 is taken away so even more pressure on the remaining two trains to actually run.
 

paul1609

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Personally, I'd have preferred to spend money on:

1) 4 tracks Digswell to Woolmer Green.
2) More and faster crossovers between slow and fast lines at various locations, with less restrictive signalling. (Some of this may happen over time).
3) Redoubling north of Littleport.
4) Complete segregation of the Hertford service, and segregation of the Welwyn service south of Alexandra Palace.
5) Extending KX Platforms 9-11 to 12 cars (Impossible now the new concourse fills the space).
6) More rolling stock to enable longer trains peak (and off-peak). In the current timetable there are still comparatively few 12-car trains, and plenty of 4-car trains which could be increased to 8 right through the day.
7) Slow lines uplifted to 100 mph where possible to give faster journey times.
8) 12-car platforms at Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North and Knebworth (where possible), and also lengthening at Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton to remove operating constraints.
9) A centre-siding or platform turnback facility at either Letchworth or Royston.
10) At least one convenient passing facility on the Cambridge line.

I suspect that Intercity trains will probably have to *not* get priority as part of any regulating strategy simply to give things any chance of working, but equally I can't envisage Virgin tolerating their trains being held up at places like Finsbury Park, Potters Bar or Welwyn for late-running Thameslink trains! We shall have to wait and see how the regulating strategy pans out ..

I don't think that post Thameslink Disrupted EC trains can be given priority. I think EC customers will have to see a lot of their trains terminating at London Stevenage or London Peterborough.
 

Tetchytyke

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The segragation of the inner-suburban slows has already pretty much taken place, which is why the extra platforms at Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park were built. As for the rest of your wishlist bramling, most of that will be happening with Thameslink.

In day-to-day running the Thameslink core will be fine, the ATO will see to that, so long as there are sufficient dwell times at each station. London Underground manage to operate a more intensive service using the same technology.

When something happens on the core there will be an emergency plan put in place and this will involve short-notice cancellations and diversions. It will involve turning stuff around at St Pancras or Kings Cross. It will only be chaos if they try and operate through the core regardless.

My only worry is that past experience shows that the Thameslink control have a worrying tendency to panic when things go wrong. I sincerely hope they've learned the lessons from Kentish Town but, judging by recent issues, I don't think they have.
 

muddythefish

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I don't think that post Thameslink Disrupted EC trains can be given priority. I think EC customers will have to see a lot of their trains terminating at London Stevenage or London Peterborough.

How long have Stevenage and Peterborough been in London ?
 
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